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[PhrozenDragon]

1. The Cosmology of Diablo
2. The Cosmology of Diablo: Worlds
3. The Cosmology of Diablo: Angels and Demons
4. The Cosmology of Diablo: The Worldstone

It's been a while (a year in fact) but the Cosmology series will finally be finished. This time we will deal with the heavy subject of the Worldstone: where it comes from, what it does and what impact its destruction at the end of the Lord of Destruction (LoD) will have on the world of Sanctuary.

As a reminder there will be plenty of spoilers from the Sin War novels here, so if you've yet to read the books but still wish to do so, you should stop reading now.

Unlike the previous installments, citations will be placed at the bottom of the post for a more fluid reading experience.

What is it?
How does it hide Sanctuary?
How does it increase the power of the edyrem?
Was it stolen?
Conflicts with lore in LoD?
What will its destruction lead to?
References

What is it and what does it do?

The Worldstone was an immense crystal that sat at the heart of Mount Arreat. It stretched over a hundred feet tall and had a jagged, crimson structure.¹ The stone itself is made up of thousands upon thousands of small facets that flash with multi-colored lightning. Fragments of the Worldstone also float around the cavern, continuously colliding, breaking, and reforming.²

Originally it had one purpose only: to hide Sanctuary from outsiders, specifically Heaven and Hell, in order for the angelic and demonic deserters to remain safe. Four important changes were made to it over the course of it's life however:

• Inarius bound it to himself, preventing anyone but him to draw on its power. This secured his dominance of Sanctuary.³
  
• Inarius changed the resonance of the stone, which started to diminish the powers of the nephalem.⁴
  
• Lilith made an alteration to its resonance after her return to Sanctuary from the void, which allowed the nephalem to once again grow in power.⁵
  
• Uldyssian made a change to the core of the Worldstone which allowed the powers of the edyrem to grow faster than before.⁶

Important point: It is often argued, here and in other places, that Uldyssian tied the Worldstone to himself when he changed its structure. This does not appear to be the case. It is still possible that he did so, but there's no clear reference made to it anywhere.

Not all of these effects remained after the end of the Sin War however. Inarius' tie to the Worldstone is broken by Uldyssian⁷ and the spell that Lilith cast, is most likely dispelled or overridden with the core change that Uldyssian made. The same seems likely in regards to the dminishing efffect Inarius placed on it.

Two powers were not specifically stated to have been altered, however: the hiding power that allowed Sanctuary to remain undetected, and the change Uldyssian made that increased the growth of nephalem powers. These will be dealt with below.

How does it hide Sanctuary?
We all know the following as "fact": the worldstone protects Sanctuary from Heaven and Hell, and now that it is gone Hell is sure to invade! It's maintained in the games, and every Blizzcon at some panel there's a developer mentioning it. However, there are some serious problem with this theory, as I will show. First, we must look at how the Worldstone actually provides protection.

In essence, it works much like camouflage. Imagine that Sanctuary is a soldier hiding in a forest in full camouflage. If he is perfectly still he is nigh impossible to spot. Should he move, he becomes easier to spot, and the faster he moves the easier it becomes. However, unless someone is actually watching the spot where he is when he moves, he can remain undetected, even if he is running.

This is exactly how it is portrayed to work in the books. The Worldstone is consistently described as having been made in order to hide Sanctuary.^8,9 Both Inarius and Hell are furthermore concerned that if they move too fast, in essence use too much magic, they run the risk of exposing Sanctuary to Heaven¹⁰. This very neatly explains why Hell hasn't invaded Sanctuary in full force, and why Inarius simply hasn't stamped out Hell. Doing either would require so much power that Heaven would undoubtedly discover Sanctuary as a side-effect. For this reason, Diablo doesn't even show himself in full force, as that mere act might alert Heaven of Sanctuary.¹¹ Inarius has similarly contained his powers all these years so that Heaven would not find him.¹²

Thus the Triune was created to slowly turn mankind towards Hell, and the Cathedral of Light shortly thereafter to counter their efforts. This also helps explain why there are so many morlu in the first two books and relatively few demons. Summoning an army of demons would surely cause Sanctuary to be more visible to Heaven, as would Diablo in his full form, but an army of morlu are just dead humans. Raising them from the dead requires no direct interaction with Hell. It does require some magical energies to raise them from the dead, but this is probably on a magnitude far smaller than what is required to summon an army of demons.

What does this tell us? This tells us that the effect the Worldstone provides is the camouflage cover in the soldier analogy, and in itself, the cover is near perfect. However, heavy use of magical energies or the mere presence of angels and demons in the world makes Sanctuary "move," thus making it noticeable to those outside of it.

