The question is, will this kind of limit be necessary to ensure stable animations and effects, as claimed by Bashiok on behalf of the Blizzard game developers, or are they simply trying to ease their workload by purposefully limiting the creativity of players? The discussion, as it continues, can be seen [B]here [/B]for your viewing pleasure.
In the past, when the game was not as far along as it is now, very nebulous and vague replies were given for any inquiries about the function of character limitations in wearing certain kinds of gear. That was, however, some time ago, and it would seem that things are coming along now more quickly and definitively than in the past, as Bashiok goes to reply to fans about the status of character-specific gear:
Quote from[I][...][/I']we do now have some restrictions on weapon types usable by each class. It's been part of the game for a while now.
In Diablo II, many can remember that apart from gear specifically tagged with a character-specific label, players could equip their characters with any gear in the game that dropped. The Sorceress could wield a maul and the Necromancer could wield a two-handed hammer to seize of a barrel. While this did not in most cases work very effectively, as many other item types were tailor-made by developers with specific modifiers to account for specific character types and builds, it allowed a reasonable amount of creativity and past-time playability for players looking for something "outside the norm". This, however, apparently required more development time for additional logical animations to account for the use of certain skills when bearing a certain type of item for a certain class.
Bashiok went on to discuss the importance of the decision to regard characters wearing any type of item as a vital part of the game as something that could be dropped for other, possibly more exciting and important, parts of the game mechanics, specifically pertaining to weapons:
Quote fromAllowing every class to use every weapon type was actually going to require a huge amount of time and effort and it would have meant cutting out or cutting into other features. We evaluated really how often people would want to have their class holding a weapon type that (traditionally) contradicted their class-style versus that work going in to other features - specifically having a lot more skills and a lot more skill-rune effects. We made the obvious choice which is making sure there are a ton of awesome skills and rune effects to choose from.
However, quickly after this thought he went on to say, with a liberal amount of obvious typed-dictation, that allowed weapon types for characters will not dictate what stats will be on them at all times, although only logical modifiers will be on the equipment:
Quote fromBecause I can see the conclusions being jumped to RIGHT NOW in my old cranium - let me state that weapon types do not dictate stats. At least not wholly (barbarians can't use staves so there's no point in allowing fury related stats on them). We understand that the game is about variation, customization, and experimentation in class builds. We're not World of Warcraft, we're not looking to make weapon stats "optimal" for the types and classes that will use them. Which is to say, we're not going to put specific stats in specific amounts on each weapon of a specific type because we're making assumptions about what each class wants out of their stats. We want variation, and experimentation, and all that good stuff. These restrictions don't affect those goals, it really just means you probably won't see a wizard lugging around a two-handed axe. Kind of a bummer, but then think about what it affords us to work on with more and better looking skills, a more robust rune-skill system, etc.
This will, though, as he said, not affect the customization of builds with the individual character, pertaining mostly, perhaps, to skill modifiers. He goes on to promise that they are working hard to ensure that custom "off" builds will still be both fun and effective, something that was found lacking for many in Diablo II.
Quote from[I][...][/I']we want to have a large variation of stats on all weapons to allow for experimentation and "off-build" customization.
When questioned about consideration of limiting armor choice for characters, Bashiok replied with a no, for the most part:
Quote fromThere still aren't any armor restriction planned. Armor is a different issue as it's shown in much the same was as Diablo II, so more types don't actually increase the animation/modeling costs like weapon types would.
And, of course, he would not be a very good Blizzard representative if he did not end on a note of ambiguity, throwing any facts back to the wind of imprecision:
Quote from[B][I]The list of what weapon types are or aren't allowed for each class aren't final and could change.[/I][/B'] They're fairly logical choices and what is most commonly seen as closely tied to the hero archetypes. In our current game the wizard can't wield a two-handed sword for instance, but can still use a one handed sword and shield if so desired.
With that, we end with a hope of what is on most of our minds as we consider the newer implementations and focuses in the up-coming sequel to the decade-old Diablo franchise- that the ideas that they are choosing to work with are primarily focal points that they want to make the series, as a whole, better with in this new installment, focusing on the first-hand rational issues:
Quote fromWe want to spend our time and effort on what makes sense to making the game better.
