91 replies to this topic

[Harison07]

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Runestones are such an integral part of character customization in Diablo 3 that letting RNG dictate it is just a bad move. It's just more fun to have all of the options available than to wait for RNG. It'd be like playing Diablo 2 and waiting for a Frozen Orb skill point to drop.

Did you missed the part, where it was said lower level runes would drop like candies? I dont see a problem. If you are unlucky to get even candy, buy in AH for 5 g   So no, character customization is NOT limited by RNG, it can only be limited by laziness. As my post above says, you are actually limited in playstyles till your rune effect unlocks, it might be even after Hell. New system is BS on so many levels.

Edited by Harison07, 20 February 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[coldbladed]

You say you want to have an edge in PvP, but you want that edge to be based on luck while playing in PvE... Why not hone that edge in the form of having more skill instead? Just curious.

[z00tGRUNT]

If anything, we have more options than we did in D2.  Some of the rune effects on skills changes them so drastically that in D2, they would have been a separate skill entirely!  

All runes in D2 did were just making existing skills better, not changing their nature.  The element of finding/crafting the right runes to become the most powerful character possible will still exist in D3, since +runes will be an item affix.  It'll take a long time to fully optimise a particular build, I assure you.

[IgnatiusReilly]

Harison07, on 20 February 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Runestones are such an integral part of character customization in Diablo 3 that letting RNG dictate it is just a bad move. It's just more fun to have all of the options available than to wait for RNG. It'd be like playing Diablo 2 and waiting for a Frozen Orb skill point to drop.

Did you missed the part, where it was said lower level runes would drop like candies? I dont see a problem. If you are unlucky to get even candy, buy in AH for 5 g   So no, character customization is NOT limited by RNG, it can only be limited by laziness. As my post above says, you are actually limited in playstyles till your rune effect unlocks, it might be even after Hell. New system is BS on so many levels.

I referenced this at some point, in some post around here, but whatever, blah...

If they're so easy to get a hold of, whey bother with them at all? You'd farm them all up in a month or so and be at the point a level 60 character would be in the current iteration. Okay, so there's those few elusive 5, 6, 7 runestones to get, but still, we're talking a small increase in power, not really all that exciting to farm for is it? Finding a godly legendary? Awesome. Increase Bash 10%? Meh.

Quote

As my post above says, you are actually limited in playstyles till your rune effect unlocks, it might be even after Hell. New system is BS on so many levels.

You were limited in your playstyle in Diablo 2 before you got your key skills, and we did okay with that. This is no different. Just think of these runestones as your character gaining new skills/power. Certain RPGs limit what your character can do before they reach max level, how is this system suddenly so offensive?

Edited by IgnatiusReilly, 20 February 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[ADre2]

Mortai, on 19 February 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Just because you like to play a certain way doesn't mean the rest of us do. I'd rather be able to play the way I want with the skills and skill runes I want than have to go out into the world and grind for a single rune for hours and hours on end only to find every other rune in existence several times before finding mine. That, sir, does not sound like a good time to me.

Wouldn't this apply to items as well? Why not just let people choose items from a list so everyone can play they way they want instead of grinding for hours and hours to find their equipment? Just saying - maybe his point isn't entirely invalid.

[Harison07]

IgnatiusReilly, on 20 February 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

I referenced this at some point, in some post around here, but whatever, blah...

If they're so easy to get a hold of, whey bother with them at all? You'd farm them all up in a month or so and be at the point a level 60 character would be in the current iteration. Okay, so there's those few elusive 5, 6, 7 runestones to get, but still, we're talking a small increase in power, not really all that exciting to farm for is it? Finding a godly legendary? Awesome. Increase Bash 10%? Meh.

You edited, will address in a sec.

Why bother with drops at all? Strange logic. Why bother with low ranks runes and gear at all, if we get incremental upgrades while leveling? Thats how game works.

As I said before, its fine if you are happy with 4-5 rank runes, some others would hunt for 6-7, thats the idea. Limiting everyone to ONE rank, freely given, is a design catering casuals and ignoring hardcore players, removing part of high-end game.

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I don't think this was an easy choice for Blizzard, (I certainly liked the old idea) but it's clear the pros far outweighed the cons. In regards to my statement about there still being several other items to farm. I'm not saying removing things to find makes the game more fun, but that despite this change for runes, there is still a lot of items to farm for, probably more than Diablo 2 had, so everyone should relax. In the grand scheme of things runes would have been a very minor element of the item hunt simply because they'd offer such a microscopic increase in power.