How does it increase the power of the edyrem?
As stated above, Uldyssian made a change to the Worldstone with the intent of increasing the power of the edyrem, or rather to make their powers grow faster. While it's never actually made clear how that works, it is clearly shown throughout the final book that the powers of the edyrem begin to take control of them, fueling their emotions and refusing to subdue once arisen.²² Uldyssian does remark near the end of the Veiled Prophet that their powers have grown too fast, and that they weren't ready for them yet.¹³

In the final chapter, when the "Reset" as I like to call it has been performed, where all the inhabitants of Sanctuary have their memories of recent events removed, all magical powers are also absent in the previously powerful Serenthia and Achilios. It seems impossible that Heaven and Hell would be responsible for this; if they can remove the powers of the edyrem so easily, what use are they as weapons?

Perhaps their powers didn't disappear. Since they've all lost their memories, it could be they still possess them, but simply no longer remember how to use them. Since the gift had to be awakened within the edyrem before they can use them, whatever powers they had would not transfer to the next generation of humans, and so the powers would be lost, and humanity would be free to develop at a slow pace again.

Was it stolen?
There is  an obscure sentence where Tyrael says that the Worldstone was stolen.¹⁴ He does not say from who, yet it seems unlikely he could mean anyone but Heaven.

In another passage, Trag'Oul says that the "essence of creation" was stolen, and that he was contained in it. As the world was shaped by the angels and demons, so too did he evolve.¹⁵

These two references are highly confusing. No other mentions are made in regards to whether Inarius and/or Lilith stole something in order to forge Sanctuary. But if the Worldstone, or whatever was used to shape it, was stolen, then than could mean that Heaven or Hell should be capable of figuring out how to change it, which could explain how the edyrem lost their powers after the Reset.

Conflicts with lore from LoD
So far this unfortunately makes little sense. In Lord of Destruction, the Worldstone is depicted as erecting some sort of barrier around Sanctuary. As long as it stood, it prevented angels and demons from entering en masse, but as soon as it was destroyed, there was nothing holding Hell back. This is not how its portrayed in the novels. Not once is the Worldstone made out to do anything but hide Sanctuary.

In fact, the idea that the Worldstone would provide a barrier is directly disproved in the novels. During the final chapters of The Veiled Prophet, Sanctuary is truly invaded by both Heaven and Hell as angels and demons pour out over the world.^16,17 There is nothing that stops them. In fact, the only thing that did hold Heaven back for a while was Trag'Oul.¹⁸ He in fact seems to have performed a function similar to what is usually ascribed to the Worldstone, for he managed to "shield Sanctuary from their sight" after Heaven had already learned of Sanctuary's existence, and only when his shield failed could the Heavenly Host invade Sanctuary proper.

What is even more interesting is that the Angiris Council and Mephisto form a pact between themselves. The pact is specifically made so that neither Heaven nor Hell shall interfere in the development of Sanctuary.¹⁹ This pact is not just a verbal contract, it also involves Mephisto leaving "his mark" on Sanctuary in order for the Angiris to accept it. Whatever that actually means is never made clear, but it's possible that it somehow forces Hell, or at least Mephisto, to abide by it.

There is also a pact made in regards to the Worldstone, but what that actually results in is never explained in the books.²⁰

What will its destruction lead to?
At this point it seems safe enough to assume that the Worldstone, in and of itself, was not what prevented Hell from invading prior to the events of Diablo III. But is there a way to make all of this fit together without retconning out the events of LoD entirely?

I believe there is, and the key lies in the last chapters of The Veiled Prophet. The entire finale is centered around this very pact that I mentioned above, the sole intention of which is to make sure that neither Heaven nor Hell will invade Sanctuary. There's also mention of a pact regarding the Worldstone, and the quote of Tyrael where he claims the Worldstone was stolen. These three parts allow us to piece something together.

When the Angiris and Mephisto convene they agree to form a pact regarding the Worldstone. Given that neither side is likely to trust the other, the pact would have to somehow force both sides into agreeing to it. If it lies within the powers of Heaven and Hell to erect some sort of barrier around Sanctuary, then that would seem a likely course of action for them to take.

Now the Worldstone is at face value just a big crystal, but it also permeates the entire world in some way.²¹ What better way to erect such a barrier than to do it through the Worldstone? The powerful artifact would maintain the barrier and make sure that neither Heaven nor Hell will be given the opportunity to invade Sanctuary. The final piece of the puzzle is the part about the Worldstone being stolen. The Worldstone has proven extremely hard to actually manipulate and change, but if it was taken from either Heaven or Hell, or combined using some magics from both, then it would seem reasonable that the task of altering it could be performed if both Heaven and Hell cooperated in doing so.