(See [B]here [/B]for a similar discussion.)
I have a lvl 70 enhance shammy ( I stopped playing soon after WotLK). So I do understand a weapons importance. it is just that in WoW I worried more about getting a new spell than a new weapon. where as in Diablo I focused more on getting a new weapon than spells. Maybe it is just me. I just feel that weapons>spells in diablo (excluding hammerdins:P) where in WoW spells>weapons. Of course to casters it usually was just a stat booster but even with my sorc I was more excited about getting a better staff than finally being able to cast blizzard (is that wierd?). Maybe because the spells were set but the itme drops were randomized. Maybe in my own head it has nothing to do with game play and significance as much as I was happier to luckily get this better item that I might not have otherwise.IMO I don't want to get the most excited about a rune drop compared to a weapon. I don't want to be "ALRIGHT!! another multi-strike rune.. ohh and a better mace." I want "ALRIGHT!!! a better mace and look a rune I can use."
I agree that spells should supplement ur attacks and they shouldnt replace them. But i dont think thats what they are doing. In fact i think that by cutting down on what type of weapons each class can use they can concentrate on the weapons for each individual class w/o having to make animations for all weapons with all classes. But hell idk its very unlikely that Blizzard messes up on the whole weapons/skills system they never really messed up on any game before, so why would they now.
He made a Paladin and would alternate between using a sword and bow/crossbow. It actually worked quite well for the time he used it although he got bored of the game by Act 3 Normal and quit. Anyways, I always thought what he did was sort of nifty and I'll be sad to see it gone. It was a pretty impractical feature I guess but it was still pretty fun. And not to mention, it also helped make the game just a little more immersive.
I think another thing people need to think about is that they are not going to put specific modifiers on weapons to force people to use them. To me this translates to either weapons being more generic or possibly that they will be left more "undefined " for the use of some type of crafting or other system that can modify how the weapon functions (and no not talking about runes, since those seem to point to being on the character). Though maybe not as much variety can be used by each class, but that in no way in my opinion means they will be A) useless unmodifiable or C) not appear different when modified.
How about spend your time DEVELOPING EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of the game anyone could ever want, rather than going...
"LOLZ WE'RE LAZY SO IF WE DEVELOP CLASSES USING EVERY WEAPON IT'D CUT INTO OTHER FEATURES."
Uhhh... WHY.
Dont you have the resources to do WHATEVER you want and take as long as you want?
All I can see is a Diablo 3 less like the previous Diablo's and more like World of Warcraft and Activision. This is complete crap.
Edit:
Bashiok's conversation translated -
"We're taking out more stuff in Diablo 3 that made Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 great."
get over it, get good, or go play diablo 2
no one said you had to buy this game
and as for nubcannon LordRayken up there, a Warlock will not use a staff with Agi/Stam/AP, why would a wizard use a barb axe?
Seriously I dont know why people worry so much, this freakin blizzard we're talking about. Have they ever let us down like Peter Molyneaux
My initial reation to this thread: "Good news, seems like they are really going at every aspect of the game, but I'm sure as hell that a bunch of immature people who make a living out of jumping to conclusions and critisizing will load the thread with retarded ass comments."
So I then took the liberty of writing a post that explained in greater detail why this didn't affect the customizability of the game whatsoever. And as always, the less then pleasant hate mongers didn't even stop to read it, or to try to understand what the thread implied.
The only thing that got through their thick skulls and rather empty heads was "HOLY SHIT THEY ARE REMOVING SOMETHING!, THIS IS BAD! Let's spam retarded nonsense to protest"
Here is some of the retarded nonsensical shit that they spew out in a matter of minutes, and that I will gladly refute for them.
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Majpain
It's almost like your trying to pretend that you read the full explanation by Bashiok saying that the caster will be able to weild a ssword n shield, just not a 2 handed 200 pound maul or battle axe. So no, your comment has absolutely no meaning.
There might be spells that eventually down the line will be stronger than others in certain situations, but that's just normal, name me a game that doesn't have a relatively near OP situation. 2, even if they did allow weapons like D2, some spells might still end up OP, or weapons, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, your just crying over nothing once again and making up excuses to do it.
