PvP in Diablo 3
Since the first announcement of the PvP interview segment with Jay, and from Sixen's Press Event article. Unfortunately the Beta will be lacking the PvP portion of the game all together. Seeing as this information won't be materialized in game for us until release, following the PvP development is the closest we can get to playing it.
Changes/Additions
In the PvP model at Blizzcon, when you died you were out until the round ended, only able to view the battle from a ghost form which is incapable of interacting with the battle. This caused some gameplay issues seeing as it would always end up being a "last man standing" situation, which Blizzard didn't feel suited their casual approach to PvP. As of now the PvP system supports a team death match style of spawning, where when you die you have X seconds until you respawn into battle. This system bases the winning team off total kills between all players on the team. As team death matches tend to go, the round ends when either team hits the kill cap, or the time limit runs out. Through internal testing they found that players generally enjoyed the PvP experience more seeing as they felt like death didn't remove them from the game. Blizzard also found that this gave players a chance to figure out counters to the opposing team's strategy, which often made for epic come backs.
Official Blizzard Quote:
-Still same arena environment, still kind of feels the same, but when you die, you stay out for a few seconds and then you come back. It bases more on time limit and kill count, which we actually found was a lot more approachable and a lot more fun.
This power purchasing situation is unavoidable, players will find a way to buy items no matter what. The concept of a separate Arena for non-currency traded items only has been brought up among PvP enthusiasts. Problem is this would segregate the PvP community, which is something Blizzard stands firmly against.
Due to the integrated match-making system even if someone spent the money on a leveled character, and all the greatest gear, they would be matched with players with similar character capability. So chances are buying all perfect end game gear for PvP will just pit you against very high caliber players, not some noobs you can smash.
Moving along to PvP player caps, the Blizzcon PvP model only supported 2v2, and 3v3; limiting the player cap to 6. The reasoning behind this low number is not due to technical limitations, but rather clean gameplay, and low visual pollution; same as the 4 player cap in PvE. Many players bring up how Diablo 2 had an 8 player cap. Diablo 3 isn't Diablo 2, both player and monster skills are more visually flashy in D3. Through internal testing they've found the sweet spot for PvP player caps sits between 6 and 8 (3v3 or 4v4). The current 3v3 PvP limitation isn't finalized, as Blizzard is currently testing 4v4 matches in the Arena.
Official Blizzard Quote:
We’re actually playing around with the max being 4 per team, which is 8 players total, but that’s still 4 per party. By the way, that’s not confirmed, we’re just playing around with it. Ideally, we’d love for parties in PvP to be 4 players.
Official Blizzard Quote:
You're gonna die, cause it's hardcore mode. So if you don't want to die don't go into the Arena.
Official Blizzard Quote:
The PvP strike team that focuses on that area, they are pretty nervous about it. Their basic feeling is that if that is what happens, then hardcore characters just won’t PvP. But then there was hardcore dueling in D2 so we may change that. We may allow hardcore PvP players to play without dying. That being said, I still want a way for hardcore players to duel even if not at ship. I am going to push for a way. Even if its basically just a place where you can go in the world where you are flagged for PvP. Even if it is that simple, there is a community, even if it’s a small community that I want to support. Those fuckers are crazy. Part of me is like aww you crazy bastards.
Non-competitive PvP Environment Blizzard has long made games based on close competition. Ranging from the calculated multitasking of StarCraft, to the skill casting hot key tracking ways of World of Warcraft. In both franchises the games have been balanced around PvP; Diablo 3 will be different. Blizzard has chosen to persistently steer clear of heated competition while developing Diablo 3. Determine to base the game around PvE, it seems PvP comes secondary when making development decisions.
Skills in PvP will not be reworked from the ground up, but will instead be tweaked via under-the-hood changes. Things such as stun, freeze, or snare effects will be tuned down for PvP separate from PvE. A main reason for Blizzard not completely overhauling each skill for PvP separately is that it would cause your character to play very differently in PvP than in PvE, thus causing a disconnection of the gametypes. Even further detailing this concept, Force asked Jay Wilson about this during their interview over at Blizzard headquarters.
Official Blizzard Quote:
What we have is within the data of the skill, we have these things called snows that are little containments of data. You can open up the magic missile snow and see everything that magic missile does. We have this other column that is for PvP and it can take any of the attributes for the regular skill and change it. We primarily use it to change how long a stun lasts or… We don’t have any diminishing returns and we are hoping not to. Cooldowns and damage could change but we try not to mess with those because they are really tricky. Crowd control durations; those are the big things that tend to change that are game breaking.