I think it was same as with Mystic - Blizz was running out of time of yet another internal deadline, so instead of cutting feature completely as they did with the Mystic, they nerfed feature instead, simplified to the extent they could get game out ASAP.

Another major reason - Blizz caters casuals, a LOT of changes lately are focusing on "what casuals would prefer?".

[Alcovitch]

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

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Sure, why farm for runes and other things... why play Diablo at all? Its all about farming. More choices = better. It would take longer and will be harder to make character perfect, I dont want to be just given things.

Runestones are such an integral part of character customization in Diablo 3 that letting RNG dictate it is just a bad move. It's just more fun to have all of the options available than to wait for RNG.

This isn't quite the same as farming for a Zod since that was about gaining immense power, not about gaining the right to customize your character the way you wanted to. Of course, the counter-argument is that getting a rank 7 rune stone IS gainging power, but it'd be such a incosequential increase, it's not worth delegating essential character customization to drops just so you can at some point feel the overwhelming excitement of your Bash doing 5% more damage.

I don't think this was an easy choice for Blizzard, (I certainly liked the old idea) but it's clear the pros far outweighed the cons. In regards to my statement about there still being several other items to farm. I'm not saying removing things to find makes the game more fun, but that despite this change for runes, there is still a lot of items to farm for, probably more than Diablo 2 had, so everyone should relax. In the grand scheme of things runes would have been a very minor element of the item hunt simply because they'd offer such a microscopic increase in power.

Quote

Another point - new system actually restricts the playstyle till we get specific runes for our playstyle. Some are unlocked when we get to 60.

This kind of sucks, yeah.

I guess you missed the whole part where the lower ranks of runes would drop fairly regularly so you can experiment and have your build without much farming. The current system doesn't even allow that since the runes are locked to level progression.

Having the top 2 rune levels dropping in Inferno, making Rank 7 very rare, was an awesome game design! Now, runes might as well be gone completely. It's simply you unlock 100 skills from 1-60. There are no runes anymore. They serve absolutely no purpose in the new system. They have no ranks, they have no color or definition. All it is is a generic rock with a glyph on it instead of a new spell icon. Runes are gone.

[Alcovitch]

IgnatiusReilly, on 20 February 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Harison07, on 20 February 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Runestones are such an integral part of character customization in Diablo 3 that letting RNG dictate it is just a bad move. It's just more fun to have all of the options available than to wait for RNG. It'd be like playing Diablo 2 and waiting for a Frozen Orb skill point to drop.

Did you missed the part, where it was said lower level runes would drop like candies? I dont see a problem. If you are unlucky to get even candy, buy in AH for 5 g   So no, character customization is NOT limited by RNG, it can only be limited by laziness. As my post above says, you are actually limited in playstyles till your rune effect unlocks, it might be even after Hell. New system is BS on so many levels.

I referenced this at some point, in some post around here, but whatever, blah...

If they're so easy to get a hold of, whey bother with them at all? You'd farm them all up in a month or so and be at the point a level 60 character would be in the current iteration. Okay, so there's those few elusive 5, 6, 7 runestones to get, but still, we're talking a small increase in power, not really all that exciting to farm for is it? Finding a godly legendary? Awesome. Increase Bash 10%? Meh.

Quote

As my post above says, you are actually limited in playstyles till your rune effect unlocks, it might be even after Hell. New system is BS on so many levels.

You were limited in your playstyle in Diablo 2 before you got your key skills, and we did okay with that. This is no different. Just think of these runestones as your character gaining new skills/power. Certain RPGs limit what your character can do before they reach max level, how is this system suddenly so offensive?

IgnatiusReilly, on 20 February 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

Harison07, on 20 February 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Runestones are such an integral part of character customization in Diablo 3 that letting RNG dictate it is just a bad move. It's just more fun to have all of the options available than to wait for RNG. It'd be like playing Diablo 2 and waiting for a Frozen Orb skill point to drop.

Did you missed the part, where it was said lower level runes would drop like candies? I dont see a problem. If you are unlucky to get even candy, buy in AH for 5 g   So no, character customization is NOT limited by RNG, it can only be limited by laziness. As my post above says, you are actually limited in playstyles till your rune effect unlocks, it might be even after Hell. New system is BS on so many levels.

I referenced this at some point, in some post around here, but whatever, blah...

If they're so easy to get a hold of, whey bother with them at all? You'd farm them all up in a month or so and be at the point a level 60 character would be in the current iteration. Okay, so there's those few elusive 5, 6, 7 runestones to get, but still, we're talking a small increase in power, not really all that exciting to farm for is it? Finding a godly legendary? Awesome. Increase Bash 10%? Meh.