This allows us to fit it together with established LoD lore. Baal, when trying to corrupt it, would have been trying to alter whatever arrangement had been made there jointly with Heaven so that Hell would once again be granted full access. Tyrael destroyed it so that both forces would once again be able to invade should the need arise. This would mean that the reason Hell hasn't invaded has been because such a response would have garnered an immediate counter-response from Heaven, eventally leading to all humans perishing, something neither side wants. It's simply a stalemate. Such a stalemate doesn't seem likely to last for very long, becauase if it were then there would have been little reason for Mephisto to cement the earlier pact with his own blood. The stalemate is inherently unstable due to the nature of the war between Heaven and Hell, and that is why Hell begins to move during the events of Diablo III. The reason Hell hasn't invaded yet is thus that it was simply a matter of time.

Incidentally, this also ties in well with the banishment that the Three suffered from the Lesser Evils. The actual act of banishing them could not be seen as an attempt to invade, and depending on how the Worldstone pact was formulated it might have been that Heaven was prevented from doing anything about it. On the other hand, even if the magics used to banish the Three were indeed successful in circumventing the protection placed over Sanctuary, it would still have prevented a full invasion, thus leaving the Three alone on Sanctuary. Powerful yes, but not powerful enough to subdue an entire world on their own. What they could do however was to use their exile in order to get to the Worldstone. And the soulstones, shards of the Worldstone, could perhaps allow them to negate the barrier around Sanctuary.

One problem still remains. During Diablo II, it is specifically stated by Tyrael at the end of Act IV that Baal is searching for the Worldstone.²³ This indicates that the Three had no prior knowledge of the Worldstone's location, which fits nicely with what is established in the Sin War. The Three are never made out to actually know where the Worldstone is located. However, if the Three did in fact not know where the Worldstone was when they were banished to Sanctuary, then it doesn't seem likely any pact regarding the Worldstone could have involved any tampering with it. How could it have been if Mephisto wasn't present? I think we can assume Mephisto would not be happy with closing any sort of deal regarding the Worldstone without knowing where it is and what it's capable of.

All in all, it's still a bit unclear on how exactly the Worldstone was relevant during the events of LoD. We will probably have to wait until the very end of Diablo III to find out unfortunately.

References

1: Scales of the Serpent, p. 186

It resembled some of the crystalline formations that, as a boy, Uldyssian had found in the small caves at home, but none of those had stood well over a hundred feet high—perhaps even more than two hundred, since the base was too deep down to view—consisting of several monoliths jutting in a dozen different directions. Unlike the formations he recalled, this behemoth had a harshness to its look, with its jagged appearance and frightening crimson color.

2: Scales of the Serpent, p.  187

Each facet of the gargantuan formation contained thousands of minute ones. From within it emanated not only the illumination that had so burnt Uldyssian’s eyes, but, deeper yet, flashes of multicolored lightning. The overall light from the great crystal not only extended the entire length and breadth of the cavern—itself vast enough to fit the village of Seram and its surrounding lands within at least twenty times over—but looked as if it seeped through the very stone walls.

3: The Veiled Prophet, p. 178

Tyrael:

SOMEHOW HE WAS ABLE TO ALTER THE WORLDSTONE’S FOCUS — PERHAPS WITH THE UNKNOWING HELP OF HIS FELLOW RENEGADES — THEN BIND HIMSELF UTTERLY TO IT AND THUS ENSURED THAT NONE WHO HAD ASSISTED HIM IN ITS THEFT WOULD BE AS POWERFUL….

4: Scales of the Serpent, p.  191

Rathma:

Yet, the notion of the nephalem disgusted him and that is why he took the
Worldstone—which had been created in great part as a manner by which to hide Sanctuary from the eyes of the High Heavens and the Burning Hells—and altered its resonance.”

Uldyssian had been trying to follow Rathma’s tale as best as possible, but did not understand the last at all. “What does that mean? What would that do?”

“What it means is thus; in addition to secreting this realm, the Worldstone also began a steady and subtle dampening process. Each succeeding generation of nephalem became far less powerful than the previous, until, in very short order, those next born were bereft of any ability.

5: Scales of the Serpent, p.  192

Once again confused, Uldyssian turned back to the subject at hand. “What’s she done?”

“Clearly, my mother altered the resonance of the Worldstone again, so that now its effect is minimal and limited more or less to Mount Arreat, if that. Even in its presence, you were able to overcome it. With the Worldstone no longer a hindrance, the natural process enabling the nephalem powers could now flourish. You are the result of that…the first, anyway.”

6: Scales of the Serpent, p.  195

We need to be stronger, he told the Worldstone. We need our powers to grow faster…

The Worldstone did not outwardly change in any way, but Uldyssian felt something within start to shift in response to his probing. He repeated his desire, emphasizing the need for more power and quickly.