Official Blizzard Quote:
-when people say “BARB IS TOTALLY OP!!!” we’re going to be like “yeah… he probably is.”
Official Blizzard Quote:
You can’t give the people an e-sport set up and then say it’s not an e-sport. If you are going to commit to that, then you have to commit to it. It’s not an e-sport, we are not going to do that high of level of feature set. It’s also one of those things where, from the outside it looks like we have endless time and budget but the truth is we don’t. The truth is we work our butts off to get the game out and we make choices and adding features like that to make it an e-sport when it’s not a goal for us, when we could be spending those dollars making the PvP game better or the PvE game better, we are going to spend the money there.
Instead of a stat based ranking system, players will have a PvP "level" that will be viewable right on your character banner. These levels are progressed through by simply playing the PvP game mode. Winning will progress you faster through the levels, but it is possible to reach the same levels no matter how much you lose. Jay touches on this during an interview with Force. There will also be no win/loss ratio stats being tracked. Your PvP level will represent how much time you've played in the Arena, not at all being based on any sort of ratios.
Rewards, and Wishlist Features.
While understanding Blizzard's firm stance on a casual PvP mode one might ask, what features will PvP be lacking?
One idea currently endangered is the spectator mode. In StarCraft2 this feature is necessary considering the e-sport aspect of the game. In Diablo 3 the feature still has a niche, and surely would be entertaining but due to the time constraints the development team is under, unnecessary features are put on the back burner.
Official Blizzard Quote:
It is actually on a list, but it’s pretty low down on the list because there are a lot of things that would be cooler to do and without it being an e-sport… replay is kind of an e-sport feature.
Official Blizzard Quote:
-We know we are going to have some balance issues, and it’s a lot easier to control if we’re not balancing for different kinds of modes, so right now we’re just focused on the one.
Official Blizzard Quote:
We have definitely talked about some other modes. Not at ship but who knows about the future. I really like the idea of a mode that involves monsters and players of some kind. We have played around with modes like that but the biggest issue was that they didn’t feel like Diablo. I think that was just the design we had but there is a way to do it that feels like Diablo.
As for rewards is seems there will be many achievements to complete in PvP, which could provide some type of reward. There are also titles, which will likely be similar to the Diablo 2 title system.
Official Blizzard Quote:
Right now there is a whole array of PvP oriented achievements and titles and part of the banner, the crest of the banner, is dedicated just for PvP. So as you get to higher and higher ranks, it levels that up.
- PvP Crest (Top of the banner): Where your PvP, "Level" will be showcased on your banner.
- Achievement Tally Marker: Your completed achievements will be showcased on either side of your banner.
- Highest Completed Difficulty Status: Highest difficulty completion is shown.
- Hardcore Identifier: Do you not fear death?
- Party Member Listing: Each player in your party is represented by their unique banner flag.
- Quick Join Listing: Located under the banner, you'll be able to join other players also looking for matches.
- "Social" Button: Presumably all of your friends will be listed, even while playing other Blizzard games.
- Profile (Helm): Where you view your in-game possessions and character details.
- Achievements (Shield): View you achievement progress.
- Auction House (Gavel): Links directly to the AH.
- Drop Listing: (Bottom left) This drop listing hasn't been detailed, though from its location it could have something to do with the chat box.
- Chat Box : Can't have Diablo without one!
- General Menu Listing:
All in all Blizzard has taken a different approach to PvP in Diablo 3. Instead of being the end game jewel it was for Diablo 2, it is now simply another way to test your character with friends. Through extensive PvE development, we can only hope there is a lasting PvE endgame being stowed away beyond our knowledge, since PvP isn't looking to be developed to fill in endgame content. Although PvP is not the main focus of the development team, it is sure to acquire a fan base all its own.
Be sure to check out Sixen's Give Me Options or Give Me DEATH! article where you can vote on your preferred type of auction house, and listen to DiabloCast Episode 20.
Get pumped for the Beta by reading Magistrate's More Beta Buildup article.
Don't forget to update your Beta profile! More details in ScyberDragon's Important Beta Profile Update article.
The two types drive two very different train of thoughts, one gives incentives to do whatever you can to not die, including resource and cooldown management. While gives incentives to do a more damage based gameplay based on barreling down your opponents HP.
Granted we do not know how the game will play out and we don't know all the abilities and skills yet, it's safe to assume that proper cooldown and resource management would be the skill that sets better players apart. That's the whole point of the matchmaking and ladder system.
