Bashiok Opens Up The Item Affixes & Modifier Brainstorm Thread

In a recent thread on the Battle.net forums, Bashiok gave a nice detailed response to the users discussing affixes and modifiers in Diablo 3 and goes on to discuss auto vs. manual attribute systems:

"Thanks for the thread and I wanted to say I do appreciate the time and effort and ideas being put in to coming up with solutions for topics that are important to you. I want to try to put the idea of auto attribute allocation, the topic of this thread, in a potentially different light though. Potentially.

It seems there are really only a few core problems for those that do take issue with auto attributes when you boil it down. The loss of a customization option and the ability to create builds for characters that are apart from the norm - or even just kind of crazy and experimental. Some other issues could be a loss of a “leveling achievement” and also just the classic RPG design of manually spending points on base stats. Sort of a nostalgia issue, but still valid in its own right.

So I’ll sort of tackle these each on their own and then hopefully give you some things to think about.

First is the loss of customization, and I’ve mentioned before that we don’t think it will be an issue, but let me elaborate a bit more. With the current skill system, runes, and item affixes, as well as other unmentionables, there’s not going to be any issue with not having enough customization. If there is, bottom line, we’ll add more. We’re not going to release a game we’re not happy with, and a lack of character customization options would make us unhappy. But, even right now we have a lot more variety and ability to customize a character than Diablo II had. I’m going to come back to some of this later because we’d like your help.

Somewhat similarly is being able to create “off-spec” builds, or characters that aren’t just cookie cutter ideals of the class you’re playing. This is important to the game, and we will ensure that it doesn't get "tuned out" of the game. Most importantly though being able to manually spend attributes does not make this a possibility. Which is to say that us automatically assigning attributes does not take away the ability to make these types of characters, at all. Manual attributes were not what made them possible in Diablo II. The ability to make these types of characters relies solely on the complexity and diversity of the the options available to steer your character, and not that they come in the form of a "+" button.

The loss of a feeling of a leveling achievement is actually something we recognize and intend to address.

The nostalgia of simply having points, and spending them on base stats is probably the most difficult. Liking something because it’s familiar is difficult to argue with, but it’s also probably the easiest to overcome. Since we can’t force your memories out of you, we just have to make the best game we can and hope you realize that manual attribute assignment isn’t the best, most engaging or entertaining form of character customization possible, and that we’re offering an even deeper and richer game without those buttons. Or you’ll just forget you even cared because you're playing Diablo III and it's totally kick ass... one or the other.

Back to the part where I said we’d like your help. We want a lot of items in the game, and with that we want to have a lot of affixes. The largest pool of character-focusing mojo is coming from your items, so we plan to have a very diverse selection. While we have been and continue to come up with as many affixes as we can we’d like some help from you guys in coming up with more. We have some pretty crazy stuff already but I don’t want to influence your creativity - plus when it’s one we already have and it goes in to the game you can tell all your friends it was your idea. So if you'd like somewhere to focus your creative energy, this is the place.

That aside I know I missed some specific concerns and points, so any follow up questions are welcome. Being Friday I’ll try to get to some today but they may have to wait until next week."
That lengthy post of his appears to have vanished now, and instead, Bashiok has opened up a new brainstorming thread on the Battle.net forums for all of us to participate in where he went on to explain:

"In a recent thread I gave some information on our customization options in Diablo III. In that thread I also let everyone know that we’re adding a ton of new item affixes. We’re looking to have a lot of interesting stats and to really kick down the gates and see how many different modifications we can throw out there. To help us with that we’d like you to throw out some of your own ideas.

An affix is essentially is just a stat or modifying statement on an item. It may increase a basic stat like Strength, or it may do something a bit more interesting like cause an enemy to take nature damage over time. An example of the kind of post we’re looking for (these aren’t final):

Increased chance to find gold
Additional XP gained from killing monsters
Restores life for each successful hit

It’s not necessary to worry about how balanced it may or may not be, if it scales or is a fixed amount, or any in-depth details on how it will play out. This is essentially a brainstorm. Throw out your ideas however crazy they may sound and let us worry about seeing if it’ll work or not, and how. A list just like the one I gave works perfectly well for us. If you want to also throw on an affix name feel free but it isn’t necessary.

Let's keep any discussion to a minimum too please. It's a brainstorm, this isn't a place to critique off the wall ideas.

Also I know a thread was already started, which I’ve now locked, and I wanted to thank Reddog22 for starting that and everyone that’s already posted. Please go ahead and copy and paste what you’ve already posted into this thread to keep it consolidated. Thanks!"
So if there are any affixes and modifiers you would definitely like to see in Diablo 3, be sure to visit the Brainstorming thread on Battle.net and post your ideas so they'll be heard! Who has some ideas? Also, what are your opinions on manual vs. auto stat systems?