...

What had been perfect, was now flawed…impossibly so.

He withdrew immediately. “Lilith’s work—”

“No, son of Diomedes…your work.” Rathma’s gaze burrowed into him. “My mother altered the
resonance through a spell, which affected outcome but not structure. I expect you to do the same, or more likely, fail. It was a desperate chance, but one I felt worthy. You had been cast this near the Worldstone for a reason, I thought…”

“It was an accident that I came here.”

“Have you not discovered yet that there are no accidents?” the shrouded figure returned. “I did not know what to expect, but certainly not this. Uldyssian ul-Diomed, you have altered the very essence of the Worldstone, something that should not be possible…”

7: The Veiled Prophet, p. 306

Uldyssian made that adjustment….

And Inarius howled. He shimmered, and it seemed as if a part of him burned away. Physically, the angel appeared unchanged, yet as Uldyssian concentrated on him again, Inarius looked…much less. He was still what he was, a celestial warrior of tremendous might, but that might was nothing compared to what the Worldstone had enabled him to do.

Uldyssian had severed the renegade’s link. Inarius no longer could call upon the Worldstone.

8: Scales of the Serpent, p.  191

Rathma:

Yet, the notion of the nephalem disgusted him and that is why he took the
Worldstone—which had been created in great part as a manner by which to hide Sanctuary from the eyes of the High Heavens and the Burning Hells—and altered its resonance.”

9: The Veiled Prophet, p. 8

Then, using the gigantic crystal called the Worldstone — which had been created to keep Sanctuary hidden — he had altered the artifact so that it caused the innate powers of the children to decline until they became so dormant as never to have existed.

10: Scales of the Serpent, p.  282

“I had always thought that,” returned Lilith’s son. “because I knew that the Burning Hells would do all that they could to keep the secret and thus move at a slow, deliberate pace that I could counter. I knew that my father, too, would not rush matters, for he has no desire to reveal his paradise to his brethren nor face their stern justice for his crimes.”

11: The Veiled Prophet, p. 149

They did not know how fortunate they were, for the demon who visited Inarius could have done much worse. It was only that he, like the angel, dared not fully reveal himself.

There were those even the Lord of Terror feared.

12: Scales of the Serpent, p.  52

He had no fear of being noted. The mortals were naturally blind to his presence and his power shielded him from any others who might have been otherwise able to detect the celestial being. Inarius no longer even had to worry about the High Heavens sensing either him or Sanctuary, for he felt at last that his powers were vast enough to keep even the Angiris Council oblivious, especially with the everlasting war to further distract their attention.

13: The Veiled Prophet, p. 323

But the trouble, in Uldyssian’s case, in the case of all his followers, was that it had come too soon. Humanity — and he, in particular — had been thrust too fast into their destiny. That had been Lilith’s doing, the demoness too impatient to let the centuries lead men in the same direction. Uldyssian had not been given the opportunity to mature properly into his gifts.

14: The Veiled Prophet, p. 178

Tyrael:

SOMEHOW HE WAS ABLE TO ALTER THE WORLDSTONE’S FOCUS — PERHAPS WITH THE UNKNOWING HELP OF HIS FELLOW RENEGADES — THEN BIND HIMSELF UTTERLY TO IT AND THUS ENSURED THAT NONE WHO HAD ASSISTED HIM IN ITS THEFT WOULD BE AS POWERFUL….

15: The Veiled Prophet, p. 69

His name was Trag’Oul, and he had existed since this world had been molded by the refugee angels and demons. The essence of creation that they had stolen to forge Sanctuary had included what was him. He had grown as the world had grown, and his fate was tied to Sanctuary as much as was that of the humans now populating it.

16: The Veiled Prophet, p. 303

There seemed no end to their ranks. They flew through the unnatural tear by the hundreds, in the process making the gap widen so as to let those behind them enter in even greater numbers. Already, they filled a good portion of the heavens, and the clouds seemed to react to their presence by churning worse.

17: The Veiled Prophet, p. 307

However, something happened next that surely Tyrael did not desire. From the ruined ground erupted huge, steaming craters. They blossomed without warning, sending the edyrem scattering. Uldyssian knew what they were, and his hopes for his home did not improve in the least, especially when the first scaled fiend leapt out to meet the angels.

The Burning Hells had come to have their say in the fate of Sanctuary.

18: The Veiled Prophet, p. 240-242

The strain…was too…much…I could not maintain the…the ploy at the same time…we may have saved you…only to condemn you…with the rest of us…Rathma…

“What do you mean?” he asked, sounding every bit as concerned as Mendeln felt. “What ploy? What happened?”