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Darkligen
I absolutely love this post, haha
1, this is what i had posted even before darligen came on, that in D2, the only time you saw someone using a necro wielding a maul was because he needed the stat boost for his specific build. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's a maul. Only stats.
And second, with all the OP and OMFG builds that came up on D2, it's histerical to see this guy pretend his build was any good. I mean cmon, what was it, a summoner? a bone spell spammer? Whatever it was, I'm sure as fuck that you never killed nothing maybe apart from a Normal difficulty act 1 fallen with the maul itself. It was all about the skills, which is what Blizz is improving.
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SFJake
Lol, I love this guy, I even got a couple of his quotes....:D
Yeah your absolutely right SFJake, that's why u come on here every day praying that Bashiok gives us news worth talking about. He really should listen to you, I mean even with his very detailed explanation on this subject he managed to lose you after the Title Line, It must be his poor communication skills......
If I didn't know better, I would say that you actually knew a tid bit about game designing, seeing as you don't, at that's about as obvious as f*ck, then why don't you try and make a gaming engine for them that's up to your standars...
And honestly, alot of things might sound rediculous to you SFJake, but let me tell you what's rediculous to me (apart from your ramblings). Waiting even longer than I already have for D3 just because they need to implement thousands of different 3D modeling so that your retarded ass WtichDoctor can swing a Giant Battle Axe just so you'll feel better.
Get the point?
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scyberdragon
I do admit this post made one or two valid issues that could be a source of discussion...
But still, you are totally off basis if u think that weapons ever mattered for casters when they didn't. Caster only ever cared about 2 things ; + to skill and cast rate. (and some other spell damage booster) The only chars that ever worried about damage were obviously non casters (barbs, pally zonz, etc.) But then again your point is invalid because you never saw a barb wielding anything but weapons that will still be able to use in D3. Don't try to tell me that a barb would need the attack power of a fucking staff or crossbow. Or that your sorceress ever fucking used a thunder maul to hit something... Weapons still will have the exact same role, which is to offensive chars , provide damage and some stats, and to casters, provide stats. Period.
Don't "OMG my barb can't use his crossbow, weapons must not mean shit anymore".
Please.
scyberdragon
First off, WTF is this auto attack shit your talking about???:confused:
There is a swing action (attack) and a skill, then a spell. Stop with the nonsense.
Second, what you just said is contradictory, your abolutely right on that. Third, it doesn't matter what you used to beat the game on normal since it's not what kept people playing for 9 years. People didn't play Single Player for more then a few months at best.
The magic of Diablo was item find, Dueling, trading, and leveling to 99. Nothing to do with this subject. And if you actually stop and listen to yourself, "im more excisted in finding the staff of my sorc then the spell". Why do you think you needed that staff? uhhh skills and stats..... And why are you even talking about staffs ans sorcs since casters will still be able to use them..... Maybe if u said, I was more excited about my sorc finding her new battle Axe, then it would of been to the point, and you would of actually had a reason to be worried cause they wont be able to wield them anymore. but no.
Basically what your saying is you like Magic FInding..ok good for you, I do too. Let's move on to the actual thread ok.
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Musica
Here we go, someone who actually has a reason to complain. He is one of the many who liked the lolz factor from the wierd ass and near useless off builds. Your bro had a good reason for quitting, if you made me go through D2 with a pally holding a crossbow, I would of quit much sooner than him. I give him props for even lasting that long. Im sure however, no, not sure, fucking positive that if he ever tried going further, would of eventually got to the point where he realized he couldnt kill shit anymore, and would of restarted a new char with proper build and weaponry. So is that why people are complaining, wanting blizzard to enable this useless shit to amuse people until act 3? I'de rather they give us another cow level instead of this useless nonsense, cmon guys....
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Majpain
I feel your pain brother, it's such a heartbreaking loss for all Diablo fans. Let's mourn together.
Last but not least, the funniest of all dumb ass posts of this thread.
