Dashing Strike scaling with attack speed only really helps it for DW'ing, but you're of course right in pointing out that there's no delay on the dash. I still think it should be a targetted ability like the heroic leap for warriors.
In longer fights Serenity will still allow you to ignore stuff like Skeleton King's Whirlwind and to some extent his teleport ability. It'll allow you to ignore Siegebreakers charge and it'll allow you to immune Rakanoth's charge double hit ability. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's just a 20% dmg reduction in longer fights as it has so many other applications than just ignoring dmg.
Wave of light does indeed pack a punch with a 2hander, I don't think there needs to be a lot addressed in regards to the damage. As you point out, the cost is one of the main drawbacks of the ability, the spell queue being the most prominent one as I see it right next to the targeting functionality.
- 10/1/2012 7:46:57 PM Posted in: Monk: The Inner Sanctuary
10/1/2012 7:05:47 PM
Right you are! I will go over that section and correct it tomorrow.Posted in: Monk: The Inner Sanctuary
10/1/2012 6:53:26 PM
~~ Figured it out.Posted in: Monk: The Inner Sanctuary
10/1/2012 6:04:29 PM
I've posted it on the EU Monk Blizzard forums too, I just thought I would share it here as well. Might get better feedback here than official forums :)Posted in: Monk: The Inner Sanctuary
10/1/2012 5:18:15 PM
DisclaimerPosted in: Monk: The Inner Sanctuary
I enjoy this game. I want this game to improve just as much as the next person, this is all meant to be constructive feedback and in keeping with that approach I feel it's important that I explain my point of view before continuing. I've spent a lot of time on my monk, I've got quite good gear and I've grinded all the way to paragon lvl 100 which is to convey how I'm not entirely green and do have a lot of experience with the gameplay to draw on when making these complaints/grievances.
Thunderclap versus Everything
I remember leveling my first monk and loving crippling wave, the mangle rune made it really fun to use in aoe and I was looking forward to using it in inferno. I was green back then. Once I hit inferno it very quickly lost its appeal and even the damage reduction glyph did not redeem the use of crippling wave; I turned to Thunderclap and immediately it became obvious how amazing this rune was. I could not believe I hadn't used it before and I would even go so far as to say it felt overpowered, for several reasons:
- Thunderclap has great LoH coefficient.
- The knockback effect is very strong on mobs that hit hard/slow, this is exacerbated in higher monster power levels on the PTR.
- The dash! It's amazing how big a difference this dash makes on monk play style, it's somewhat diminished once mobs have a lot of health but even then it allows for the best mobility we have. It allows you to run away from ground effects and get quickly into battle again which is key to the monk play style; we need to punch stuff in the face to stay alive. It also removes some of the inherit problems with sweeping winds as it allows us to keep it up much easier.
Personally I think the best solution to this problem is to have the dash on all the spirit generating abilities. Would need to go over all of them and maybe buff/nerf some of them, but until this happens there will be 0 skill diversity in the spirit generators; that's how strong the dash is.
They are very clunky. I'll grant a few of the abilities some entertainment value but zero viability value. I'll go over them and outline a few of the issues with each of them, but before that I want to make a point about the monk play style that runs through part of the issues with the spirit spenders:
Monk's need to punch mobs in the face to stay alive, ignoring for the moment any discussing between LoH and LS, this is true for all monks in all kinds of gear. Hitting things fuels our spirit which fuels our spirit spenders but it also keeps us alive, we need to be up close and personal. It's not really viable for us to run from mobs, it's kill or be killed; this is a point that will become obvious to anyone playing on higher monster levels. Either you have the numbers to smash stuff in the face or you will be forced to run and die horribly in the process, there's no middle ground.
Punching mobs in the face involves staying on them, staying on them involves using thunderclap and using thunderclap involves holding your left mouse button on whatever you want to kill until it is dead. On higher monster levels this is all you do, lmb on a mob until you or the mob is dead. Why do I bring this up? Well, because it's one of the biggest limiting factors of almost all our spirit spenders. Majority of our spirit spenders are not usable while we are punching mobs in the face which makes them incredibly clunky to use. I will go over each of them now in order to exemplify these points.
