91 replies to this topic

[KageKaze]

asfastasican, on 19 February 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I didn't enjoy Diablo 2 because of the Baal run end-game. I enjoyed it because I had fun making multiple characters and trying new things, seeing if they were viable or not.

Amen, brother.  90% of my D2 experience was rerolling characters to see what a new build could do.  Now i can change builds on the fly, saves me a lot of time and effort to see if I'm going to like it.  Making a bad build in D2 usually meant a character wipe and starting from scratch again.

[Shmark]

There is still going to be so much more skill customization and combinations than in D2 that it's not even funny. However, I can understand that if you really loved grinding for items how this system sucks. My guess is that these people are going to be in the minority, though, as a lot of players don't consider this a plus for a game. Let's hope that Blizzard provides enough gear diversity for those who love the grind.

My expectation for D3 is that item-hunting will play a significant role but that successfully completing the higher difficulties (and playing effectively in PvP) will also rely heavily on how you play your character, possibly more so than in the previous games.

I kind of wish that Blizzard hadn't revealed anything about these systems before they were 100% set, though. If you saw skill runes for the first time today without any prior knowledge of the development process, you'd think it was the most awesome thing ever to come to Diablo.

Edited by Shmark, 19 February 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[akse]

I disliked Magic Finding or item hunting in D2. What I liked to do was to go out soloing monsters randomly in an area I would gain exp. It was always nice to get some good item drops in that way. I'm liking how things will be with D3 so far.

The rune thing is ok. It would have been nice to collect those too but it would make it very tedious to try out different skill combinations. And also it would be hard at the start to get all the runes you wanted.

[madmaxII]

I really have no problem with that change. Keep in mind that there is enough other stuff that you can collect. Why would you bother about those runes? Getting good gear will cost you some time anyways - you can start complaing again when you have equipped all of your chars ^^.

[snared04drummer]

Uh...

Did you play Diablo II?  At all?

Magic find doesn't nor ever did help with finding runes.  MF has nothing to do with finding runes.  And I rather doubt it would have had an impact on finding them in Diablo III either.

Secondly, they changed absolutely nothing about skills other than the UI, which most people reacted very negatively to, so I can see them changing it, or at least having the old UI for people that use Elective Mode.

Third, the changes to the runes (other than one thing that I'll detail in a second) were ultimately very necessary.  Runes in Diablo II could be mixed with one another and hopefully, eventually, popped into an item to be made useful.  In Diablo III you could put, at most, one in at a time, and supposedly they never got deleted.  So you could potentially have 150 runes (30 skills X 5 runes) sitting around, PER CHARACTER, not to mention rune quality level.

I'm not overly excited that I won't have to find them any more, but it's not like they're robbing of us gameplay.

Finally, if you want to mention an actual problem with the new rune system, then say this:  As is, the different runes are now available at spread out level checkpoints, but you don't get to pick that order.  For instance, the rune I wanted to use for cleave isn't available until level 38... meaning I won't get to use it until like halfway through nightmare, where before I could have concievably found it a rune pretty early in normal.  To me, that's the only big downside of this new system.

[jrc1337]

snared04drummer, on 19 February 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Uh...

Did you play Diablo II?  At all?

Magic find doesn't nor ever did help with finding runes.  MF has nothing to do with finding runes.  And I rather doubt it would have had an impact on finding them in Diablo III either.

Secondly, they changed absolutely nothing about skills other than the UI, which most people reacted very negatively to, so I can see them changing it, or at least having the old UI for people that use Elective Mode.

Third, the changes to the runes (other than one thing that I'll detail in a second) were ultimately very necessary.  Runes in Diablo II could be mixed with one another and hopefully, eventually, popped into an item to be made useful.  In Diablo III you could put, at most, one in at a time, and supposedly they never got deleted.  So you could potentially have 150 runes (30 skills X 5 runes) sitting around, PER CHARACTER, not to mention rune quality level.

I'm not overly excited that I won't have to find them any more, but it's not like they're robbing of us gameplay.