Comments

  • #1 kefka666333abc123
    I prefered the manual stat system, but I can live with auto stats its not that bad as long as the game devs make up for that lack of customization somewhere else int he game. Altho in the end everyone's stats were the same in D2....
  • #2 Magistrate
    I'm really happy to see this on their part- more show of their willingness to consider the views and opinions of their fans even though they don't really have to. That goes to show, at least to me, that they know what they're doing.
  • #3 Eldius
    The automatic stat system is fine, it just takes some getting used to.
  • #4 BadassBarb1510
    If any of you have an account on those forums, would you please add my suggestions to the list? I play a D2 mod right now, and have for some time so I don't have my account anymore... Its the Zy-El mod for those interested :P (awesome/crazy mod)... Anyway here are a few I thought up...

    Soul Storing - the item stores the souls of those killed, and after x souls stored, it unleashes them on the
    next attack (or any other variety of things it can do with them... Heal / AoE / shock wave... the list is
    long)

    Soul Rising - Enemies killed have a % chance to return as undead minions (think conversion but after they die)

    Double Edged - has a chance to hit twice during a single attack (or an extra time if using something like WW)

    Second Chance - when a killing blow is dealt to you, you survive with 1 HP. (example: you have 25 health, a
    monster hits you for 50, you go down to 1 HP instead of dying instantly.)
  • #5 Robiwan
    WOW! I'm going back to the future now to play D3!!! Cheers People! :p
  • #6 tenaciousg
    Quote from "kefka666333abc123" »
    I prefered the manual stat system, but I can live with auto stats its not that bad as long as the game devs make up for that lack of customization somewhere else int he game. Altho in the end everyone's stats were the same in D2....

    the problem you'd have with manually assigned stats is that players like wizards, will become nukers and then you have your melee barb who's trying to pk, but wont have much of a chance with that wizard teleporting around throwing godlike crap at you. even if melee barb tried to counter a nuker it would be near impossible to level the k/d ratio between the two if they were to have a couple rounds, you either got full str, leaving your barb dry in health or full health.. which isnt gonna do much. don't be dissapointed cause ya heard they will do it automatically, just put some thought into why they did that.

    oh and guys you apparently don't have to worry about the name of the affixe bashiok didnt write down something like this.

    thieving jerk - increased gold drop from monsters
    i raise you one, omg xp! - higher experienced gained from monsters

    lol. goodluck guys create some good ones.
  • #7 cheebalover
    this only prooves that d3 is in early stages of developpment, and it makes me sad.
  • #8 Doppelganger
    Its basically the same argument over and over again.
    So let me try to question manual vs auto attribute placement in a different way.
    First off, i still think its a bad idea to auto attributes. But do i think that because they will be auto the game will have less customization, or will be less fun then the previous games, or won't allow for off-beat builds,...? Nope. The reason why is that all those arguments are barely relevant.
    Lets look at it like this, why are they now opting for auto? Not once did Bashiok answered that question. He argued that auto attributes doesn't persé mean all of the above (less customization, less fun, and so on), but he never once argued what good auto will do. I ask myself why. Note very well that he doesn't bring up the (tired from being used by some) excuse of "balance". Obviously whenever you simplify the game (or a part of the game) then the game (or that particular part of the game) will be easier to balance. That coupled with the lack of him even bringing it up means it can't possibly be the actual reason. (Or maybe it can, but Blizzard is afraid to admit it)
    To conclude, why do is still believe it to be a really bad decision? Simple, we are talking about four (extremely basic, thus RPG light, which is perfectly fine for a hack & slash) attributes, and for some unknown and unexplained reason the customization of those (just) 4 attributes needs to be decided by Blizzard in advance instead of the player when playing the game.
    Thus i ask Blizzard, exactly what is the point of still having those attributes in the current game anyways? To not turn off people expecting some visual nostalgia? Because as far as i can see, you could just as easily maintain all the customization Bashiok argued about in the so called favor of auto attributes without even having to need those attributes at all.
    (For people that do not understand why currently, as far as i know, attributes are utterly irrelevant apart from vanity mode. Its quite easy. Attributes will only be affected by items, disregarding leveling because that effect is absolutely linear and thus redundant. Thus whatever will effect the attributes may as well be a part of the items themselves and therefor making the attributes on the character screen absolutely obsolete)
  • #9 PhrozenDragon
    Quote from "Doppelganger" »