Incredibly expensive, can't use while punching and has no effect on a lot of mobs. Even at full spirit and the efficiency rune you can only do 5 of them in a row with a normal spirit pool (Exalted Soul excluded for the moment). This is one of the few abilities that have a lot of potential at least, but is mostly useless due to the functionality (not being able to cast it while punching). The damage component is also barely noticeable unless you out level mobs substantially.
Seven Sided Strike:
Has the same issue with not being able to be used while punching; however it does appear to overwrite the spell queue to some extent so you can generally get it off while punching. This is far from the norm though and you will die a lot trying to use it like serenity because it just doesn't go off when punching to stay alive. The changes in 1.04 made this ability a lot more appealing but ignoring the spell queue issue for a few it still has problems. From my testing there's only 2 viable rune options here, one of those two being far superior for most content as well. I am talking about Fulminating Assault and Sudden Assault. The teleport on the ability is really nice and it's incredibly strong on single target; but once you get a few extra mobs its back to its pre-1.04 wet-noodle effect, which means in most cases if you want to use SSS you will be using the Fulminating Assault due to it's aoe nature and the majority of the game being about AoE'ing efficiently. To this end I think a good solution would be if SSS had a AoE component baseline. This would allow for some rune diversity; do I want to use it more often? Do I want increased aoe effect? Do I want extra punches? The teleport for mobility? Etc.
Another issue with SSS is that it auto cancels if the initial target dies or disappears or runs out of the effect area even if there are other viable targets in the area of effect.
Lashing Tail Kick:
I've tried to use this ability and it just doesn't work. I understand it's place in the early game where it's powerful to be able to punt back mobs that otherwise might one shot you or deal massive dmg with their melee charge up ability. That's fine. I can understand different uses at different stages of progress, but this ability completely tanks in useability once you're beyond getting one shot and that's sad. It's suffering tremendously from the fact that you can't use it while punching, I would almost say it's the biggest problem with this ability but it still has some rune issues. Another point about this ability goes back to staying alive by punching mobs; this ability makes it harder to punch mobs unless you can stay on them which in return begs us to use thunderclap. On point though, here are my issues with the runes:
Spinning Flame Kick has amazing potential but the torrent is quite weak. It covers maybe 10 yards and barely has any impact at all. This should be a potent ranged ability that travels 40+ yards to be worth considering using.
Sweeping Armada has no potential, the slow effect is too short and too weak to have any effect at all in strategy in inferno at any monster level.
Scorpion Sting is a chance ability, you can't rely on the stun and it's duration is too short to have any meaningful effect. LTK animation takes longer to execute than the duration of the stun (somewhat fixed in 1.05 with the CC changes)
Hand of Ytar has a lot of potential but falls flat on its behind by it's very low dmg and very clunky functionality (still can't use it while punching or effectively while moving around). This ability would be a lot more appealing if it had a stun function instead of a slow. In general slow abilities on the monk are not desirable at all.
Wave of Light:
The functionality and cost of this skill seems disproportionate with it's effect. You can't use it while punching. You can't chose location beyond the direction in which to execute the spell and it costs half your spirit bar. The Area of effect is far too narrow it's effect is far from desirable.
You're rooted/stunned for the duration of the animation which will kill you.
Thoughts no the runes:
Wall of Light has the same inherit problems as the baseline skill, it deals more dmg but the way it deals dmg is limited by not being able to be cast while punching and the targeting issues.
Explosive Light is the most interesting of all the runes, it addresses the issue of the very limited area of effect but at the same time comes with it's own area of effect issues: It only hits 8 directions leaving most of the screen still unaffected by using the ability. This should be a full 360 nova, maybe without the knockback.
Empowered Light has the same problems as baseline skill and the added efficiency only adds 1 extra use at a full spirit bar. This rune could make the skill free to use but add a cooldown and it would all of a sudden be interesting (ignoring all the inherit problems with the baseline skill).
