PvP in Diablo 3
Since the first announcement of the PvP interview segment with Jay, and from Sixen's Press Event article. Unfortunately the Beta will be lacking the PvP portion of the game all together. Seeing as this information won't be materialized in game for us until release, following the PvP development is the closest we can get to playing it.
Changes/Additions
In the PvP model at Blizzcon, when you died you were out until the round ended, only able to view the battle from a ghost form which is incapable of interacting with the battle. This caused some gameplay issues seeing as it would always end up being a "last man standing" situation, which Blizzard didn't feel suited their casual approach to PvP. As of now the PvP system supports a team death match style of spawning, where when you die you have X seconds until you respawn into battle. This system bases the winning team off total kills between all players on the team. As team death matches tend to go, the round ends when either team hits the kill cap, or the time limit runs out. Through internal testing they found that players generally enjoyed the PvP experience more seeing as they felt like death didn't remove them from the game. Blizzard also found that this gave players a chance to figure out counters to the opposing team's strategy, which often made for epic come backs.
Official Blizzard Quote:
-Still same arena environment, still kind of feels the same, but when you die, you stay out for a few seconds and then you come back. It bases more on time limit and kill count, which we actually found was a lot more approachable and a lot more fun.
This power purchasing situation is unavoidable, players will find a way to buy items no matter what. The concept of a separate Arena for non-currency traded items only has been brought up among PvP enthusiasts. Problem is this would segregate the PvP community, which is something Blizzard stands firmly against.
Due to the integrated match-making system even if someone spent the money on a leveled character, and all the greatest gear, they would be matched with players with similar character capability. So chances are buying all perfect end game gear for PvP will just pit you against very high caliber players, not some noobs you can smash.
Moving along to PvP player caps, the Blizzcon PvP model only supported 2v2, and 3v3; limiting the player cap to 6. The reasoning behind this low number is not due to technical limitations, but rather clean gameplay, and low visual pollution; same as the 4 player cap in PvE. Many players bring up how Diablo 2 had an 8 player cap. Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2, both player and monster skills are more visually flashy in D3. Through internal testing they've found the sweet spot for PvP player caps sits between 6 and 8 (3v3 or 4v4). The current 3v3 PvP limitation isn't finalized, as Blizzard is currently testing 4v4 matches in the Arena.
Official Blizzard Quote:
We’re actually playing around with the max being 4 per team, which is 8 players total, but that’s still 4 per party. By the way, that’s not confirmed, we’re just playing around with it. Ideally, we’d love for parties in PvP to be 4 players.
Official Blizzard Quote:
You're gonna die, cause it's hardcore mode. So if you don't want to die don't go into the Arena.
Official Blizzard Quote:
The PvP strike team that focuses on that area, they are pretty nervous about it. Their basic feeling is that if that is what happens, then hardcore characters just won’t PvP. But then there was hardcore dueling in D2 so we may change that. We may allow hardcore PvP players to play without dying. That being said, I still want a way for hardcore players to duel even if not at ship. I am going to push for a way. Even if its basically just a place where you can go in the world where you are flagged for PvP. Even if it is that simple, there is a community, even if it’s a small community that I want to support. Those fuckers are crazy. Part of me is like aww you crazy bastards.
Non-competitive PvP Environment Blizzard has long made games based on close competition. Ranging from the calculated multitasking of StarCraft, to the skill casting hot key tracking ways of World of Warcraft. In both franchises the games have been balanced around PvP; Diablo 3 will be different. Blizzard has chosen to persistently steer clear of heated competition while developing Diablo 3. Determine to base the game around PvE, it seems PvP comes secondary when making development decisions.
Skills in PvP will not be reworked from the ground up, but will instead be tweaked via under-the-hood changes. Things such as stun, freeze, or snare effects will be tuned down for PvP separate from PvE. A main reason for Blizzard not completely overhauling each skill for PvP separately is that it would cause your character to play very differently in PvP than in PvE, thus causing a disconnection of the gametypes. Even further detailing this concept, Force asked Jay Wilson about this during their interview over at Blizzard headquarters.
Official Blizzard Quote:
What we have is within the data of the skill, we have these things called snows that are little containments of data. You can open up the magic missile snow and see everything that magic missile does. We have this other column that is for PvP and it can take any of the attributes for the regular skill and change it. We primarily use it to change how long a stun lasts or… We don’t have any diminishing returns and we are hoping not to. Cooldowns and damage could change but we try not to mess with those because they are really tricky. Crowd control durations; those are the big things that tend to change that are game breaking.
Official Blizzard Quote:
-when people say “BARB IS TOTALLY OP!!!” we’re going to be like “yeah… he probably is.”
Official Blizzard Quote:
You can’t give the people an e-sport set up and then say it’s not an e-sport. If you are going to commit to that, then you have to commit to it. It’s not an e-sport, we are not going to do that high of level of feature set. It’s also one of those things where, from the outside it looks like we have endless time and budget but the truth is we don’t. The truth is we work our butts off to get the game out and we make choices and adding features like that to make it an e-sport when it’s not a goal for us, when we could be spending those dollars making the PvP game better or the PvE game better, we are going to spend the money there.