    Thus i ask Blizzard, exactly what is the point of still having those attributes in the current game anyways? To not turn off people expecting some visual nostalgia? Because as far as i can see, you could just as easily maintain all the customization Bashiok argued about in the so called favor of auto attributes without even having to need those attributes at all.
    (For people that do not understand why currently, as far as i know, attributes are utterly irrelevant apart from vanity mode. Its quite easy. Attributes will only be affected by items, disregarding leveling because that effect is absolutely linear and thus redundant. Thus whatever will effect the attributes may as well be a part of the items themselves and therefor making the attributes on the character screen absolutely obsolete)

    The difference will exist between classes, giving certain classes a predisposition towards certain stats. A barbarian will (I presume) have more strength than a wizard, meaning that even with the best strength-gear on both classes, the barbarian would still get a slight advantage, emphasizing that he is a melee character at heart.
  • #10 Yngvar
    I'll probably miss manually assigning stat points when I think about how much more HP I could've had if I could put points in Vitality instead of useless Energy or whatever. :]
    On the other hand, it won't matter at all, when other players are in the same situation and I'm not at a disadvantage or anything. And the game is balanced with not being able to do this in mind... so it's just fine.

    I'm glad to hear D3 has already got more customization than D2. D2 had tons of different builds, so it'll be fun to see how many we'll be able to make.
  • #11 Blackwing
    Sounds interesting.
  • #12 InstantLite
    I think items should be level and achievement based (Like completing a quest) and instead of the old system of dex, str, etc, have more unique attributes like overpower (Pushes the monster a certain distance)
  • #13 SNowfreak
    that was awfully rude of Bashiok lol...what CD key do i need to make a account on Battlenet forums. I want to post my thoughts on affixes lol.
  • #14 scarcoke
    I want to keep this reply simple, so here it is.
    I totally agree with Bashiok, there's a person with some sense of professional gaming experiences.
    i will quote:

    "Or you’ll just forget you even cared because you're playing Diablo III and it's totally kick ass... one or the other."

    There u have it, by the time u reach the first boss and probably lvl 6 any mature gamer will just wont care anymore, the game will completely absorb you.
  • #15 stheneboea
    I definitely think it will take away from the game to have auto-stats. It is a feature that I really miss in WoW and that is what it will be like, where everyone that plays highend content specs the same, looks for the same gear, etc, because mathematically that is the best character you can create.

    Stats are the cornerstone of RPGs, and to take the control away form the player really removes a lot of the 'role-playing' aspect in my opinion. It also adds a lot of depth having to balance the points your put in the different stats in able to keep up with both gear requirements and health/mana needs, while also giving you versatility in the character you create.

    The visual changes they are making I am excited about, I think they have a nice stylized look going and things really did have to change with the switch to 3D. But all the changes they are making to gameplay I am not so thrilled about...

    Was D2 really broken to the point the gameplay needed such an overhaul? I figured people playing your game for 8 years meant that it was pretty good.
  • #16 Doppelganger
    Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
    The difference will exist between classes, giving certain classes a predisposition towards certain stats. A barbarian will (I presume) have more strength than a wizard, meaning that even with the best strength-gear on both classes, the barbarian would still get a slight advantage, emphasizing that he is a melee character at heart.


    With some smart design these differences between characters can also directly be included into the items themselves.
    Currently it just feels as if the so called attributes is just there for vanity, as in "look, over 9000", without it having any actual use whatsoever 'cause its all governed by items anyways (again disregarding simply leveling, which i assume is entirely linear, thus redundant apart from the visual "over 9000" effect).
    I have serious doubts, more so fueled because of the lack of any actual reason why to get rid of it instead of making it better.
    Would it be a bad thing to make the thought Blizzard really is too much influenced by their own successful creation? The game that shall not be named. Because thats what i feel and feel a lot of other people feel to but are in denial or are afraid to admit it.
  • #17 hiDDen
    Quote from "Doppelganger" »
    Its basically the same argument over and over again.
    So let me try to question manual vs auto attribute placement in a different way.
    First off, i still think its a bad idea to auto attributes. But do i think that because they will be auto the game will have less customization, or will be less fun then the previous games, or won't allow for off-beat builds,...? Nope. The reason why is that all those arguments are barely relevant.
    Lets look at it like this, why are they now opting for auto? Not once did Bashiok answered that question. He argued that auto attributes doesn't persé mean all of the above (less customization, less fun, and so on), but he never once argued what good auto will do. I ask myself why. Note very well that he doesn't bring up the (tired from being used by some) excuse of "balance". Obviously whenever you simplify the game (or a part of the game) then the game (or that particular part of the game) will be easier to balance. That coupled with the lack of him even bringing it up means it can't possibly be the actual reason. (Or maybe it can, but Blizzard is afraid to admit it)
    To conclude, why do is still believe it to be a really bad decision? Simple, we are talking about four (extremely basic, thus RPG light, which is perfectly fine for a hack & slash) attributes, and for some unknown and unexplained reason the customization of those (just) 4 attributes needs to be decided by Blizzard in advance instead of the player when playing the game.
    Thus i ask Blizzard, exactly what is the point of still having those attributes in the current game anyways? To not turn off people expecting some visual nostalgia? Because as far as i can see, you could just as easily maintain all the customization Bashiok argued about in the so called favor of auto attributes without even having to need those attributes at all.
    (For people that do not understand why currently, as far as i know, attributes are utterly irrelevant apart from vanity mode. Its quite easy. Attributes will only be affected by items, disregarding leveling because that effect is absolutely linear and thus redundant. Thus whatever will effect the attributes may as well be a part of the items themselves and therefor making the attributes on the character screen absolutely obsolete)

