Devs Experimenting with APoC, "Diablo III Caramelldansen," by Jaetch, Curse Weekly Roundup

Devs Experimenting with APoC

Some tweaking has been done on the PTR/Beta that developers haven't yet mentioned. Arcane Power on Crit has been receiving changes and the devs still aren't quite sure where the sweetspot is. Check out what Wyatt Cheng had to say about it on Reddit.

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Source)

We are indeed experimenting with a reduction of AP-on-Crit.

  1. At the moment the default AP regen is 10/s. A standard AP-On-Crit loadout increases this easily to 22 or more and it was definitely heading into the territory of spamming expensive spenders non-stop right out of the gate. Reaching that point should be a state you aspire to and work towards (usually with some legendary items or a sweet set bonus) - not something that's handed out virtually for free.
  2. It completely negates the use of Signature spells, and we do strive for a rhythm of alternating between your left and right mouse buttons, as well as all 6 skills on your bar. It's okay if the most dedicated players reach a point where they no longer need a signature spell, but this should not be the case for people who just put on 2 easily-acquired items and a particular skill loadout.
  3. Yes - we are pushing for people to do more than spam one skill. Running out of resource should be a very real concern - that's the point of having a resource system at all. You decide when to spend your resource. Sometimes you save it up, sometimes you spend it liberally. If you never run out of resource, what is the difference between a cheap spell on an expensive spell? In theory, a high resource cost spell should do more damage but you can't use it as much. A low resource cost spell you can use more often but does less damage. What we were seeing on both the Witch Doctor and the Wizard is that people simply spam their most expensive spell possible and hope the monsters are dead before you run out of resource.

The Barbarian had reduction to resource regeneration from passives as well. We'll continue to monitor the Witch Doctor, the Wizard and the Barbarian. We're concerned both with making sure all 6 classes have good power levels relative to one another, and we're also concerned that all 6 classes have a variety of fun playstyles available to them.

Quick follow-up for clarity. We intentionally did not modify any legacy items. We have a core value on the team to take great lengths not to modify items on the live game that people own. The reduction of AP-on-Crit applies to items dropped in Loot 2.0 only.

I'm worried that legacy AP-on-crit Sources/Hats might still be preferable to Loot 2.0 items.
For Sources you generally have 4 stats you care about:

  • Damage: ~250 on live L60 and ~350 on beta L70
  • Crit Chance: 10% on both live L60 and beta L70
  • AP on Crit: 10 on live L60 vs 4 on beta L70
  • Intelligence: 250 on live L60 vs 600+ (?) on beta L70

For Hats you generally have 4 stats you care about:

  • Crit Chance: 6% on both live L60 and beta L70
  • AP on Crit: 10 on live L60 vs 4 on beta L70
  • Intelligence: 250 on live L60 vs 600+ (?) on beta L70
  • Socket: 1 on both live L60 and beta L70

So the choice comes down to:
Legacy

  • 20 AP on crit

vs
Loot 2.0

  • 8 AP on crit
  • 100 damage
  • 600-1300 more Intelligence
  • Skill % bonus on Hat
  • Potential for new Legendary effects

I admit that a lot of the new Legendary effects are tantalizing, but gaining 2.5x more AP on crit and the ability to use your most damaging skills non-stop is hard to pass up. I'd honestly prefer a lifesteal-like reduction at level 70 just so I don't feel compelled to use legacy items (although I'm sure this isn't going to be too popular an opinion with some people).

It's okay if the most dedicated players reach a point where they no longer need a signature spell, but this should not be the case for people who just put on 2 easily-acquired items and a particular skill loadout.

In that case, have you considered making the rarer legendaries roll higher AP-on-crit values, approaching the legacy values? Or adding AP-on-crit to non-Source/Hat legendaries? Is there a Wizard set (torment-only?) that has AP-on-crit as its powerful set bonus?
EDIT: Also thanks a lot for addressing this thread directly!

Yes, you bring up a great point.

We discussed this internally and to be honest, we're "worried" that legacy AP-on-crit sources/hats might still be preferable. I put "worried" in quotes because we ran some analysis and looked at the new legendaries are we're fairly confident people will find Loot 2.0 items to be better but we've been wrong before and I'm willing to be wrong again.

As you mention - the new Legendary effects is one of the things we're banking on. We're hoping they are tantalizing enough to pull people forward.

We considered a lot of things. We considered a Lifesteal-like reduction going into 70. We considered nerfing the live items directly (but as previously mentioned, we're very loathe to do that). We considered significantly increasing AP costs on the most egregious spells. We considered removing AP-on-crit completely from orbs but significantly adding +flat damage so the likelihood people "graduated" out of them was extremely high (but this would cause a significant ripple effect of balance across all items in the game and all classes). We considered massive nerfs to proc scalars on the Wizard but that seemed unfairly across-the-board punishing just to fix the AP problem.

