56 replies to this topic

[Rorance]

Just wanted a topic where Monks like me and you can discuss the positives and negatives of using the different types of weapons available to us and the builds to support the play style of our main and offhand item choices.

2 Handed weapons will have higher end damage, making skills like Seven Sided Strike do significantly more damage per cast, but also have the negative side effect of not being able to generate spirit as fast due to the slower attack speed.



Dual Wielding will make spanning skills like Lashing Tail Kick a lot easier due to higher spirit generation over all but each time you cast it will cause less damage then a 2 Handed weapon. Another bonus is being able to have weapons in each hand with significantly different affixes and all the amazing things that that entails.

  - For people who don't know, you alternate between weapons when attacking or using a skill whilst Dual Wielding. Example being if you have a fist weapon in your right hand that deals fire damage and a fist weapon in your left hand that deals ice damage, the first cast of a spirit generator will hit with your right hand weapon, dealing fire damage, the next click will deal ice damage.

  - AFd3 (Post #10) Brings up a good point about The Guardian's Path passive effects being multiplicative so the higher your dodge is the lower the effect of the passive is, making it less and less effective the more you stack dodge.

- Armada Gaming has recently put up video's explaining some intricacies of dual wielding and are definitely worth a watch no matter what weapon set up you plan on using, subscribe to his channel as he puts up lots of informative and entertaining video's.






1 Handed Weapon and Shield has the bonus of significantly increasing your armour and in turn your ability to survive engagements. It will lack the diversity of having two weapons and most likely some offensive stats and affixes, but in turn gaining access to more defensive affixes, like resistances.

  - Example of how much armour a shield will give you. The highest armour I found on the official website for any piece of armour accesible to the Monk at any level is a chest piece from the Monk set Inna's Majesty http://us.battle.net...em/innas-refuge (High end armour of 457)
The highest armour I found on the shields is from Stormshield http://us.battle.net...tem/stormshield (High end armour of 1,059)

  - Also with the inclusion of a more defensive item over an offensive item, it's possible it will have such a great affect as to free up a defensive skill slot or rune for a more offensive one.



I will keep the main post updated with the facts and opinions of the posters so people can come in and look at the first post or two and be caught up and not have to sift through pages and pages of posts if they don't want to.





*Obviously everything in this thread is speculative as items and skills aren't final. This is purely to discuss your opinion and why you think one weapon type is more advantageous to your play style and skill set over another. Nobody is wrong so please try to defend your opinion as such, best case scenario is you make somebody question their choice and open their eyes to alternative play styles that they otherwise wouldn't have noticed.

Edited by Rorance, 29 February 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Rorance]

*Reserved in the hopes the thread becomes a helpful resource of information*

[Rorance]

I will personally be aiming to use 2 handed weapons as it supports my build I will be aiming for and the mentality I will have which can be summed up with the terms Guerrilla Warfare, Mobility, and Support/Survivability.


Build : http://us.battle.net...gVjU!adb!ZcaZZZ

Obviously the build is very speculative and most definitely not the only one I've thought of and will change as I play the game to accompany the play style's of those I play with the majority of the time. I will now try to put each skill in one of the three category's I've listed for myself, as that is the theme I want to follow and will always try to justify any choice I've made and wrangle it in towards that central structure.

Guerrilla Warfare : Simply to be able to hit hard and fast, dumping all my Spirit as quickly as possible and being able to retreat and generate my Spirit back up effectively. This alone is the reason I will be choosing 2 handed weapons, as they allow my spirit dumps hit like a truck

Way of the Hundred fists falls under this category simply for the Blazing Fists effect, which increases movement and attack speed, allowing me to regenerate my spirit that much faster and be where I need to be easier. Also the high percent weapon damage is a bit higher then other generators.

Wave of Light is my main Spirit dump, it does an immense amount of damage in a short period of time, 480% weapon damage over a decent area in about 2 seconds with a 2 handed weapon will surely leave a mark. Pillar of the ancients rune affect will allow me to cast the skill and run away while it does the remaining damage, casting 2-3 consecutively will surely lay the hurt

Which leads me to Seven Sided Strike, it's another high percent damage skill to take advantage of the high damage of my 2 handed weapon. Adding the Sudden Assault rune affect adds to the damage, 1007% up from 777%, but more importantly gives me the ability to teleport to the location I need to be. Also the cooldown is actually beneficial as it gives time to build up my Spirit.