Sanctuary is no…no longer shielded from their…sight! The Heavenly Host knows they were misled. Trag’Oul’s grief at his failure was so very evident. The winged warriors are closing in on our world.

...

Tyrael could sense the others fast approaching, and the only question he had was why it had taken them so long.

19: The Veiled Prophet, p. 332

With a chuckle, Mephisto added, “But Sanctuary is much more than we envisioned! All you said is true, and we would let it grow and see where it leads, good or ill, untouched by either side.”

AND WE SHOULD TRUST THE WORD OF YOU, mocked Imperius.

“This world cost me my children, both who sought its survival. I would also have it grow for their sakes.”

20: The Veiled Prophet, p. 334

His voice seeping with satisfaction, Mephisto murmured, “And the cavern and the find within?”

Imperius shifted as if angry. Tyrael replied, FOR WHAT SHALL BE NEEDED TO BE DONE THERE,
ANOTHER PACT MUST BE MADE.

21: The Veiled Prophet, p. 305

Distance had no meaning where the Worldstone was concerned. Though it physically appeared to be hundreds of miles away, it was, in truth, everywhere, and so Uldyssian had no difficulty reaching out to it with his mind.

22: The Veiled Prophet, p. 250

The merchant’s daughter shook uncontrollably, then started sobbing. The fire vanished from around her hands. As it did, Uldyssian retracted his own spell.

Or, at least, he tried to. The green flames resisted. The heat around both of them continued to increase. Sweat began pouring down Uldyssian’s face, and he heard Serenthia gasping for breath.

Gritting his teeth, the son of Diomedes focused harder. He demanded that his power obey.

And it did. Just like that, the flames ceased. Yet the effort took more out of Uldyssian than he had expected.

Serenthia shifted in his arms, bringing his attention back to her. She looked up, her face drawn from her outburst.

“I’m…I’m sorry, Uldyssian…. I didn’t mean to lose control of myself…but…”

“It’s all right. I understand.”

She wiped the moisture from around her eyes. “It’s just that…I suddenly feared that I might not see him again this time.”

23: Tyrael, Act IV, Diablo II

Edited by PhrozenDragon, 30 May 2011 - 03:09 PM.
Added quotes to all references

[DesmondTiny]

interesting read
Do one on Trag'Oul next that would be interesting.

Edited by DesmondTiny, 28 May 2011 - 09:22 PM.

[Periculum]

Very informing, thank you for this

[Crit]

Good read. I  don't really understand the part about Mephisto's pact though. He clearly interfered with Sanctuary in D2 with no consequences? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Noomba]

I never finished the sin war trilogy, stopped somewhere in the second book. I might go back and finish it now. This has stirred my interest again, thanks!

[Daemaro]

Great read. I agree one on Trag'Oul would be good. Not many people even know who or what he is. I think that's too small of a topic though. One about Necromancers/Trag'Oul/Guardians would be cool, they all tie in very close.

[grave_dancer]

Not that i want to spoil but the books are not written from the actual game lore. Sadly they are not "official" lore of the Diablo saga . Correct me if i am wrong

[Don_guillotine]

grave_dancer, on 29 May 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:

Not that i want to spoil but the books are not written from the actual game lore. Sadly they are not "official" lore of the Diablo saga . Correct me if i am wrong

The books are official. The Sin War was actually commissioned by Blizzard, who gave the lore framework for the books. They wanted a trilogy deepening Sanctuary's background.

While the other books besides Sin War (Demonsbane, Kingdom of Shadow, Black Road, Moon of the Spider, Legacy of Blood) are also official, their lore however might be slightly inconsistent. In other words, because the framework for them wasn't as strictly given by Blizzard, some inconsistence with actual in-game lore is possible.

Edited by Don_guillotine, 29 May 2011 - 11:24 AM.

[PhrozenDragon]

CritterCutter, on 28 May 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

Good read. I  don't really understand the part about Mephisto's pact though. He clearly interfered with Sanctuary in D2 with no consequences? Maybe I'm missing something.

That goes hand in hard with the soulstone argument I make near the end of the post. Since the Worldstone has to prevent Heaven and Hell from invading to stay consistent with the Worldstone lore from D2, and since the Three also had to appear on Sanctuary during those events for the current lore to stay true, there has to be some cosmic mechanic that allows the Three passage to Sanctuary. This is fulfilled by the Soulstones. Due to them being from the Worldstone itself, they could very well allow the Three to act on Sanctuary relatively unrestrained.

Daemaro, on 29 May 2011 - 03:11 AM, said:

Great read. I agree one on Trag'Oul would be good. Not many people even know who or what he is. I think that's too small of a topic though. One about Necromancers/Trag'Oul/Guardians would be cool, they all tie in very close.