Quote

As my post above says, you are actually limited in playstyles till your rune effect unlocks, it might be even after Hell. New system is BS on so many levels.

You were limited in your playstyle in Diablo 2 before you got your key skills, and we did okay with that. This is no different. Just think of these runestones as your character gaining new skills/power. Certain RPGs limit what your character can do before they reach max level, how is this system suddenly so offensive?

Fail logic. Whats the point of any of the loot in the game then? Why farm and collect level 14 gems when the level 13's are almost as good?

The idea is that most people could easily get the lower 5 ranks of runes and have fun. Those that play Inferno will NEED the extra 2 ranks (as stated by blizzard before this fiasco change).

If you don't care about the slight boost in power, then you probably don't care to play Inferno either.

[Harison07]

IgnatiusReilly, on 20 February 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

You were limited in your playstyle in Diablo 2 before you got your key skills, and we did okay with that. This is no different. Just think of these runestones as your character gaining new skills/power. Certain RPGs limit what your character can do before they reach max level, how is this system suddenly so offensive?

Thats because if something better was mentioned, and we given worse, fans might get annoyed of bait-and-switch. Old system gave more flexibility, new does not.

[KageKaze]

I'm sorry, but I don't see the needing to hit a certain level to unlock a rune as being that bad.  How is it different from needing to be a certain level to unlock a skill?  Either way, you won't have your full toolbox until max level.  You can argue that you got everything before max level before, but then I ask what was the point of having levels beyond 30?  A shiny ding and more mana?  For all intents and purposes, level 30 was then the max level.  It's just spread out more and you'll have all the stuff you need to fight in inferno.

Also, losing the runes as drops does not mean the game will have any less cool drops to find.  We have more armor types now and more items than D2 had.  I think people also forget that Charms and Runes didn't drop in D2 until Lord of Destruction and the game did just fine.

[Argency]

Alcovitch, on 20 February 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Fail logic. Whats the point of any of the loot in the game then? Why farm and collect level 14 gems when the level 13's are almost as good?

No you're using fail logic.  This argument is known as the slippery slope fallacy - he's arguing that a particular incremental increase in power was negligible, and you're applying this to the whole game and trying to make it look like his argument implies that since most increases in character power are incremental, they're all negligible.  Suggesting that one incremental increase added little to the game is not the same as suggesting that all incremental increases should be removed.  Also...

ADre2, on 20 February 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

Mortai, on 19 February 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Just because you like to play a certain way doesn't mean the rest of us do. I'd rather be able to play the way I want with the skills and skill runes I want than have to go out into the world and grind for a single rune for hours and hours on end only to find every other rune in existence several times before finding mine. That, sir, does not sound like a good time to me.

Wouldn't this apply to items as well? Why not just let people choose items from a list so everyone can play they way they want instead of grinding for hours and hours to find their equipment? Just saying - maybe his point isn't entirely invalid.

I'm not sure that's a valid argument.  No one is suggesting that one extreme or the other is the best option here - clearly having everything given to you at the start of the game is just as silly as having nothing at all given to you and having to grind for everything.  Mortai thinks that getting given runes on level up is closer to the happy medium than having to grind for them, and he shouldn't have to defend one extreme in order to justify his argument.

[IgnatiusReilly]

Quote

Having the top 2 rune levels dropping in Inferno, making Rank 7 very rare, was an awesome game design!

It was, becasue we like searching for stuff. But exactly how awesome would finding a rune that makes one skill slightly stronger be exactly? I think my reasoning is that this isn't really as big a blow as people think.

Quote

Now, runes might as well be gone completely.

The entire goal of rune stones has always been to majorly affect the skils you have in meaningful ways, that's still very much intact.

Quote

Thats because if something better was mentioned, and we given worse, fans might get annoyed of bait-and-switch. Old system gave more flexibility, new does not.

This is very true. The psychological effect of such actions are hard to brush aside. But that's on Blizzard. Years of iteration will piss a lot of people off and for good reason.

@Argency: Nice post. You said it a lot better than I could have.

Edited by IgnatiusReilly, 20 February 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[Fallacy]

If you ever knew anything about diablo 2, Magic Find had nothing to do with rune drops! It might seem like there is alot missing right now, but this course of action will be better for the game in the end, imo.

[Harison07]

KageKaze, on 20 February 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but I don't see the needing to hit a certain level to unlock a rune as being that bad.  

Its not THAT bad, its just casual, and clearly worse than it could have been, on many levels.

