DiabloFans

hmmmm, you're right. troubles at work...

but i really love the game, i bought 3 copies! and was thinking about 4th! for the lan parties... but MP is just plain bad, and i feel... betrayed. by my favourite game ever. worse, they are going the wrong way, they are going the wrong way, right now, with 1.05, they are going the wrong way! how come nobody realizes?

alright, just one, a quick one, mind you. don't ask for best-of-three later!

Quote from Laokin

Diablo II was broken when it came out too. It also lacked runes and jewels and charms until LoD. And half of the cool uniques were added in LoD too, same with set items. Immortal King's was an LoD set, Ral Rasha's was an LoD set.

Do you guys not remember DII's launch? It was rebalanced every patch, and what did that mean in DII, not only did you have to regear, but you had to re-roll and start over, because your build didn't work anymore and there was no respec.

DII didn't get really good until LoD, and even at that, not until 1.09. That's real talk.

EXACTLY because i remember diablo2 launch, i have to contradict you. d2 had one thing that d3 currently lack desperately - replayability. no penalty for wrong skill choice makes 5 heroes enough forever. so, BASIC d2 could be played for extended amount of time, while d3 in current state cannot - in a while, players will level all heroes to 60, then to *some* paragons, then get bored. and main character can always do item farming for others. there isn't even ladder - ok, a group of fanatics WILL continue to play ad infinitum, but 5,000,000? nope.

uniques were crappy, sets worthless in original, runes/runeword and charms were worthy addition of d2lod - all true, but what's the point?

does d3 have to repeat every mistake made in d2? why not having good uniques now? why not charms? why not something even cooler? MP was NEVER so bad in d2, for one point - why not making it good? nope, it's bad and we probably have to wait 1.06 or more that someone come out with idea 'hey, why not giving better loot chance and more exp in MP? playing with other people should be FUN!'

i refuse to accept any argument based on 'd2 was also...' - the game is out for more than 10 years. lots of things were learned through its development. and now we have to go back to school, no - kindergarten AGAIN and have to learn things like not to make useless uniques. just compare damn thing with things sold in AH, and make it equal. or better. not the rare with one or two fixed and 3 random affixes. of course it will be bad more often than not - most of legendaries are essentially rares with few fixed affixes

currently, d3 is doomed to be disliked by following group of players:
1. PvP players
2. MP players
3. players liking replayability
4. players liking competition in PvE - how do i know that famous barbarian is actually better than me? this will need some explanation - yes, he did invested much more time in d3 then me, obviously. ok, but for d2 play, i also invested huge amount of time on something very similar - 1000-2000h he has more than me actually means nothing. but 0.5 billion equipment does. seasons were for that purpose - ok, i made wrong choices at start (like leveling hero that i don't like at all, then restarting), learned something - ok, lets have another one - ok, 99% that i chose wrong example, especially in barbarian current balance - but hey! i want to compete! not that i'm wasting anyone's time! it's PvE? whatif i turn in top10?

[for the record, i've read your post on official forum. not bad, but i'll stick with my two millenia old deity. and i don't have anything against you or rest of your post, except part of "d2 was bad so d3 have to be also" - which is way way too common. and i play the game every day. i just dislike the fact that it can be made so much better so easily, and it isn't]

no, diablo 3 is fine as it is!

joking, of course, on expense of people who do this on every occasion - every fix, including simple interface options, is unneeded, because game is perfect, and they-so-pro-that-change-is-noob as in recent CTRL poll, where they deny usefulness of rebinding keys.

me-so-pro-that-use-alkaizer-or-what-is-his-name-route-only-me-no-need-random-things. game perfect. what i never understood was how people mindlessly copying what others do call themselves a players? where is the fun in game? never ever my barbarians whirlwinded, and never ever will.

"you, herr, are ein noob"
"yes, but lvl99 noob" (diablo2)

on routing, i worship Clavdivs, The God - he gives it on demand, and that lazy bastard johnny who is supposedly fixing the site will HAVE to work faster - anyway, it was forseen before 1.03 (the god doesn't delete things), then underlined after paragon monster exp equality, than again in last one i have - regarding full linearity of game - not a single 'free' level, not a single 'bad turn', you even have to talk to stupid leah for moving stupid cart. and to talk about optional bigger quest, like countess or ANY main quest being optional - for linearity game gets pure 10. alas-me-so-noob-that-i-like-having-my-game-more-open

i have a hard habits from d2, so i immediately remmaped SPACE back to old function. new ALT is bothering me also, used to press it for pickup things, wish it remained at old function and "show all" to be some other button. as for CTRL, i usually force move d2 style, but new CTRL function means NOTHING to me. same as old alt. then again, force move is getting along with my wc3 habits, so i guess i would start to use it

as of now, i didn't press CTRL ONCE. but it would be best if it could be remapped, why wouldn't it? voted for force move, but my real vote goes to 'can be rebinded'

damn! you're right, using marginal value caused an error! and for the nHP on 'other sites', i suggest you to go THERE and bug people to do calcs for you...