Mobility : This category has some obvious over lap with the previous, but I think it's extremely important so I gave it it's own category, not only to emphasize how important it is to others, but to remind myself how much of a pillar it is to my build.

The Sudden Assault affect on Seven Sides Strike, I don't need to get into any more depth as I've previously discussed this.

Same goes for the Blazing Fists on Way of the Hundred Fists.

I chose the passive Fleet footed, there may seem to be more beneficial passive's, and you are probably right. If I find myself getting hit too hard or getting killed at all, I will change it to a more defensive passive, but as it stands now it falls in line with what i'm holding important the general philosophy of the build.

Support/Survivability : You can't deal damage if you are dead and neither can your team. There are many ways to go about supporting your team and keeping them alive, and I chose to focus on directly affecting the damage my team deals and receives with a touch of hindering mobility.

Crippling wave was chosen to be the third strike of my spirit generator combo's. This will briefly slow the movement of the enemies effected allowing me or my team to easier run away or simply keeping them away from the ranged focused characters. It will also benefit my melee team mates as they will be able to run down the pesky mobs that flee And of course they will do less damage with the Concussion rune affect, which helps everyone in a very obvious way.

Picking a Mantra is one of the more difficult choices a Monk has to make in my opinion, I went with Mantra of Conviction with the Intimidation rune affect. This adds to the support and survivability in 2 obvious ways, monsters deal less damage and allies deal more damage, making the fights shorter. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense

I chose the Resolve passive as i'll be doing a decent amount of AoE damage and will be in the thick of things, getting to where I need to be and putting the hurt on while making mobs deal a significantly less amount of damage in combination with Crippling Wave.

I put Serenity in the last spot simply because it was cheap and is generally more of a filler at the moment. I always like to leave one skill slot empty while making a build so I can go into the actual game with a build and have freedom to choose a skill to make up for what i'm lacking, whether it be spirit generation, survivability, mobility or even damage. Though I do love the Reap What is Sown rune affect for when i'm being focused

Edited by Rorance, 28 February 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[D4rkBl4ze]

Im going to be going for up front damage to support my heavy dps build. With inferno I suspect I will have to swap some things around to suit a bit more survivability (dodge/heals/etc..), but thats fine. The 2 handers are still going to be my focus, paired with +attack speed. Should rip through things..

[bidmal]

Dual Wielding, coz passive +10% dodge is what i'd prefer in HC

[mazingerz]

It probably wont be practical, but I love the carrying that spiked tree trunk of a weapon.

(whoops, monk forum.

Edited by mazingerz, 16 February 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[AFd3]

1 hander with shield or a diabo for me. I originally wanted to use 2 handed swords until I found out monks can't use em'.

Edited by AFd3, 16 February 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Nodnarb]

Fortunately or Unfortunately depdending on how you look at it... Your weapon will be what ever u find that is better than what you have.  There is no point in really stating that you will use a sword and a shield because with the way it is. If you find a two handeed maul that has the qualities of both of those you will use it instead.  Ideally, I'd like to think that i could be a Maul and shield barb (picturing baranars starr and stormshield form d2-but juiced up)  But like I said, who's to say i dont craft a NASTY knife and stick with it.-- No skill tree = freedom to switch on the fly

...sorry i thought this was an all char question, no matter same answer minus class specific weapons

Edited by Nodnarb, 16 February 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[3d_Andersson]

I will probably go with two handers as a barbarian. I just love the concept of being really strong and I want to see my enemies fly away when I swing my two hander. I know they'll fly from one handers as well, but it seems cooler to me with a two hander. Then again, I'll probably go with whatever I have until I find a good two hander.

[AFd3]

Nodnarb, on 16 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Your weapon will be what ever u find that is better than what you have.  There is no point in really stating that you will use a sword and a shield...

Not exactly, the weapons you choose are a big part in decided how you play and what skills you should use. If you feel the skills are more important than you will compromise on the items to make them compliment the skills. If you feel itemization is most important then you will tune your skills to suit the best items you have.

Shields usually have more armor than your torso armor at the same levels. It's too much armor to pass up (it's that missing last bit of defense I need to feel safe) for me and the %chance to block combined with a high evasion chance is going to annoying for my enemies. You're assumption is very true for the earlier part of the games but as it starts to get challenging you weapons are going to have to match your play-style/build nicely.