Blinding Light has all the inherit problems and on live servers it has no use because the stun doesn't do anything, in 1.05 the stun will have some use and might be an option once all the inherit problems of the skill is solved.
Pillar of the Ancients. This ability comes with reduced dmg on the initial hit and 2 seconds (two seconds is forever in a fast paced game like d3) later it will explode for the same reduced dmg to make the overall dmg slightly more than the baseline skill, still not more than Wall of Light. This feels untested and I've not managed to get it to work. At best you will get around the same dmg as Wall of Light, in most cases however, you will just get the initial 280% weapon dmg and the fused dmg never hits much. Maybe if the initial hit rooted effected enemies for the duration of the "fuse" it would have some potential.
One of the few spenders that feel like it's in a good place. There's a few runes that are viable but mostly it's used for it's dps increase which trumps everything else. It's cost and cooldown is low enough to feel like you can use it a lot and it's animation is short enough to not come with any of the previously mentioned abilities' inherit problems; this one barely suffers under the spell queue issue but it's there. Combined with Sweeping Winds the Faith in the Light rune is a bit too strong and adds a level of complexity the monk doesn't really need.
Breath of Heaven:
This ability feels like it's in a good place. It's cooldown and cost are in line with the pace of the game and it's relatively powerful. However this is turned into a maintenance spell once you realize the mathematical advantage of +15% dmg and it completely destroys it's strategy use. It would go a long way to have some scaling on this skill. I remember a blue post outlining how this spell was maybe too strong with scaling, but it should happen, it should have a strategy element.
Somehow the buff effect of this ability needs to be addressed, the +15% is too good. Maybe add it to all the runes to allow for skill diversity or get rid of it or add similarly interesting buffs to the other runes.
This ability is 100% mandatory, it'll never get replaced as it's the only skill in our arsenal (next to thunderclap dash) that allows us to stay bashing away at our enemies. It allows us to skillfully ignore many nasty abilities and as long as this is true the only viable rune option for this skill is the Ascension one or Tranquility to a certain extent, nothing will ever beat efficiency runes on an ability like this. The cost/cooldown feels in line with the pace of the game and it's a great feeling to go immune to BIG_BAD_SMASH_01. Do not change this skill too much. Suffers greatly from spell queue issues.
I've never used this ability. This game is fast paced and involves a lot of movement for any class. This ability requires that you stand still which is not very desirable. I don't have much to say about this ability since I've never used it, but please consider that fact. It should be a real alternative to serenity, that would allow for this skill to be considered.
This ability desperately needs some targeting functionality. It's basically just another thunderclap function but with the added complexity of spell queue and needing a target. This ability does nothing without a target which limits its use tremendously. The idea is there for some of the runes, in particular the stun rune is interesting on paper but fails to deliver as soon as you realize how annoying it is that it has no function if there is no target. This ability should function a lot like heroic leap for warriors in WoW. This ability also has a rune that adds a snare, I strongly suggest you go over your philosophy of the monk class and figure out if there's going to be a place for snares, if not, please get rid of them.
I don't think we'll ever see this ability properly tuned. It has all the inherit problems of corpse explosion from D2. It's either overpowered or it's not really usable. Right now we're in a situation where it has some limited use on higher monster power, but if you live long enough to kill a mob with it and causing the explosion, chances are you were winning anyway and most mobs near it will be low anyway. This ability suffers greatly from spell queue issues. This skill has baseline issues that needs to be solved before it makes sense to address any of the runes. This skill needs some rethinking to be viable.
This is almost as mandatory as Serenity. It's a fast paced ability that goes with the entire theme of the monk; keeping this up is paramount to success at any monster level in inferno. This ability is in a decent shape I'd say, it's very unique to the monk and it's very strong when you can keep it up. Keeping it up, however, is almost impossible unless you play with thunderclap and even then it will drop off which can be very frustrating. This ability allows for great kill speed and the entire flow of the class relies on this ability to be kept up, it might be too strong in that sense but for now I can live with how mandatory this skill is. Each of the runes could use some retuning, there's no competition for Cyclone's at almost any gear level or progress level. Even with a slow 2hander the cyclones are more appealing than added dmg per stack. There should be real alternatives to cyclones.