Perhaps, though I'm not sure there's enough material currently available to make it anything substantial. We'll see.

[Crit]

PhrozenDragon, on 29 May 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

CritterCutter, on 28 May 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

Good read. I  don't really understand the part about Mephisto's pact though. He clearly interfered with Sanctuary in D2 with no consequences? Maybe I'm missing something.

That goes hand in hard with the soulstone argument I make near the end of the post. Since the Worldstone has to prevent Heaven and Hell from invading to stay consistent with the Worldstone lore from D2, and since the Three also had to appear on Sanctuary during those events for the current lore to stay true, there has to be some cosmic mechanic that allows the Three passage to Sanctuary. This is fulfilled by the Soulstones. Due to them being from the Worldstone itself, they could very well allow the Three to act on Sanctuary relatively unrestrained.

Hand in hard. Thanks for further explaining, it makes sense to me now.

[italofoca]

Epic work. Epic topic. Cosmology of Diablo is so cool. Congratz!


To bad this is the Cosmology "chapter" that makes me so angry lol. As years passed by i started to really dislike the Sin War trilogy and it's contributions to the canonical lore of Diablo.

I'm not a fan of the nephalem part of the story. Humans with hidden godlike powers just reminds me to much of super heroes. I'm not confortable in fantasy universes were magic and arm skills origin from "hidden" and "birth" powers. I kno basically all Diablo lore don't work like that (magi study and soldiers train) but the Sin War trilogy totally changed those rules (for a momment). Nephalem and specially the Uldyssian party looked like super heroes with their all mighty super powers. Imo this is a really silly.

Also i just think this multiple changes in the Worldstone function is silly. A "artifact" of such magnificent power shouldn't be messed up so easilly. I mean... It looks like the Worldstone can do anything... It does not have a fixed, predefined function. It do anything that the author want it to do. At least it was destroyed.

Finnaly, the over explanation of the Heaven-Hell conflict and every little super natural event in the world ruins the "mystery" of it. I really love fantasy genre because it makes me wonder about things that does not exist. If they explain everything to me, even the sex of the angels, i just loose interest.

This is also why the WD is by far the best thing that happened to Diablo lore. He brings new gods and new planes of existance, but we don't any idea what they are(gladly!). He controls and serves unknown forces. The WD is shrouldred in mystery. We don't even know if thier gods exist or not. This is so cool.

[PhrozenDragon]

italofoca, on 29 May 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Nephalem and specially the Uldyssian party looked like super heroes with their all mighty super powers. Imo this is a really silly.

It's not so different from many other works of fantasy in principle. It even goes back to to the myth of Hercules and beyond.

However I do think the execution is what bothers you with it. Uldyssian simply reaches god-hood too fast with little emotional impact or development. He stays the exact same character throughout the three books and gets some more powers as time goes on.

But the potential of humanityt has been here all along, even from the time of D1 so it's not exactly a new concept intoduced into the lore.

italofoca, on 29 May 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

It does not have a fixed, predefined function. It do anything that the author want it to do. At least it was destroyed.

The problem I'm highlighting is one of continuity and causality.

Point A: Worldstone does not protect Sanctuary
Point B: ???
Point C: Everyone acts as if the Worldstone protects Sanctuary.

This is a problem that can only be solves by introducing some event(s) at point B which causes C to happen. Otherwise there's no relation between the cause and the effect, and understanding the world becomes completely impossible.

The other solution is for the authors to just retcon whatever they want, and while I entertained that thought it doesn't seem as if that's the case due to the continuous referring during Blizzcon panels about the importance of the Worldstone.

italofoca, on 29 May 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Finnaly, the over explanation of the Heaven-Hell conflict and every little super natural event in the world ruins the "mystery" of it.

"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology." -Larry Niven

Some of us like that though

[Raptorbonz42]

Cool tidbits! It's things like this that get me hyped about the story that awaits us all.

[italofoca]

PhrozenDragon, on 29 May 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

italofoca, on 29 May 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Nephalem and specially the Uldyssian party looked like super heroes with their all mighty super powers. Imo this is a really silly.

It's not so different from many other works of fantasy in principle. It even goes back to to the myth of Hercules and beyond.

However I do think the execution is what bothers you with it. Uldyssian simply reaches god-hood too fast with little emotional impact or development. He stays the exact same character throughout the three books and gets some more powers as time goes on.

But the potential of humanityt has been here all along, even from the time of D1 so it's not exactly a new concept intoduced into the lore.