There is a large difference between blowing all your cooldowns and playing a more Do more damage than they deal to me before I die type Deathmatch, than an Avoid damage all together and use proper cooldowns to get the kill cleanly while the other team is trying to do the same.
Last Man Standing rewards a more meticulous thought out gameplan and cooldown/resource usage, while Deathmatch does not. In the end the better players will come ahead regardless, but I wouldn't be at all suprised if blowing all your cooldowns and button mashing sometimes comes ahead of mechanics.
The correct PvP Enviroment should be that which ALWAYS favors mechanics, which deathmatch may not. But my bigger question is WHY change from Last Man Standing to Deathmatch? What made DM their choice?
This is patently false.
If you can't understand that TDM will require skill (though PERHAPS a different skillset than LMS), then you use a poor definition of the word 'skill,' or do not understand what it means.
TDM still involves skill, be it a different type of skill due to the nature of TDM, but who says that extremely similar or the same strategies cannot apply to TDM as LMS? Let's think about the roll of skill cooldowns in pvp. With LMS, every skill would be available at the beginning of each round. In TDM, people will have to portion out their skills in order to deal with the stronger/weaker characters or combination of characters currently alive on the opposing team, and how those skills support the characters alive on your own team while LMS might actually support blowing all your cooldowns at once in order to get the kill more so than TDM. TDM forces the player to decide whether it is worth blowing cooldowns in order to get one or two kills and having to play defensive or using skills with lesser cooldowns until the stronger skills are available.
OFC, I'm no stranger to competition and I understand the desire for LMS. There are strategies involved that affect the rest of the match in a much more devastating way than they would in TDM. You can bait out skills with long cooldowns and punish your opponent harshly, which is extremely fulfilling. TDM does not give the player the same sense of fulfillment from outsmarting your opponent in the short term, but there is still strategy involved, and a lot of it.
The biggest question plaguing people right now... Is TDM more casual than LMS? In terms of accessibility, yes. It's a game mode accessible to every player. Does TDM allow for serious competition? Yes, in a much different style than LMS would, but supports a different style of play and different strategy. Is TDM less strategic than LMS? No, it's not less strategic; it involves a different way of thinking.
Am I supportive of TDM over LMS? No, not at all. I want LMS. But I think it'd be extremely beneficial for both modes to be implemented.
Except then you get stunned or blocked by a zombie wall and your 2 min cd is just ticking away uselessly. Now you have 2 minutes without CDs to deal with.
Using CDs to maximal effect > using more cooldowns so that they come up sooner.
Even if you get stunned or CC'd, you don't have to worry since the match wasn't going to last 2 minutes either way.
I think you're overestimating the spawn timer.
The only part that is troubling me is people are talking about blowing all their cool-downs... how many are you planning on having? The theory this game has presented is you can't have many abilities and if you choose all big ones you’re going to be useless for awhile unless you have a good gear/ability set up to maintain your resources. I may be drastically wrong here but I think people are looking into the mechanics of PvP a little too much considering only a select few have even seen how the game plays.
My two cents, thanks
Well, right, we're kind of ignorant of a lot of ability capability.
The CD comments are based on the "higher teir skills will have longer CDs" post that was made by a blizz someone somewhere. It may not even apply in the new, skill-pointless, ability design.
But generally speaking, if there are 1-2 skills for each skill "tree" (are those even around anymore?) with lets say a 2 minute CD and since we have access to all abilities, it may be advantageous to have all or many of those abilities in pvp. Certainly in LMS where once someone is dead they're dead, and one would presume long CDs are powerful (edit: since matches are much shorter). In TDM, there is at least the fact that you need to deal with time without those abilities available.
Lets say you pop all your CDs and then you die. You just wasted them all (assuming buffs wipe when you die). Now you used your 4/6 abilities, to no effect, and now you have 2 abilities left, likely 1 of which is a movement ability, leaving only 1 skill to do anything with. Concentrated use of cooldowns likely does guarantee ONE kill. How snowbally D3 pvp is we have no idea, but if its not hard-core snowbally, you now have to deal with 2 minutes of reduced power. By the time the CDs come up, you could be low on health or miles away from where the action is happening, and if you just use them then, you're wasting them. You did say as often as possible, if you're not using them for some reason, then you're following my train of thought on superior opportunity>more opportunities.
Sure, you get one kill, maybe even 2, but without knowing how snowbally the pvp is, we can't say for certain if that will be enough to counteract your downtime.