It's really hard to say for sure how things will play out, but it's an issue we'll be monitoring closely.

Regarding AP-on-crit for rarer legendaries. I think part of this nerf definitely leaves room for Wizard-set bonuses in the future. Maybe it will be AP-on-crit as a set bonus - though more likely we'll use some of the space we've freed up to do something more interesting like getting a freecast of Arcane Orb when you meet certain criteria or letting one of the cheaper spells become a generator in a manner similar to the Demon Hunter's Kridershot.

Wyatt - Should have bit the bullet a year ago in RoS development when you toyed with stat caps and converted to a Ratings System a-la WoW. APonCrit isn't quite %-age based, but could have been done. Just raise the rating required for 10 AP @ 70 higher. Problems across all legacy itemization obsoletetion solved! (No need to block legacy rerolling either)
ie - 10 AP on Crit converted exactly to 100 AP-on-Crit Rating.
@ 60 need 10 rating per 1 AP on Crit.
@ 70 need 25 rating per 1 AP on Crit.

So your legacy item with 100 AP-on-Crit-Rating still returns 10 @ level 60.... but only 4 @ 70. Item stays the same, new ilvl 70 items also have the same 100 rating cap, but with shiny new legendary affixes.
Was there a reason the Dev team did not want to convert to that type of system? It worked for Blizzard across many many expansions, and I know D3 folks really hate hearing about WoW... but c'mon.. Thunderfury? XD

We're trying to avoid ratings for the forseeable future on Diablo III. Believe me - it's tempting. Ratings have the advantage that you can continually scale up the stats by making them worth less per point when you move to higher levels. We could have done crit rating, crit damage rating, move speed rating, ApocRating, etc.

The downside of ratings is that it becomes extremely difficult to gauge your gear. Gear is already hard enough to evaluate - but we always have it in the back of our minds to try and make things better over time, not worse. Going with ratings is basically saying "No human being could hope to evaluate this gear, just go to d3up" (not that I have anything against d3up, but I think the game should be playable by savvy players without needing it). This is why the new properties we've added are things like cooldown reduction, resource cost reduction, and area damage. We're trying to provide stats that people can evaluate without needing a spreadsheet.

Internally we had people suggest things like "super-crit" or "crit-from-strength" as new stats to introduce in RoS. I'll let you imagine what these do. The problem is - these stats added complexity without making choices more interesting -and worse - they further made evaluating gear into a giant math problem.

TL;DR: Ratings let us scale gear but make gear harder to evaluate at a glance. The design team has decided to accept a lot of pain in order to keep the gear legible to humans.


"Diablo III Caramelldansen," by Jaetch

The Caramelldansen video by Jaetch we highlighted a few days ago reached the official forums and landed directly on the Diablo III front page! Check out the official post:

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

In this edition of Artisan Showcase, get ready for a Sanctuary-themed blast from the past with "Diablo III Caramelldansen," by Community MVP (and all-around good guy) Jaetch.

Featuring all six Diablo III hero classes, everyone's favorite Angiris Council members, plus a few appearances by Leah, Deckard Cain, the Prime Evil, and a trove of treasure goblins, this tribute to one of the most adorable memes ever is sure to brighten your day. So sit back, relax, take a break from your usual farming routes, and check out the video below.

Not familiar with Caramelldansen? Click here!

Looking for more videos from Jaetch? Be sure to subscribe to his YouTube page and/or follow him on Twitter!

Malthael%20Left_thumb.pngMalthael%20Middle_thumb.png Malthael%20Right_thumb.png

Are you working on any Blizzard fan creations? Make sure to tell us all about them over in our Community Creations forum!


Curse Weekly Roundup

The Curse Weekly Roundup is upon us, bringing a lot of interesting news from the gaming world! Check out the video for information on Titanfall Beta, Evolve, Goat Simulator, Flappy Birds, Candy Swipe and more!

Comments

  • #1 Zek
    The APoC nerf was inevitable, I'm surprised it took this long. They already nerfed all the other abusive methods of getting perma-resources and/or eliminating cooldowns.
  • #2 Ryude
    Diablo III is just one nerf after another. God forbid someone has fun in this game.
  • #3 Depthsofhell
    people do. maybe you don't ryude
  • #4 wildminz
    "we do strive for a rhythm of alternating between your left and right mouse buttons". Looks like I will play a signature spell only build, so much about left and right mouse buttons.
  • #5 Ryude
    Quote from Depthsofhell

    people do. maybe you don't ryude

    I have fun, but then they nerf it. I found another build that is fun, hopefully they don't nerf that too.
  • #6 knightofthorns
    They don't nerf "fun" things, they nerf "broken" things which takes choices away. What is "fun" for you can create problems for the whole community.
  • #7 Ryude
    Quote from knightofthorns

    They don't nerf "fun" things, they nerf "broken" things which takes choices away. What is "fun" for you can create problems for the whole community.