On the topic of keeping up this buff up, I think it would go a long way to fix some of the issues associated with keeping this up if you only lost 1 stack at a time when it ticks down from the 6 seconds. This allows for 18 seconds before a full stack will have fallen off which is more than enough to not completely hold back our spirit usage.
This ability's function/dmg is very limited. It's only an option to use this skill if you gear and spec around it which some people admittedly have fun with. I'm not one of them. No diversity in rune usage and the skill is no competition for any of the alternatives unless you gear around it. Might be fine, might not be, but I don't think this ability should be written off as “working just fine”.
Overawe and Mantra's:
Apart from Overawe, none of the runes really change how the use effect works at all which either means you won't ever use the mantra unless refreshing it, with one noticeable exception being MoE since it delivers a bump in survivability – I'll go over the issues with this when I get to talk about dodge.
Overawe is the only mantra that we would want to use frequently which has another issue; once you start using this mantra you will have a real hard time sustaining anything but the cheapest of spirit spenders – blind and heal, which are very close to mandatory; blind has reduced value at lower monster power level but it returns once SSS can't one shot bosses anymore. What this means is while Overawe is mathematically amazing, it is a serious hindrance to how the monk class is played and at lower monster levels it's mandatory and ruins any sense of skill diversity.
Monk's stay alive by punching mobs in the face. This point matters to every skill in the monks arsenal. In the case of our Mantra's this means that by design many runes and even baseline mantra's are not viable at all.
Mantra of healing? You can get this effect by getting the stat on a few pieces of gear and once you can stay alive by punching mobs you will barely ever see the effect of this mantra unless you're slowly going down at which point this could potentially have some effect but realistically it doesn't happen.
Mantra of retribution? The monk stays alive by punching stuff, it also stays alive by dodging a lot, which in return means that as you get gear this ability is only viable for the 8% attack speed Transgression offers which begs for a lot of changes to the baseline effect and its runes. This needs some new life somehow, either make it very strong reflect aching to the iron maiden curse from d2 or just redesign it from scratch and get all new runes.
Mantra of Evasion? Hard Target and Backlash are interesting, they feel a lot like a gear progression curve: If you're getting stomped -> use Hard Target. If you're not getting stomped but not really stomping mobs either → use Backlash. If you're stomping mobs and not getting stomped -> use Overawe. This mantra feels like it's in a good position.
One issue with the monk and dodge. Right now, if you go over each skill in our arsenal you will find that we have 2 abilities that increase our dodge chance (Dashing Strike with Blinding Speed and Fist of Thunder with Lightning Flash) then we have Mantra of Evasion and all its runes. Then we have The Guardians Path and Sixth Sense passives that also increase our dodge chance.
Dodge from skills and passives are multiplicative which is not all too obvious in the descriptions
A suggestion would be to somehow tie a mitigation passive to our dodge percent but lower the dodge percent across the board.
Overarching all the issues with Monk passives is the fact we're pigeonholed into having One With Everything, I don't propose any solutions for this and I know it's something Blizzard is already looking at. But until it's fixed this means we're effectively reduced to having 2 passives.
Of these 2 passives we're only really able to chose the defensive ones when you start to go up the monster power level ladder. But this only puts aside the fact that our passives are mostly defensive or focused around spirit generation and then one passive that increases mobility.
We have 3 passives that affect spirit in some way (Exalted Soul, Transcendence and Chant of Resonance) 1 that increase mobility (Fleet Footed) 6 that reduces damage taken in way of mitigation or avoidance. 1 that functions on death (Near Death Experience) the last 2 options we have are the only damage increasing passives we're offered and they both come with serious drawbacks (Guiding Light and Combination Strikes)
Guiding Light has no effect what so ever if you're not in a group and it has almost no effect if you're in a group with a ranged and even if you're in a group with melee it's nearly impossible to tactically use this as this game is very fast paced and our only real option to keep it up has a really short range and a cooldown.