Also dual-wielding is powerful but I don't see the same allure of gaurdian's path that everyone else does. I think duel wielding is powerful because you can use the effects of 2 weapons on your enemies (ex life-steal on one weapon and stun on the other) but that +10% dodge isn't always going to be so great. If you are already using evasion and have high dexterity that 10% will actually end up giving you a net increase of 5-7% (or less) chance to dodge which isn't all that great. I see a lot of people want to stack evasion, guardian's path and sixth sense but by using all three skills together you lessen their individual dodge effects a little. I don't see an increase from 40% to 45% dodge (as an example) as being attractive enough to use the guardian path passive even if I really like dual wielding. I would prefer to use another defensive passive to buff another aspect of my character's defense.

[Rym]

I have always liked maces, swords and fist weapons. Id be happy with a sword in main hand and fist weapon in my off hand , in my perfect world... Id use really what ever one handed weapons come my way.

[andidevi]

Nodnarb, on 16 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Fortunately or Unfortunately depdending on how you look at it... Your weapon will be what ever u find that is better than what you have.  There is no point in really stating that you will use a sword and a shield because with the way it is. If you find a two handeed maul that has the qualities of both of those you will use it instead.  Ideally, I'd like to think that i could be a Maul and shield barb (picturing baranars starr and stormshield form d2-but juiced up)  But like I said, who's to say i dont craft a NASTY knife and stick with it.-- No skill tree = freedom to switch on the fly

...sorry i thought this was an all char question, no matter same answer minus class specific weapons

smart thinking

[azuresky808]

Dibow all the way, unless I'm tanking >.>

[Rorance]

AFd3, on 16 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Nodnarb, on 16 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Your weapon will be what ever u find that is better than what you have.  There is no point in really stating that you will use a sword and a shield...

Not exactly, the weapons you choose are a big part in decided how you play and what skills you should use. If you feel the skills are more important than you will compromise on the items to make them compliment the skills. If you feel itemization is most important then you will tune your skills to suit the best items you have.

Shields usually have more armor than your torso armor at the same levels. It's too much armor to pass up (it's that missing last bit of defense I need to feel safe) for me and the %chance to block combined with a high evasion chance is going to annoying for my enemies. You're assumption is very true for the earlier part of the games but as it starts to get challenging you weapons are going to have to match your play-style/build nicely.

Also dual-wielding is powerful but I don't see the same allure of gaurdian's path that everyone else does. I think duel wielding is powerful because you can use the effects of 2 weapons on your enemies (ex life-steal on one weapon and stun on the other) but that +10% dodge isn't always going to be so great. If you are already using evasion and have high dexterity that 10% will actually end up giving you a net increase of 5-7% (or less) chance to dodge which isn't all that great. I see a lot of people want to stack evasion, guardian's path and sixth sense but by using all three skills together you lessen their individual dodge effects a little. I don't see an increase from 40% to 45% dodge (as an example) as being attractive enough to use the guardian path passive even if I really like dual wielding. I would prefer to use another defensive passive to buff another aspect of my character's defense.

I agree completely, but to play devil's advocate, which I will always try to do in this thread no matter how much I agree, what if Guardian's Path adds 10% to your base dodge and doesn't effect the multiplicative nature of +dodge from other means? Such as the dodge you get from dex and +dodge stat.

So, to use your example, if you have 40% chance to dodge from your items Guardian's Path would bump you up to 50%. It would always give you a +10% chance to dodge no matter what, unless it would bring you over the assumed cap.

[Rorance]

Nodnarb, on 16 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Fortunately or Unfortunately depdending on how you look at it... Your weapon will be what ever u find that is better than what you have.  There is no point in really stating that you will use a sword and a shield because with the way it is. If you find a two handeed maul that has the qualities of both of those you will use it instead.  Ideally, I'd like to think that i could be a Maul and shield barb (picturing baranars starr and stormshield form d2-but juiced up)  But like I said, who's to say i dont craft a NASTY knife and stick with it.-- No skill tree = freedom to switch on the fly

...sorry i thought this was an all char question, no matter same answer minus class specific weapons

That's why I put up that last option, some people like to play focusing on items and others like to focus on skills, I think AFd3 summed it up pretty well in his response

3d_Andersson, on 16 February 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

I will probably go with two handers as a barbarian. I just love the concept of being really strong and I want to see my enemies fly away when I swing my two hander. I know they'll fly from one handers as well, but it seems cooler to me with a two hander. Then again, I'll probably go with whatever I have until I find a good two hander.

mazingerz, on 16 February 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

It probably wont be practical, but I love the carrying that spiked tree trunk of a weapon.

(whoops, monk forum.