KageKaze, on 20 February 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

Also, losing the runes as drops does not mean the game will have any less cool drops to find.  We have more armor types now and more items than D2 had.  I think people also forget that Charms and Runes didn't drop in D2 until Lord of Destruction and the game did just fine.

It means exactly that - game will have less cool drops to find. Your comparison with D2 has nothing to do with the topic, we comparing D3 old runes vs D3 new runes.

About game doing just fine - sure, game will do "just fine" with runes removed completely, and gems too. Mystic already gone, so are cube and cauldron. Blizz could remove Inferno too, D2 did just fine without it, right?

[Crysto37]

Ok i read all post from this topic and i must say more then half are so retarded and cant even express myself, all those newcomers think they understand shit in fact they are just derping around here and there saying nonsense.

The OP is so right, i will resume this again for lesser minds:
i keep reading: its no difference, nothing changed.. really ?

- All skills have rank 4 now so less customization, you will say whats the point to have 7 ranks you will all use the last rank, well determination and farm is equal to power this way game separate noobs from pro, no one is forcing you to have a rank 7 you could play with rank 5 also there is AH for trading runes and shit so if it doesnt drop you will still trade it.

- Weapon is the only way to make skills hit harder (skills based on weapon damage) if no, level wont make your available skills stronger only unlocks more skills thus making similar character level equal in power.

- Build can be change every 15 sec enough said here

Overall its not the same, is a dump down version of the old system if you don`t care and act like your cool anyway then Torchlight is for you my friend.

[Harison07]

Argency, on 20 February 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

No you're using fail logic.  This argument is known as the slippery slope fallacy - he's arguing that a particular incremental increase in power was negligible, and you're applying this to the whole game and trying to make it look like his argument implies that since most increases in character power are incremental, they're all negligible.  Suggesting that one incremental increase added little to the game is not the same as suggesting that all incremental increases should be removed.  

Rune as items had incremental power increases same as gear items, his logic applies why Igantius logic isnt. Bottom line - hardcore players would pursue runes/items in Inferno, even if their increase in power was negligible.

[Trance]

How could they take away stuff from "us" when the game ain't even released? Makes me wonder.

[1up_Mush]

Don't feed the trolls.

[KageKaze]

Harison07, on 20 February 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Its not THAT bad, its just casual, and clearly worse than it could have been, on many levels.

How is that casual?  you actually have to level up more to get the stuff you want where as before (if you assume runes were common to drop) you could have every build you wanted early without much effort.  I therefore state, by this logic, that the game is more hardcore.  And honestly, every RPG has you wait for certain levels to get the cool stuff you want, I really don't see this decision being EITHER hardcore or casual.

I also think people keep misunderstanding what casual means in games now adays...

Harison07, on 20 February 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

It means exactly that - game will have less cool drops to find. Your comparison with D2 has nothing to do with the topic, we comparing D3 old runes vs D3 new runes.

About game doing just fine - sure, game will do "just fine" with runes removed completely, and gems too. Mystic already gone, so are cube and cauldron. Blizz could remove Inferno too, D2 did just fine without it, right?

Ah, but less cool drops to find compared to... what exactly?  Diablo 3?  So you're comparing Diablo 3 to Diablo 3 but not to Diablo 2.  There are more items in this game than in Diablo 2 just with the basic armor types.  And with random affixes this means there are already a lot of loot options.

As for removing inferno, yes I think D3 could be fine without it because then act 4 would be the difficult act, however blizzard saw fit to give us inferno for cool factor and to give us more content.  This alone should show that there's plenty of items and stuff to find without even needing runes.

The implementation of over 3500 runes also took up game space/memory that could be used for other projects and features.  Granted you could bring it down to 35 runes (7 levels x 5 runes) but I honestly don't think I want to clutter my inventory with a bunch of runes every time I want to experiment with a new build.

Also, to compare Diablo 2 + Xpack to Diablo 3's base game is kind of unfair.  Diablo 3 can always re-add any of these features in expansion material.  The game doesn't need to have EVERY cool idea come out at once.

I think if blizzard had never told us any of this stuff.. if none of you knew what was being "taken away" from you, you would have played diablo 3 on release day perfectly happy.  Unfortunately this is the consequence of open game design, people start to feel like they are losing something in a game when in fact we never really had them, because they were never in the real game and never in the beta.  There's a sense of entitlement that occurs and I think it really throws off people's judgement.

Edited by KageKaze, 20 February 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[Rhou]

yeah because once u start feeding them, they keep coming back for more.