    With some smart design these differences between characters can also directly be included into the items themselves.
    Currently it just feels as if the so called attributes is just there for vanity, as in "look, over 9000", without it having any actual use whatsoever 'cause its all governed by items anyways (again disregarding simply leveling, which i assume is entirely linear, thus redundant apart from the visual "over 9000" effect).
    I have serious doubts, more so fueled because of the lack of any actual reason why to get rid of it instead of making it better.
    Would it be a bad thing to make the thought Blizzard really is too much influenced by their own successful creation? The game that shall not be named. Because thats what i feel and feel a lot of other people feel to but are in denial or are afraid to admit it.


    Rofl. What are you talking about? This is indeed a big one stupid and blind argument for not having stats (obviously you are just upset with autostats and "The game that shall not be named - hater" just like 95% of all you qq guys..). Can you tell me why for example AD&D had the stats? Why? Cause they wasn't even auto, they practically didn't change at all as you leveled up. You wanna know why? It's because (apart from the game mechanics which uses stats directly for calculating various actions) of the character personality, because of the character background, because of the role, because of the game flavour, and because Diablo is RPG as well... you tard...
  • #18 kefka666333abc123
    Quote from "tenaciousg" »
    the problem you'd have with manually assigned stats is that players like wizards, will become nukers and then you have your melee barb who's trying to pk, but wont have much of a chance with that wizard teleporting around throwing godlike crap at you. even if melee barb tried to counter a nuker it would be near impossible to level the k/d ratio between the two if they were to have a couple rounds, you either got full str, leaving your barb dry in health or full health.. which isnt gonna do much. don't be dissapointed cause ya heard they will do it automatically, just put some thought into why they did that.

    oh and guys you apparently don't have to worry about the name of the affixe bashiok didnt write down something like this.

    thieving jerk - increased gold drop from monsters
    i raise you one, omg xp! - higher experienced gained from monsters

    lol. goodluck guys create some good ones.


    I see where your coming from. But it was not like this in diablo 2. Nor do you know enough about the D3 gameplay mechanics to say how stats will affect gameplay in anyway.

    Quote from "SNowfreak" »
    that was awfully rude of Bashiok lol...what CD key do i need to make a account on Battlenet forums. I want to post my thoughts on affixes lol.


    Diablo 2 or LOD cd key i thinks
  • #19 Doppelganger
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    Rofl. What are you talking about? This is indeed a big one stupid and blind argument for not having stats

    So you agree with me, or misread the entire frikkin thing.
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    (obviously you are just upset with autostats and "The game that shall not be named - hater" just like 95% of all you qq guys..).

    Oh well, that answers it.
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    Can you tell me why for example AD&D had the stats? Why? Cause they wasn't even auto,

    Does not compute broken sentences, try again.
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    they practically didn't change at all as you leveled up.

    Duh, you choose your stats at the beginning of the game. Its like "extreme customization". Didn't you know?
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    You wanna know why?

    Oh right, you're gonna tell me...
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    It's because (apart from the game mechanics which uses stats directly for calculating various actions) of the character personality, because of the character background, because of the role, because of the game flavour,

    What the? Please make sense next time.
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    and because Diablo is RPG as well

    No its not.
    Quote from "hiDDen" »
    ... you tard...

    You misspelled "smart", try again.
  • #20 hiDDen
    LOOOOOOL man, funny man ya are. You've just made the most helpless argument ever dude... blahah..

    Quote from "Doppelganger" »
    What the? Please make sense next time.


    Please buy a brain and learn something about RPG's..

    Quote from "Doppelganger" »
    No its not.


    Yes, of course it is RPG. You should learn more before you post..

    Quote from "Doppelganger" »
    Duh, you choose your stats at the beginning of the game. Its like "extreme customization". Didn't you know?


    You missed the point dude..
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