Hehe, I forgot this shows up on the ticker on the front page

This is a Monk central discussion but people are more than welcome to discuss all the classes, it never hurts to learn possible synergies with other classes

[LiquidSnake69]

I've been on the fence about this since 2010, I want a bad ass staff wielding monk, but don't want to hinder my self on speed and spirit regen. I guess it will be a progression type thing where what ever is best I will use, expect on occasion where i want to look cool =)

[AFd3]

Rorance, on 16 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I agree completely, but to play devil's advocate, which I will always try to do in this thread no matter how much I agree, what if Guardian's Path adds 10% to your base dodge and doesn't effect the multiplicative nature of +dodge from other means? Such as the dodge you get from dex and +dodge stat.

So, to use your example, if you have 40% chance to dodge from your items Guardian's Path would bump you up to 50%. It would always give you a +10% chance to dodge no matter what, unless it would bring you over the assumed cap.

No worries I think I am very guilty at playing devil's advocate on here, it makes people think. No that's not how the math works. For stats like dodge and defense they have to prevent people from getting 100% dodge or else you would be invincible. So as your dodge amount gets higher any additional dodge you add will be reduced further. Just as a very simplified primitive example of this I will use made up numbers to highlight what I'm talking about.

If you have lets say 40% dodge already and you add +10% dodge from guardians path your total dodge would end up being something around 46% dodge (you don't ever get the full 10%). Now if you already have lets say +60% dodge and you try to add +10% dodge you total would be something like 64% dodge. You see it gets increasingly harder to increase these kinds of stats.

The formula is

Total culmination of dodge = 1- {(1-x)*(1-y)*(1-z)}


ex 46% = 1- { (1-0.4)*(1-0.1) }

• x, y, z are the dodge values you are summing up
  
• You can expand the pattern in the curly bracket to accommodate as many dodge bonuses as you would like

So at about 40% dodge any additional dodge-buffs will only provide you <50% of the dodge amount you thought you were going to add.

Edited by AFd3, 16 February 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Nodnarb]

AFd3, on 16 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Nodnarb, on 16 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Your weapon will be what ever u find that is better than what you have.  There is no point in really stating that you will use a sword and a shield...

Not exactly, the weapons you choose are a big part in decided how you play and what skills you should use. If you feel the skills are more important than you will compromise on the items to make them compliment the skills. If you feel itemization is most important then you will tune your skills to suit the best items you have.

Shields usually have more armor than your torso armor at the same levels. It's too much armor to pass up (it's that missing last bit of defense I need to feel safe) for me and the %chance to block combined with a high evasion chance is going to annoying for my enemies. You're assumption is very true for the earlier part of the games but as it starts to get challenging you weapons are going to have to match your play-style/build nicely.

Also dual-wielding is powerful but I don't see the same allure of gaurdian's path that everyone else does. I think duel wielding is powerful because you can use the effects of 2 weapons on your enemies (ex life-steal on one weapon and stun on the other) but that +10% dodge isn't always going to be so great. If you are already using evasion and have high dexterity that 10% will actually end up giving you a net increase of 5-7% (or less) chance to dodge which isn't all that great. I see a lot of people want to stack evasion, guardian's path and sixth sense but by using all three skills together you lessen their individual dodge effects a little. I don't see an increase from 40% to 45% dodge (as an example) as being attractive enough to use the guardian path passive even if I really like dual wielding. I would prefer to use another defensive passive to buff another aspect of my character's defense.

Very solid reply, +1

Its gonna boil down to what kinda stats can be on the items- they havent specified what "random stats" really means yet.  And also as the game increases in difficulity im sure u we will have to gear more towards defense.  (unless one of the "radom stats" can be chance to block)  b/c that would be a sick feature for an axe.  Deff would go duel weilding then

[Skorpionss]

being a total diablo noob(not that I haven't played diablo 2 or anything just not hardcore:P) I will go with dual wielding and lots of survival skills and passives
something like: http://us.battle.net...monk#ihgjkW!VUY

[AFd3]

Nodnarb, on 16 February 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

(unless one of the "radom stats" can be chance to block)  b/c that would be a sick feature for an axe.  Deff would go duel weilding then

lol.

Two axes with a lot of +strength and chance to bock would be just as good as a shield I guess. Does anyone know is %chance to block can show up on weapons because that wouldn't be right?

With that in mind as a monk, if you are dual wielding with 2 weapons that have a lot of +strength and +dex they might actually end up being a smarter choice then the shield defensively, those two stats would bump up your armor, damage and dodge chance.