Finally, if you want to mention an actual problem with the new rune system, then say this:  As is, the different runes are now available at spread out level checkpoints, but you don't get to pick that order.  For instance, the rune I wanted to use for cleave isn't available until level 38... meaning I won't get to use it until like halfway through nightmare, where before I could have concievably found it a rune pretty early in normal.  To me, that's the only big downside of this new system.

i played diablo 2 since the day it came out and im still playing, im saying the thrill of finding new items and things to customize your character is fun. having runes given to you already seems too easy. i guess its less to worry about but whats next? the vendors will sell legendary items for gold? so we can all be the same. pro.

[Drkclone]

I will agree with how to select/change your skills is bull.  I never saw a need to change it and I feel that they are aiming for pets to also play D3.  I only say that because I feel that you learn enough at the beginning to know what skills do what and thus, don't need a carebear system to help you.

But I have to disagree on the runes.  I like the change because it allows you to focus on gems, armor, and weapons instead of also runes.  With getting your character geared properly will most likely take up most of our time, taking runes out of the itemization helps relieve a bit of the stress of farming.  While I wish it was still an item, I like it better as not an item so as I got less to worry about.

[Drat3r]

y u make such threads? y?


.. But seriosly, this is stupid.

[Ragecow]

The change doesn't make characters less different. You and another barb will still most likely have very different rune combinations. It's just that now, everyone will be able to pick their runes without having to farm for them.

[zagon187]

You aren't losing anything with the change.  What did runes do in D2?  They created gear and were used in recipes.  How is taking runes away any different than D2?  Jay Wilson even said they added 3 new character gear slots(shoulders, bracers, pants).  Nothing is being lost here other than more difficulty in creating your character.   This game is heavily based on gear and at Blizzcon last year Jay wilson said that if the build you choose isn't working(assuming you're gearing towards that build) then they got something to fix.

[Harison07]

Fact is, new rune system is extremely simplified and 100% casual friendly. Also instead of additional runes as items hunting (massive time, gold, and maybe $ sink), we got free runes. Remember "free epics" joke from the WoW? New runes system takes it to a whole new level, devs just gave them to us.

Personally I wanted to hunt, farm or buy/sell runes in AH. It would give us another dimension and a reason to spend more time in D3. It would give us extra complexity, a sense of accomplishment and progress through 7 ranks of runes.

The only cons I've heard was inventory space. Easy fix - bring back removed stash space, problem solved.

Another argument for the new rune system "getting something till 60, thus feeling progression" is invalid. Since different ranks of runes drops in different levels, we would get an excitement of finding them while progressing till 60 (plus farming Inferno for a super rare 7th), and since runes are of 7 ranks, we would actually FEEL the progression. Not ONE rank per rune effect, total. Thats not progression, thats anti-progression, compared to what was planned earlier.

Lets not forget, we (or at least I will) spend 99,9999% of my D3 playing time in 60lvl, high-end, why would I care about if "leveling was rewarding enough?". I care if high-end is rewarding enough. Blizz just nerfed another major feature, and this will cut another area for personal progress, lessen economy, diminish customization, etc.

Unlocking bread-crumbs of ONE rank of simplified "rune system for dummies" till 60 isnt a real progress, its Blizz desire to cater casuals, and get the game out ASAP, even if it means they would have to cut or simplify everything else.

That said, if this rune system ships game sooner, I'm fine with it. Its better to have nerfed and dumbed down runes, than another n runes iterations, postponing game for God-knows how long.

Edited by Harison07, 19 February 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[IgnatiusReilly]

Because runes were so complicated before?

If you didn't think you'd have found all the runes you needed within a month of play, you're delusional.

"Yeah dude. I totally got a build in mind, but I haven't been able to find the rune I need in months!" Yeah, that wasn't going to happen, and if it did, it goes against the customization most people enjoy in games like this. You should be glad, the customization is ready to go at max level as opposed to whenever the random number generator decides to throw you a bone.

I loved the rune drop system just as much as anyone, but it's pretty clear it was deeply flawed.