Instead of a stat based ranking system, players will have a PvP "level" that will be viewable right on your character banner. These levels are progressed through by simply playing the PvP game mode. Winning will progress you faster through the levels, but it is possible to reach the same levels no matter how much you lose. Jay touches on this during an interview with Force. There will also be no win/loss ratio stats being tracked. Your PvP level will represent how much time you've played in the Arena, not at all being based on any sort of ratios.
Rewards, and Wishlist Features.
While understanding Blizzard's firm stance on a casual PvP mode one might ask, what features will PvP be lacking?
One idea currently endangered is the spectator mode. In StarCraft2 this feature is necessary considering the e-sport aspect of the game. In Diablo 3 the feature still has a niche, and surely would be entertaining but due to the time constraints the development team is under, unnecessary features are put on the back burner.
Official Blizzard Quote:
It is actually on a list, but it’s pretty low down on the list because there are a lot of things that would be cooler to do and without it being an e-sport… replay is kind of an e-sport feature.
Official Blizzard Quote:
-We know we are going to have some balance issues, and it’s a lot easier to control if we’re not balancing for different kinds of modes, so right now we’re just focused on the one.
Official Blizzard Quote:
We have definitely talked about some other modes. Not at ship but who knows about the future. I really like the idea of a mode that involves monsters and players of some kind. We have played around with modes like that but the biggest issue was that they didn’t feel like Diablo. I think that was just the design we had but there is a way to do it that feels like Diablo.
As for rewards is seems there will be many achievements to complete in PvP, which could provide some type of reward. There are also titles, which will likely be similar to the Diablo 2 title system.
Official Blizzard Quote:
Right now there is a whole array of PvP oriented achievements and titles and part of the banner, the crest of the banner, is dedicated just for PvP. So as you get to higher and higher ranks, it levels that up.
- PvP Crest (Top of the banner): Where your PvP, "Level" will be showcased on your banner.
- Achievement Tally Marker: Your completed achievements will be showcased on either side of your banner.
- Highest Completed Difficulty Status: Highest difficulty completion is shown.
- Hardcore Identifier: Do you not fear death?
- Party Member Listing: Each player in your party is represented by their unique banner flag.
- Quick Join Listing: Located under the banner, you'll be able to join other players also looking for matches.
- "Social" Button: Presumably all of your friends will be listed, even while playing other Blizzard games.
- Profile (Helm): Where you view your in-game possessions and character details.
- Achievements (Shield): View you achievement progress.
- Auction House (Gavel): Links directly to the AH.
- Drop Listing: (Bottom left) This drop listing hasn't been detailed, though from its location it could have something to do with the chat box.
- Chat Box : Can't have Diablo without one!
- General Menu Listing:
All in all Blizzard has taken a different approach to PvP in Diablo 3. Instead of being the end game jewel it was for Diablo 2, it is now simply another way to test your character with friends. Through extensive PvE development, we can only hope there is a lasting PvE endgame being stowed away beyond our knowledge, since PvP isn't looking to be developed to fill in endgame content. Although PvP is not the main focus of the development team, it is sure to acquire a fan base all its own.
Be sure to check out Sixen's Give Me Options or Give Me DEATH! article where you can vote on your preferred type of auction house, and listen to DiabloCast Episode 20.
Get pumped for the Beta by reading Magistrate's More Beta Buildup article.
Don't forget to update your Beta profile! More details in ScyberDragon's Important Beta Profile Update article.
And for PS3: http://www.webhallen...9461-diablo_iii
And for 360: http://www.webhallen...9460-diablo_iii
I don't think you can reference a site selling things that may never exist to prove anything.
What? There will be inferno mode, which I expect to be hard and therefore fun, and you have pvp. You have. P.v.p. PvP is in the game. There will never not be an option to not be able to play pvp (maybe a lvl restriction if you're too low?). You most certainly can call it pvp. its one team of players vs another (and a player vs a player if they have a 1v1 bracket). That is the VERY DEFINITION of pvp.
Yes, being able to play pvp or pve is very restrictvie. I wish i could do pvf, or pvd (player vs faerie and player vs developer). Oh, or whack-a-mole. Is there a D3 bejewelled? I definitely want in on that. DIABLOVILLE!?!?!?!? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Okay.
They have 2 systems currently, the one where the rune drops and you can see its type, and the socket-to-identify one that is getting some kind of an uproar. I hope they eventually settle on the latter with the ability to re-roll the rune. They haven't decided which to go with yet.
Okay.
Dunno. :-p
11 years is limited time? And don't forget were talking about blizzard. The aspect of limited money for the development doesn't seem correct.
Seems to me someone high up has a thing for Diablo 3 being strictly PvE... Pitiful.
How is fighting equally rated (i.e. skilled and geared) players NOT competitive?
It's certainly more competitive than joining random duel games. It is approximately as competitive as private leagues, only with a much bigger player selection. And if you are very skilled, it may be more competitive due to that increased player base so that you will be able to fight against more people like yourself.