my spirit is empty - i must atone for my shame...

now on der table1 we can see ze influence of ze armour and resistances COMBINED IN PERFECT SQUARE ORDER, the influence of ze defense on HP:



on ze picture below, we can observe difference between adding +10 vitality and +10 strength OR intelligence (breaks even) in percentages

http://www2.picturep...mg/10703625.jpg

[DAMN THIS FORUM AND ITS CONFUSING PICTURE INSERT POLICY! IF YOU WANT TO ENJOY THE TABLE2 IN WHOLE ITS GLORY, CLICK ON A LINK ABOVE!]

now, what's actually interest is that, once say 750 vitality is reached and armour/resistance is 6000/600 or greater, STRENGTH OR INTELLIGENCE BECOME VIRTUALLY EVEN WITH ADDITIONAL VITALITY.

conclusion is that characters, after reaching this point, can use str, int and vit as equal.

while this has no particular significance on character build, it may save some money for people when buying on AH - they can buy int/str item as WD, and gains are same as int/vit, yet price is significantly lower. or it can help you decide in keep/sell situations...

bottomline: str/int are not COMPLETELY useless, they start as such, but at endgame they break even with vitality... oh, and doing the +1 on attribute also contributed to initial mistake, i did +100 also, and it looks a lot like +10, except initial losses are greater (much) and late gains are also greater (miserably, less then 0.8%). anyway, whole thing progresses with investment, but i doubt investing +500 strength instead +500 vitality for +2.5% hp means much...

Quote from ruksak

Rage Quitters (Legendary Boots)

+100% Resolve in quitting
-600 Hours of my life
100% Chance to cast Don't Give a Fuck 'Til PvP

you actually expect to find more than 600+ h of fun in PvP? you should play mortal combat or something like that, man!

I, von Oberstain, a reluctant follower of Gott Clavdivs, made this graph showing dubious usefulness of armour and resistance on various vitality / (armour OR resist, they break the same with the hal's restrictions shown above)



it shows basically how ridiculous are secondaries, and the points where they start to show some use, for:
1) no armour (ill adviced)
2) armour 3000
3) armour 6000 (act3 prefference)
4) armour 9000 (buffed with skills or uber-geared)

i'll think i'll leave it for hal to comment or add something, then feast on his imminent mistakes

oh, yes, and i'll never use imageshack again... http://picturepush.com/ is a place to go

anyway, what does it mean? for a chosen vitality (one of upper rows), you can see gain in hp of each additional vit, str/int and their ratio...

for example investing at str/int becomes profitable for a character with 750 vitality and 9000 armour, everything below is just a waste of resources. not to mention early investment in secondaries - just a few percentiles of what player gains with vit investments.

wow. you summarized it all in two sentences! you must be a genius!

you took premises and post them as conclusions, didn't read anything, but put info found on official site - so i awe you deeply!

allow me to add a bit to your all-knowingless - theme of last posts was how to make secondary attributes NOT sucking and worth getting, and some nice (but still highschool in nature math by hal about ratio of armor/resistance and gain/lose of bad one).

but you never bother to read anything that wasn't written by you do, you? browse post, act smug and leave. and name 'undodgeable' spells, allknowning one, so you can be of some use

a good analysis, though it contain only one point. they are equal when near 1:10 ratio, true.

another point, HAL, is dexterity as secondary - an effect that cannot be accurately measured or calculated - here, for a reasons unknown, you can dodge a spell or fire-pond you're standing in - basically you dodge DAMAGE. one thing is sure, it's NOT overpowered in current state, since primaries are simply too good - i, as an example DO take items with large secondary attributes when found or buy them when cheap, but ultimately seek to replace them with ones contain primaries and vitality

now something that is no point at all, just fact - armour goes all the way from starting ~200 (top pieces) to ~700, for most types. strength found is dependent of item, but say up to 150 (to generalize and be on the safe side) - so, it's 850 in total

resistance goes up to 80, equaling 800 armour, while intelligence goes again up to 150 - so it's 950 in total

ok, i'll make a point, finally:
+ALL RESISTANCE max is bit too much ('a bit' being keyword), but secondaries in general (including elusive dexterity/dodge), give too little reason to chose them in any ratio, compared to huge 1% weapon damage from primaries