I personally separate Fantasy and Mythology in two different "cathegories", even though some intersections appears now and then. Mythology usually debates the life and death of gods, demigods and godlike beigns. The narrative of a myth is most of the time distant from a humam reality. Hercules is a myth. Superheroes are the modern myths. I usually don't like myths, they are romantically dehumanized.
Fantasy usually is a world of people, like you and me, under a few different rules. Usually there are gods, but the gods don't intervene that often. It may also have magic, but, as you said, magic seens like a derivation of tecnology, not a birth power.
For exemple, Lord of the Rings is a fantasy story. The characters don't have godlike powers compered to any other. They are like humans from other cultures and with some different physical traits. I mean the fellowship of the ring does not exist outside the other humans, elves, hobbits and dwarves. They don't make part of a different cathegory of beings.
Now the Simarillion is a mythology story. It tells the creation of a whole world and conflict between gods and godlike creatures. The characters, most of the time, are beyond any human standard (Faenor fight 50 balrogs wtf).

Diablo, at first, was a fantasy world. Even the godlike beings (diablo and tyreal) acted humanly due their strength handcaps (diablo was defeated by a common, sword and board and chain mail humam). The Sin War trilogy adds a myth "air" to the series. I'm not a fan of drastical and sudden direction changes.

And i agree the potential was there even in D1, but it was unexplored. In D1 times all this Sin War story was foggy. People couldn't tell what was real or not. It really had the tune of a myth inside the fantasy world. The "revelation" of the Sin War as actually historical facts made the myth real.

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The problem I'm highlighting is one of continuity and causality.

Point A: Worldstone does not protect Sanctuary
Point B: ???
Point C: Everyone acts as if the Worldstone protects Sanctuary.

This is a problem that can only be solves by introducing some event(s) at point B which causes C to happen. Otherwise there's no relation between the cause and the effect, and understanding the world becomes completely impossible.

The other solution is for the authors to just retcon whatever they want, and while I entertained that thought it doesn't seem as if that's the case due to the continuous referring during Blizzcon panels about the importance of the Worldstone.

My problen is not only that. Even if they find something really great to fill the Point B's "???", the fact that the Worldstone changed it's function so many times and in so many unrelated ways made it a bit silly. If the worldstoine were just the stone to cloak sanctuary away from heavens and hell i would be glad. But make it into a artifact to shrienk down/up nephalem birht skills? I can't see the connection =/

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"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology." -Larry Niven

Some of us like that though

It's not magic i'm talking about! It's the spiritual/divine side of the story. The cosmology thing that separates fantasies from myths.
Imo overexplained magic is 100% ok. It's actually good and really feels like a replacement to tecnology. What i usually don't like is the overexplanation of godly beings and the concretisation of divinity.
Imo spirituality, even in a fantasy world, should be a mystery, in a way that the player/reader don't know what religion is right and what religion is wrong. For exemple, since the Sin War, we know anyone that follow a heavenly religion is being "tricked".
I prefer universes were nothing is set in stone. Each culture have it's own explanation and theres no way one can tell whats right and wrong. For exemple, Mage the Ascesion. The very concept of magic widely varies depending on what kind of mage you're. It's not like a matter of "my magic is different cause i'm a necromancer, i control death". It's a matter of "magic is X. The necro thinks he controls death, but he doesn't because death don't exist. Hes controlling or being used by a force he does not know". This kind of stuff.

Just my silly taste lol

Edited by italofoca, 29 May 2011 - 04:29 PM.

[Magistrate]

In regards to your last paragraph about Mephisto not knowing the location of the Worldstone: It could have been that they charged the humans of the time with hiding it, and then through centuries of myth and legend, it was forgotten, leaving the Barbarians only with the memory of a charge. *shrug* Humans have always been the neutral party that either side has wanted to sway (or not sway). Since they were not involved with the pact, they could hide it so neither side would know where it was.

This is so thorough I can't find anything I disagree with or to add to. Very well researched and cited. Thanks for yet another cosmology!

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PhrozenDragon, on 29 May 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

italofoca, on 29 May 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Nephalem and specially the Uldyssian party looked like super heroes with their all mighty super powers. Imo this is a really silly.

It's not so different from many other works of fantasy in principle. It even goes back to to the myth of Hercules and beyond.

However I do think the execution is what bothers you with it. Uldyssian simply reaches god-hood too fast with little emotional impact or development. He stays the exact same character throughout the three books and gets some more powers as time goes on.

But the potential of humanityt has been here all along, even from the time of D1 so it's not exactly a new concept intoduced into the lore.