    How?
  • #8 yourgrandma
    a blunt but effective suggestion: why not just halve the APoC on legacy items with a patch, max APoC will be 5 in RoS and be done with it.

    that's 10 APoC max. with regular source + hat, that will pretty much force you to do a signature spell now and then, although blizzard should be examined with utmost care as it accounts for a lot of resource refill atm (with 10 APoC my conventional blizz + sleet storm build is unstoppable on T4 on PTR, and fairly easy on T5), and as a complementary solution more APoC or resource regen should be achievable through legendaries and set items.
  • #9 akse
    Quote from Ryude

    Diablo III is just one nerf after another. God forbid someone has fun in this game.

    Sure if you only see the nerfs and not the big picture
  • #10 knightofthorns
    Quote from Ryude
    Quote from knightofthorns

    They don't nerf "fun" things, they nerf "broken" things which takes choices away. What is "fun" for you can create problems for the whole community.

    How?

    Let's take the current barbarian for example. They have very high dps, and great mobility. thanks to sprint and berserk. So when they start a game, they gain enough fury for battle cry and berserk, then they just sprint away, damaging/killing monsters, and all you have is left-overs. Is this fun for the barbarian? Probably. But is it fun for the others?

    Giving choices is good; however, when one of the choices is too good, then it is not a choice anymore. That is how things go in the current human society.
  • #11 Ryude
    The problem with Diablo 3 is that Blizzard thinks people want the game to be balanced. Balance is good for a competitive game, not a game where you're basically just farming the same content over and over for paragon levels and loot.

    Instead of making every build weak, make every build strong in different ways. There are plenty of ways they could do that, but what's frightening is that it has been 2 years and they still haven't figured out how.
  • #12 wildminz
    The best thing about high resource generation is that you can be creative and make mediocre spells viable. Nerfing the hell out of resource generation will make only a handful of builds viable in torment, balance leaves no room for experimentation and I will have to use a cookie cutter build. Everybody on this planet needs to understand that nerfing the best skills or builds never makes crappy builds viable. Nerfing stuff never increases build diversity, ever. If you have three cars but only one which works then nerfing your best car will not make your other cars work.
    Last edited by wildminz: 2/17/2014 5:23:26 AM
  • #13 knightofthorns
    If you have three cars and one is more efficient and pretty, then you will use that one. So no diversity.

    If infinite resource makes mediocre skills usable, it makes powerful skills insanely good (see Hammer of the Ancients or Nirvana build on live). "Mediocre" skills can be made viable by tuning other things. Infinite resources problems, not solve them.
  • #14 lMarcusl
    I think people are just misrepresenting the reality here. Let us take three of my characters on live as an example.

    1) DW Frenzy barb - infinite Fury, infinite heal from LS, immune to CC, permanently in Berserker mode. I was doing Infernal Machine with my buddy on MP5. My buddy died. I soloed the rest of the event without breaking a sweat. The only time I used a generator was when I wanted my Maniac stacks to stay on.

    2) D2 style elementalist Wizard - stacking Conflagration and Cold Blood bonuses, then nuking with meteors. Thanks to AP on crit, when I encounter large mobs I don't have to touch a resource generator, ever.

    3) Fetish WD. I can spam Plague Bats forever under Big Bad Voodoo. Without Big Bad Voodoo, I have to be very cautious about using my mana since I dont have mana on crit, nor high crit chance. I prefer to rely on AS to summon a lot of Fetishes to help me survive through the stages when I have no Mana to nuke stuff or my CC is on cooldown.

    Why would I ever want to go farm items with WD 3) when my 1) Barbarian can go 3 Monster Power higher and not even have to pay attention to what is happening on the screen. Even a less extreme example, why should I farm Infernal Machine with 2) Wizard, when he can reliably get infinite AP only when hitting large crowds. My barbarian can get infinite resource regardless of mob size. Whenever I feel like playing online with a friend, I have no incentive to play anything but my barbarian because the rest are just not nearly as overpowered as the rest. There are only two options on how to solve this: nerf the outliers to make them on par with the rest, or buff everything else to be overpowered. If everything is overpowered, where is the challenge and enjoyment of playing the game?
  • #15 IgnatiusReilly

    Running out of resource should be a very real concern - that's the point of having a resource system at all. You decide when to spend your resource.


    All that needs to be said. Thank you, Wyatt.
  • #16 chelatek
    Too bad AP generators are all extremely boring and underpowered. Resource management takes the "action" out of "action RPG" and turns it into "3 seconds of fun blowing up a group of enemies and 10 seconds of trying not to die while spamming an attack that barely damages a single enemy"
    Last edited by chelatek: 2/18/2014 3:48:15 PM
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