Does the game not saying "You're #1000 out of 1,000,000 players, THAT MEANS THIS GAME IS COMPETITIVE!" change anything? Does it affect the quality of the matches? Are you getting matches against different people because your rating is public? No.
Now, it might make it initially harder to set up leagues with skill parity if the MMR is non-viewable, but over time, that will work itself out.
Hell, there might be achievements or titles unlockable once you break a certain rating, we don't know. If you're interested in competition to show off, the current pvp system may be lacking.
If you're interested in competition to have challenging matches, then current system is perfectly fine.
Okay, I haven't read the rest of this discussion. But this post makes you look like a narrow minded fan-boy. Just sayin'.
Time windows? They had 11 (eleven) years(at least 8 of which could/should have been spent developing Diablo 3). Budget, sure, but they've had more than enough time...
I think you are missing the fact that they aren't balancing the classes for pvp. That in it's own is what makes the current pvp system no more than a light hobby. If you take pvp seriously with obvious balance issues, you will be forced onto the most OP class, and probably fight nothing but the same OP class.
Have you ever played a player versus player game before?
I think you're missing the fact that it is a Sisyphean task to balance all the possible combinations of builds for a single class, let alone the possible permutation of class compositions. How do you expect one build to be superior to all 2 trillion or however many builds there will be. You don't think there will be at least 1 build from each class that will be able to hard-counter, and many that will be able to soft-counter whatever your Holy-PvP-Superiority-Batman build happens to be.
D2 wasn't balanced for pvp and "everybody" "loved" it.
Have YOU ever played a pvp game? Which ones are PERFECTLY balanced? How many of those are also considered RPGs?
I've played RTS, FPS, MMO, and MOBA games, and at least dabbled in pvp for all of them.
If you actually think this, you must not be aware of how a matchmaking system works.
Basically, the more you win, the higher your rating, the higher the rating you have, the higher the rating of the people you are matched against.
So lets say you get matched against some bad pvpers at the start, because everyone starts off with a given rating. You gain a bunch of points stomping on these bad players so now your rating is significantly higher than there's. You then get matched up with people of approximately the same rating, which means they've won about as many games, which means they are approximately equal to your skill and/or gear.
The system doesn't really care how you won, only that you won, and what the difference in rating is between the two of you (MMR will be more accurate sooner with smaller teamsizes, but with larger teams will eventually be accurate for that as well). The if you have a vast lead on someone in rating, you'll get a small rating boost when you win, and they'll lose a small amount. On the other hand, if you have a large rating lead and lose, the points lost by you and gained by the other person are increased proportionately to the rating difference.
This in effect makes players of equal skill play each other. Will noobs get stomped on at first? sure. But then their rating will be lower and they'll only get matched with other noobs. At the same time, really skilled players will rocket up the ratings until they reach a rating level where they fight similarly skilled players, at which point their rating stablizes and they fight equally (well) skilled players.
At no point will a super high rated individual be matched against a noob (with the exception of possibly teaming up with someone who is not rated and fighting another team who's average rating is the same as the non-rated and high-rated player's average rating).
Another possible exception would be massive queue times, which would loosen whatever the threshold in the system is for "close enough to match together." I.E someone with a 3000 rating will likely never fight someone with a 1500 rating, but they may fight someone with a 2800, 2600, 2400, etc. rating if they've been queued up for 5, 10, 15, and so on minutes.
I don't know that this is a huge problem, but it definitely changes the game mechanics away from the counterstrike "it pays to be sneaky/cautious as hell" towards a quake-style run and gun fragfest.
I would be pretty surprised if they didn't offer a 1v1 queue.
When isn't identifying the weakest link on a team the winning strategy? I mean, after a while either the weakest links will learn to dodge, or they will be matched with similarly rated teams with one or more weak links as well.
Additionally, there will be a time where the weakest link is dead and there are no "weak links" to target, so what happens then? does the winning team just stop and wait for the respawn, or do they try to press their advantage? Maybe those still standing are so much better than their teammate that its better to run and wait for the respawn, but if the skill/gear disparity is so high, I don't see how those 2 couldn't have taken 1 or more of the other team down in exchange for their weak link.
I don't think the pvp matchmaking system is going to take win/loss into account, actually. I think it's based more on some gear calculation as well as story progression and obviously level. Jay Wilson talked a little bit about how there is no rating system like there is in WoW with different tiers based on success in the arena.
Also, as for balance, I've been playing fighting games for quite a few years and have gotten pretty serious about them. I can tell you perfect balance is the last thing a competitive game needs. Each class needs to have strengths and weaknesses, and needs to have the ability to counter other characters. If one character is viewed strongest in the game, people will develop strategies to deal with that power.
And if you think Blizzard is dumb enough to allow spawn killing, I don't think you're giving the development team enough credit.
I think the story progression "rating" is for quick join pve games. I don't see how story progression has any relevancy to pvp.
From the article with the JW group interview transcript:
So while you and I won't be able to SEE our ratings, I'm pretty certain based on that answer that the ratings exist.