70% of the items in this game are found beyond normal, with a large chunk being found in Inferno only. Trust me, there'll be plenty of stuff to farm for.

Quote

Fact is, new rune system is extremely simplified and 100% casual friendly. Also instead of additional runes as items hunting (massive time, gold, and maybe $ sink), we got free runes. Remember "free epics" joke from the WoW? New runes system takes it to a whole new level, devs just gave them to us.

I don't think forcing people to farm for essential elements to make the build they want is a valid way to make the game more challenging, especially when experimentation with runes is such a key part of the customization in Diablo 3. I also don't agree with "dumbing down". It's not hard to figure out that when a higher level rune drops, you should probably use that one, at least until your prefered high level rune drops, in which case you'll use that one. Eventually all the high level runes you wanted drop, and we're finally at the point where this new system puts us without having to rely on RNG.

Both systems have equal amount of complexity, it's just that one requires you to farm an extra 2 weeks.

Edited by IgnatiusReilly, 19 February 2012 - 11:19 PM.

[Odin]

What else did you expect? These guys have no clue how to handle the franchise and all their ideas are based on typing much but saying nothing despite "too complex" this will be the most braindead game ever released.

zero customization
zero challenge
zero death penalties
zero LAN
zero offline mode

Looks like Blizzard is cutting costs and trying to meat Activisions deadline here *lol*

[IgnatiusReilly]

Odin, on 19 February 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Looks like Blizzard is cutting costs and trying to meat Activisions deadline here *lol*

I agree. This game could use another few years to polish things up. A blatant rush job/cash grab.

Your arguments are also really boring. I could offer my opinion in list format too, doesn't mean it's an actual argument.

You really want to dig up the LAN thing? Wasn't that horse beaten then cremated a year ago?

Edited by IgnatiusReilly, 19 February 2012 - 11:40 PM.

[Mccormick]

Odin, on 19 February 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

What else did you expect? These guys have no clue how to handle the franchise and all their ideas are based on typing much but saying nothing despite "too complex" this will be the most braindead game ever released.

zero customization
zero challenge
zero death penalties
zero LAN
zero offline mode

Looks like Blizzard is cutting costs and trying to meat Activisions deadline here *lol*

You're really being harsh

There is customisation, there will be challenge in later difficulties, agreed death penalty is low, online only has its good reasons.

Also, no idea how to handle the franchise?  This is one of the biggest gaming companies in the world o.O

[KageKaze]

Odin, on 19 February 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

What else did you expect? These guys have no clue how to handle the franchise and all their ideas are based on typing much but saying nothing despite "too complex" this will be the most braindead game ever released.

zero customization

approximately 20 skills per class with 5 variants on each skill gives you about 100 skill sets to choose from, of which you can only have 6 equipped at one time.  Add to that around 15 passives of which you can only have 3.  Seems like very non-zero numbers to me.

Odin, on 19 February 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

zero challenge

We are seeing 1/3 of the easiest part of the game, the tutorial if you will.  Speculation about challenge when we don't know what the other difficulties are like is honestly, pretty silly.

Odin, on 19 February 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

zero death penalties

You do lose durability which costs gold, and gold is supposed to be more valuable now.  Beyond that, I can't say much here.  All I can say is that running back to try and get my body without any weapons or items was a pain in the ass.  I'd usually just log out and back in to get my body back into town, especially since I didn't want to risk losing some items from dying again.  They just saved me the trouble of having to log out to do it, so I really don't see too much of a problem here.

Odin, on 19 February 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

zero LAN
zero offline mode

I'll give you these, I really would like to have offline mode to play on my laptop.  However, to help secure the game especially with the RMAH going live, I can kind of understand why.  It'll suck when I'm on the go, but 90% of my playtime is at home so it won't really affect me that much.

Odin, on 19 February 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Looks like Blizzard is cutting costs and trying to meat Activisions deadline here *lol*

If that were really the case, the game would be out already.

[Harison07]

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

70% of the items in this game are found beyond normal, with a large chunk being found in Inferno only. Trust me, there'll be plenty of stuff to farm for.