I personally separate Fantasy and Mythology in two different "cathegories", even though some intersections appears now and then. Mythology usually debates the life and death of gods, demigods and godlike beigns. The narrative of a myth is most of the time distant from a humam reality. Hercules is a myth. Superheroes are the modern myths. I usually don't like myths, they are romantically dehumanized.
Fantasy usually is a world of people, like you and me, under a few different rules. Usually there are gods, but the gods don't intervene that often. It may also have magic, but, as you said, magic seens like a derivation of tecnology, not a birth power.
For exemple, Lord of the Rings is a fantasy story. The characters don't have godlike powers compered to any other. They are like humans from other cultures and with some different physical traits. I mean the fellowship of the ring does not exist outside the other humans, elves, hobbits and dwarves. They don't make part of a different cathegory of beings.
Now the Simarillion is a mythology story. It tells the creation of a whole world and conflict between gods and godlike creatures. The characters, most of the time, are beyond any human standard (Faenor fight 50 balrogs wtf).

Diablo, at first, was a fantasy world. Even the godlike beings (diablo and tyreal) acted humanly due their strength handcaps (diablo was defeated by a common, sword and board and chain mail humam). The Sin War trilogy adds a myth "air" to the series. I'm not a fan of drastical and sudden direction changes.

Well said! I think the mechanic of the Sin War was not to change the presentation of the series, though. I believe it's primary purpose was to bolster the fantasy with myth. Most mythology is very boring, outlandish, or somewhere inbetween if you're reading it for entertainment purposes (although entertainment is open to interpretation).

Edited by Magistrate, 29 May 2011 - 05:32 PM.

[Jackzor]

CritterCutter, on 28 May 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

Good read. I  don't really understand the part about Mephisto's pact though. He clearly interfered with Sanctuary in D2 with no consequences? Maybe I'm missing something.

I think its basically that the Dark Exile allowed the Three to interfere, basically through a loophole, because they were put on Sanctuary against their will (even though they actually planned it.) Also, the 'consequences' could have been something along the lines of Tyreal also being able to assist the humans. Or their weakened state could have been a result of going against their pact.

[PhrozenDragon]

Magistrate, on 29 May 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

In regards to your last paragraph about Mephisto not knowing the location of the Worldstone: It could have been that they charged the humans of the time with hiding it, and then through centuries of myth and legend, it was forgotten, leaving the Barbarians only with the memory of a charge. *shrug* Humans have always been the neutral party that either side has wanted to sway (or not sway). Since they were not involved with the pact, they could hide it so neither side would know where it was.

Well that would have worked wonderfully except:

A: How exactly do you move a 100 ft tall stone enrenched inside of a mountain?
B: And even if the humans, without powers, could have done that... they didn't. The stone has always been inside of Mount Arreat

I don't know about you, but I'd think Mephisto would assume the stone would still be inside Mount Arreat if he knew it was there to begin with. And he's not likely to suffer from amnesia either, so lo luck there.

[Doomscream]

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I thank you, mortal, for my freedom. But I did expect you earlier. I am the Archangel Tyrael. I came here to prevent Diablo from freeing his brother, Baal. But I have failed. Now, Terror and Destruction roam free throughout your world. Even now, they head towards the Eastern capital of Kurast - to the very heart of the Zakarum Temple. There they hope to find their eldest brother, Mephisto, the Lord of Hatred who was imprisoned there ages ago. If the three Prime Evils unite, they will be invincible.
Though it is unclear as to what their aims are, it is certain that they must be stopped at all costs. I am broken and the energies that tie me to this world are diminishing rapidly. You must take up this quest and prevent the Three Brothers from reuniting. You must cross the sea and search for Diablo and Baal in Kurast.
Now hurry, mortal... Time is running out for all of us

I always thought that Tyrael was referring to the Worldstone when saying that he can't sustain himself on Sanctuary for much longer, after Baal was released and made a short spar with him.

Edited by Doomscream, 29 May 2011 - 08:37 PM.

[ScyberDragon]

Phrozen, you probably no more about Diablo's lore than anyone else. Blizzard staff included.

[PhrozenDragon]

Doomscream, on 29 May 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

I am broken and the energies that tie me to this world are diminishing rapidly.

It's entirely possible. Assuming D2 lore still stands, Tyrael should not be able to stay in Sanctuary for long regardless of what method of explanation you use.

It's not entirely impossible that the Worldstone, or whatever provides the actual protection, is not capable of fully blocking out beings as powerful as Tyrael. But even so, it could be that the shield actively wears him down, or that his weakened state after fighting Baal and Diablo makes him more susceptible to it. The soulstones would of course protect the Three from this.

ScyberDragon, on 29 May 2011 - 08:41 PM, said:

Phrozen, you probably no more about Diablo's lore than anyone else. Blizzard staff included.

Thank you, but let us hope not! I'm counting on someone at BlizzHQ having a much more consistent explanation for these troublesome discrepancies