that is why i support The Gods proposition of making them stronger, probably 2-3 times for str/int and yet unknown value for dex. and +ALL RESISTANCE could be lowered a bit, to say +70 max, maybe lower, so buffed intelligence becomes more needed than it's currently

also, i advocate giving secondaries a low damage bonus - the are exclusively defensive now, and having an form of offensive value (on all secondaries) would promote their usage in various builds

this will probably break current mass primary + vitality situation, which is blunt, unsophisticated and one-sided - from any point of view, not just build diversity. it will be also a important step forward from d2

you missed point entirely, i wasn't arguing about current balance, but about "can't be balanced ever, lets leave as it is"/"cheers, bro, well said" kind of posts - this is a complete and utter nonsense, which deserved to be commented

and you're one STILL whining about hammerdins, not me... what happened, some sad sad story from your childhood? a hammerdin broke your toys?

HAL??? well, hi, i guess... i suppose you'll going to contradict me again on every matter.

true, i was bit too harsh, sorry everyone.

but i don't accept examples from other games as proof that balance shouldn't be even tried to be made.

on your's vote matter, though we voted the same, OP was clearly wanting 1.0.4 situation, and not what-whill-happen-after-next-patch. but DH concept BECOME ill-conceived, true, what now - he/she can summon wolves? and is fighting with bows and traps, but not daggers of close weapons, which would be more normal.... but i'm deriving out of the topic...

Quote from Bogok

Quote from Bleu42

What? There was a LOT of unbalance in the other diablo games !! Hammerdins anyones? How about the sorcerer in D1? Stack str for heavy armor and spam mana shield, invulnerable. You just didn't hear about it as much because there wasn't as many people on forums.

There will never be true balance in this game or any game, they can only make it close. And the grass is always greener on the other side.

Well spoken

ill spoken. SP - imbalances doesn't mattered - take easier or harder class or build, you're playing for own pleasure. MP - imbalances doesn't matter by default, players are joined against common enemy. PvP is only mode where imbalances mattered, but i don't like it - though i won them all

on the other hand, HERE imbalances matter a great deal, since you play against THE HOUSE. like a roulette. against AUCTION HOUSE, to be precise. and what if 1/5 players have increased luck by 10% by default? and 2/5 has it decreased? that does matter a lot!

and before it did not... some kid exploiting hammerdin to the max? what the hell do i care? here, i have to give him hard earned gold, cause only advance is through items, and he can get them and i can not? can i compensate? nope, there aren't 99 levels. so this is the game where balance means the most, and there is least of it

i'm not hating, but reacting to a pure nonsense - just because previous games had some imbalances (boring to play, btw), we shouldn't have balance now? that's your point?

or that imbalance is unavoidable? it's nonsense, meta-game evolves all the time, and new exploits/imbalances are discovered all the time. so, game makers react to them and achieve relative balance again. it won't last or be perfect, but will be better, and sometimes weaker classes/factions/whatever are intentionally overbuffed to compensate for past. balance is dynamic thing, but it can be maintained more or less.

so, barbarians gonna be low tier now? how about 25% monster nerf, which is whole reason for mentioned 10% armor / res reduction? this kinda evens it out - in fact not, even by blizzard calculations it nerfs monster more than it does defensive skills...

that aside - i know too well that this is NOT how math is done - but for a case of simplification (essence is kept, and we don't use numbers for anything but comparing, so their blind summing up inaccuracy is irrelevant):

1. barbarian =77 + 13 = 90%
2. DH/wizard = ~ 40%
3. monk/WD = miserable ~15%

right conclusion would be that DH/wizard are, say 'normal' classes, barbarian is currently OP in need of nerf, while monk and WD needs buffs

i voted for barbarians, since most people on live channels are barbarians and i saw them performance and gear and... looks like they are not connected

secondly for demon hunter - sheer number of them is a proof. it's easier to find a MP game with 3 demon hunters than it is with one monk, for example. i know blizzard gave different numbers, but my personal experience is that game is swarming with DHs. or maybe just the multiplayer is

new patch note says DH is a 'binary' class, which i don't agree with at all - they are number of builds that DH can use and still be on a level of, say, WD. same goes to barbarian.

(i had played decent amount of time with both barbarians and DHs, if anyone asking)

always! but you mentioned you like graphics and d2 is kinda... well, it's 800x600 and 4:3, looks worse on widescreens TFT than it does on CRT, if you happen to have one

be warned, for a reasons unknown, it WON'T WORK on certain hardware anymore - i'm kinda good with that stuff and couldn't make it run properly - graphics gets really messed up randomly, so you have to restart the game. on legacy systems, it works fine...

i've spent days looking for solutions on internet, and found only that minority of people have it, and most of them don't - hardware/driver configurations of affected were wildly different, while on some newest hardware game worked flawless