Lets follow your logic:

"Lets remove Mystic, there'll still be plenty of stuff to farm for."
"Lets remove Rune drops, there'll still be plenty of stuff to farm for."
"Lets remove Gems, there'll still be plenty of stuff to farm for."

Do you see where its going? Less items to farm for is NOT better.

IgnatiusReilly, on 19 February 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

I don't think forcing people to farm for essential elements to make the build they want is a valid way to make the game more challenging, especially when experimentation with runes is such a key part of the customization in Diablo 3. I also don't agree with "dumbing down". It's not hard to figure out that when a higher level rune drops, you should probably use that one, at least until your prefered high level rune drops, in which case you'll use that one. Eventually all the high level runes you wanted drop, and we're finally at the point where this new system puts us without having to rely on RNG.

Both systems have equal amount of complexity, it's just that one requires you to farm an extra 2 weeks.

Sure, why farm for runes and other things... why play Diablo at all? Its all about farming. More choices = better. It would take longer and will be harder to make character perfect, I dont want to be just given things.

I see you dont like farming, and there is nothing wrong with that - you could happily play with easily accessible Rank 5 rune (which is just given now), while more hardcore players would try to get Ranks 6-7. New system restricts everyone to the same ONE rank, previous would accomodate everyone - from uber casuals to super hardcore.

And yes, its as simplified system as it gets. Everything is given to you on the plate, instead of actual effort to farm, buy/sell, trade.

RNG - absolutely, thats the beauty of Diablo franchise. If you are unlucky/lazy, just trade for it, EXACTLY the same as gear. Now we will have to spend less time and effort to max our chars, how is that better?

Edited by Harison07, 19 February 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[EngageQuadLaser]

You heard it here first guys; runes as items? SUPER SKILLFUL AND INTELLIGENT! But making them auto-earned on level? Clearly DUMBING DOWN. Because of course, waiting around for an item to drop? That requires EXTREME INTELLIGENCE AND 1337 SKILLS!

And clearly we lost ALL OUR CUSTOMIZATION in the process! Before we had 5 runes for each skil! And now we have... 5 runes for each skill... BUT IT'S TOTALLY DUBMED DOWN U GUYS!1!!!!!

Blizzard this are teh slap in meh face!!!!11!!

[Harison07]

Another point - new system actually restricts the playstyle till we get specific runes for our playstyle. Some are unlocked when we get to 60.

With previous system you could start with lower rank runes, gradually get stronger and stronger, till go beyond what new system is capable. That was beautiful. New runes are just forced bread-crumbs unlocks just to "fill" the leveling, even if you have to play playstyle you dont want to.

Edited by Harison07, 19 February 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[IgnatiusReilly]

Quote

Sure, why farm for runes and other things... why play Diablo at all? Its all about farming. More choices = better. It would take longer and will be harder to make character perfect, I dont want to be just given things.

Runestones are such an integral part of character customization in Diablo 3 that letting RNG dictate it is just a bad move. It's just more fun to have all of the options available than to wait for RNG.

This isn't quite the same as farming for a Zod since that was about gaining immense power, not about gaining the right to customize your character the way you wanted to. Of course, the counter-argument is that getting a rank 7 rune stone IS gainging power, but it'd be such a incosequential increase, it's not worth delegating essential character customization to drops just so you can at some point feel the overwhelming excitement of your Bash doing 5% more damage.

I don't think this was an easy choice for Blizzard, (I certainly liked the old idea) but it's clear the pros far outweighed the cons. In regards to my statement about there still being several other items to farm. I'm not saying removing things to find makes the game more fun, but that despite this change for runes, there is still a lot of items to farm for, probably more than Diablo 2 had, so everyone should relax. In the grand scheme of things runes would have been a very minor element of the item hunt simply because they'd offer such a microscopic increase in power.

Quote

Another point - new system actually restricts the playstyle till we get specific runes for our playstyle. Some are unlocked when we get to 60.

This kind of sucks, yeah.

Edited by IgnatiusReilly, 20 February 2012 - 12:07 AM.