MAN!! what an amazing IDEA! why didn't I think of that before, make everything perfect for EVERYONE!!!! Sure, after your sorry ass complaints it's inevitable that people will be coming on wanting Blizzard to change the characters for Homosexual Players, so that they can choose to wear pink Bras on their Barbarians, and not just on their sorceresses.
I mean according to LordRayken, Blizzard can DO ANYTHING!!!! Don't believe me, look at this
haha, classic.
Your right, this is complete crap. You should just stop coming here since it's such a letdown, you'de save the website some bandwith. Do us a favor.
Wow, that's some amazing translation. You must be over qualified for this kind of work....
However your point of view is very good for your budget. Seeing as D1 and D2 was so great and D3 will suck so much. You can just go out RIGHT now and go reinstall both games a start playing. Look on the bright side, you won't even have to wait so long like the rest of us.
Well put Ivaron. Goot to know that there are still a few people with reasoning on these forums.
And the schythe was essentially a necro weapon as well as being a polearm.
They had unique scythes with + to necro skill levels.
Grim's Burning DeadGrim ScytheTwo-Hand Damage: (72-84) To (168-196) (120-140 Avg)
Required Level: 45
Required Strength: 70
Required Dexterity: 70
Durability: 55
Base Weapon Speed: [-10]
+140-180% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds 131-232 Fire Damage
+3 To Necromancer Skill Levels
-50% Target Defense
+20% Enhanced Defense
+200-250 To Attack Rating (varies)
Fire Resist +45%
Requirements -50%
Attacker Takes Damage of 8
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therefor if there still were a necro, i would guarantee you that he would still be able to weild a scythe. Maybe not a Thunder Maul or an Ancient Axe though. But does it really matter...Even when they could, you never saw it since it was useless.
I think one of the artists on the team could have made at least one 2H axe WD animation in the time it took you to put that together. Maybe two. And WoW probably cleared at least a few hundred grand in profit in that same timespan.
Sigh. I'm sick of your stupid fucking asshole attitude.
Posting retarded shit like that against me or anyone just to make your point is fucking pathetic.
lil' furious there buddy, aren't we...
At least try to refute a point instead of trolling insults..
I might be blunt in my answers, but at least I stay on topic.
Speaking of topic, (and it did take me that long to write that long ass post) haha
It comes down to one thing. Losing useless builds that were created only because of a lack of a better item to boost stats.
Like Luckmann said
And that's about all there is to it.
A contrary point of view is that of weapon-specific skills, like Poison Dagger or the vast majority of Amazon skills. They could say that a skill requires a specific weapon type, and therefore the character could use any weapon, just not use that skill with certain weapons. The problem with this is that if NONE of the characters skills have been animated for that weapon, you might as well not have it.
Some weapon have very small proprieties, like spears have a very random damage and maces doing extra damage against undeads, but nothing that really changes the gameplay.
For exemple, a babarian with the same build using 2 different weapons have close to none difference.
So i really don't care if my wizard can't use a axe or a mace as long he/she can use a sword. I just hope that every class can use at least one weapon of every "archetype":
-Ranged
-One Handed + Shield
-Two Handed
-Dual Wielding (the hardest one to happen, but i would like to see it happening)
But overall, I am pleased with this decision.
While reading this, I came up with a fun little thing in regards to weapons and stats that would be nice if Blizz implemented. The idea is having stats play a part in how each class carries and uses each weapon. Example: A Barbarian weilds a Two handed maul. But because he has just barely reached the strength requirement, we'll say 60 str, he drags the maul around until he swings, lumbering and slow. Now say the same Barb has 90 str, now he can walk around easily with the maul on his shoulder, and he can swing much faster. And finally, say the same Barb has now reached 120 str, now he walks around twirling the maul around effortlessly, and he swings with lightning speed. I would think it wouldn't really have an affect on the game except for attack speed, but I just thought it might be a cool implementation. And it could be applied to other classes as well, a wiz could use a staff as a walking stick until he is more skilled, then he will carry it around more skillfully, like tossing it between hands, or carrying it on his shoulder. Also, if there is a dagger class, dex could affect that, causing him to toss the dagger around more when he/she is more skilled, and of course, speed in the attacks will increase.
Just a thought.
wonder if that can actually be done