I enjoy you stating opinion as fact. I have played plenty of WoW, and I basically just play LoL atm. I played SC within (against) my circle of friends for years and years. I've played a variety of FPS. Any true scotsman would know that you questioning my credentials is silly.
Proove it. What evidence do you have that that is the case? Risk, poker, axis and allies, settlers of catan, uno, chess, pick any game you want. They all have the ability to be played competitively. Some require different skillsets, that doesn't make the game less competitive.
In fact we're probably just going to talk past one another, but define "competitive" for me.
They didn't change from LMS to TDM because it was "too comptetitive" they changed it because "being dead isn't as fun as playing."
They changed the mode to increase fun, not to decrease competitiveness. Increasing fun does not autmatically lead to a less competitive structure.
There are so many confounding factors here. Did they think it rocked hard just because they got to play d3? Was it because they were all equally unskilled (since no one has really played it) so all the matches were close and exciting? Was it just the atmosphere that was enhancing their enjoyment of the process? HAVE THEY GIVEN TDM A TRY? If blizzard says that TDM turned out to be more fun (i.e. rock harder) why shouldn't we believe them.
This is basically what I'm saying. People are clamoring how "LMS is THE ONLY WAY TO BE COMPETITIVE, TDM HAS NO COMPETITIVENESS" (possible hyperbole) but in reality neither is more or less competitive than the other.
I'm not saying LMS is LESS competitive than TDM. I'm also definitely saying that LMS is NOT more competitive than LMS.
For some reason some people are lock-jawed on to only being able to judge skill in LMS, when skill is more flexible and complicated than that and can be measured in a variety of ways (such as through different game types).
We have limited information and even less first-hand experience. I'm sorry I couldn't give you an action-by-action-thought-by-thought breakdown of a theoretical series of events that neither of us knows much about.
I'll give you a better example as soon as we have more complete and up-to-date ability information.
Alternatively:
Running away can be fun. Did you never play tag?
Kiting can certainly be balanced.
Its pace depends entirely on ability information we don't have, respawn timers we don't know, and terrain we have no knowledge of.
Would the opposing team just sitting there and flailing their arms sound more competitive? Kiting is essentially a tactical retreat, are you saying that retreating while you're at a temporary disadvantage is non-competitive? Is zerging someone in LMS competitive? Why is that competitive when kiting isn't?
Replace "player" with "team" and "5 minutes" for "1 hour of gametime" and you have pro football.
Having or displaying a strong desire to be more successful than others.
If you can win or lose, then there are varying degrees of success. And if you want to win, then it fits that definition for competitive.
See, it is both what I said, and far more than that.
On a high level, not getting down to the nitty gritty of the game, you want to score more points than the opposing team in the time alotted. This is the point of the game.
On a lower level, some teams go about this by having a high-powered offensive game (which can be further broken down to run/pass/combo) or a high-powered defensive game (making each yard gained by the opponent backbreaking, or turning over the football).
This is analogous to a "zerg" mentality (concentrated focus fire to "outscore" the other team) or something like a kiting game (wear the other team down and get points off the other team's errors).
These are all competitive. I'll let you decide which ones are fun or not, but they surely aren't serious, right? Oh wait... there are hot dog eating contests, paper football competitions, arm wrestling tournaments, and the guinness book of world records. Oh and I forgot about the other variable called fun.
When it comes down to it, TDM is still going to be fun whether or not it's taken seriously. We're going to be able to kill the crap out of each other. To me, that's fun.
People are saying Diablo 2 didnt have good PVP but it was better than WOW.
Diablo 2 PVP was a hidden gem. You had to be really into the game and know a lot about the mechanics to make a actual good PVP character and there was even clans. It just was as someone had stated earlier that the PVP communities were more underground.
You had to know where to look but the PVP in Diablo 2 was intense. I loved how you could just go anywhere and fight but a arena is a good idea.
I dont mind the aspect of a arena but the PVP needs to be as good as Diablo 2 or its gonna suck.
The only bad thing really about PVP in Diablo 2 was the absorb... being able to absorb elemental damage made sorc suck, especially piled on with the fact everyone could teleport.
Anyways the game is going to suck in the end if PVP is no good. I have faith in Blizzard but I just dont want them to go straight PVE because that is a horrible idea.
Such certainty.
I'm particularly lacking on inclination towards an explanation right now, but to your points I say this: don't be so sure.
Think all you need to say is patches for the win.