Combination Strike is interesting, maybe don't change this too much but do allow for some other offensive options.
This leaves us with only two routes to go; either stuff hits so hard that we're forced into using a combination of our favorite defensive passives or we're beating stuff so hard that we potentially can use the mobility passive or a combination of the spirit focused passives. This is not very interesting. We should be a lot less dependent on our defensive passives, we should have 3 actual choices to make and not just 2. We need offensive passives.
I realize I've touched on a lot of different things and I suppose I could make several posts but I've chosen to include it all because it ties together in the overall "feel" of the class and there's a lot to be improved upon.
http://eu.battle.net...6/hero/17078257 For Reference
9/27/2012 10:34:13 AM
Monks are fine on mplvl 10, just need to stop playing them like most are on live. LoH is out LS is in. Not met a pack on mplvl 10 yet that I couldnt kill with ease and didn't get all my gear copied so not using a 2nd ring and still having andariels (extra fire dmg taken).Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
8/17/2012 4:05:04 PM
Sure, I don't think we're much in disagreement really. I just think the point, him stating it or not, was very valid and have reposted it in different forms on this forum. With how the class previews turned out I'm expecting to be disappointed with the MF blog, because, as the original article and I have pointed out; the chance to find "good" loot is astronomical. Allow me to quote from another forum:Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
"the problem with D3 is instead of playing like a slot machine (win a little bit every time you play, every once in a while hit the jackpot) it plays like the lottery (almost impossible to win anything). D2 played like a slot machine. you got some upgrades every time you played, even if they were minor, and every so often you hit the jackpot with a perfect drop. that gambling type addiction is what made people play for years on end. D3 is like playing the powerball; yeah it's awesome if you hit it, but it's all or nothing and playing for endless hours without even one piece of decent loot is frustrating as shit. add the fact that the game isn't that much fun to play to begin with (acts are lame, dungeons uninspiring, cheesy story, unkillable champ packs, grouping is a hindrance instead of an asset, etc...) and you have the current mess that is D3." @ http://www.fohguild....tml#post2479943
8/17/2012 2:27:07 PM
You really think, factual or not, that the game has kept it's 10 ish million players entertained and playing still? Obviously it hasn't and the original article hints at that by producing links to the only information/facts we have about this proposed decline. Xfire numbers may have an explanation, but the other links? Really? The issues brought up are spot on and the complaint within the article is shared by at least a few. I still think the game will be fine and lots of improvement to come, this doesn't in any way subtract by the concerns shared/brought to attention by this thread and the original article.Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
8/17/2012 2:01:08 PM
Posted in: Diablo III General DiscussionQuote from PsiStorm
No one is finding good upgrades for them selves, and if they do, in most cases it's better to sell it and buy several other pieces for a larger overall upgrade. C'mon now, anyone reading at all?
Yes, yes, we're reading.
Except that it's exactly the same as in D2, unless you refused to trade.
Except it's not, trading is obviously the most efficient way to get loot in both games. In D2 you just got rewarded more often so it made sense to farm, in D3 you're better off playing the AH than the game. You make more gold pr hour by sniping/playing the AH than you could ever do on average by farming champions/bosses. Which is true for d2 too to some extent, except d2 required you to interact with people in game or on forums. Do people not see the discrepancy in quality of drops between the 2 games?
8/17/2012 1:07:48 PM
We're not exactly farming different "areas" of the game. Instead of just mephisto, it's just act3. Sure most people still do act1 but it's not much different, if you've played enough the "random" areas don't feel random at all and many are very exact or predictable.Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
You HAVE to farm now, no one has a problem with that, or at least they should not. Farming is fine, it's the reward for farming that is the issue. No one is finding good upgrades for them selves, and if they do, in most cases it's better to sell it and buy several other pieces for a larger overall upgrade. C'mon now, anyone reading at all?
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