Well at least someone had respect in our debacle ha. Either way, I am through arguing with you. You arn't learning anything, and you sure arn't proving anything to me.
I for one have learned quite a bit from you Adon. None it particularly flattering or pertinent to the topic.
Right, his theory does separate the community. No person would ever make a public game other then to do 1 specific quest then if they only get to play portions of the features. Is it that hard of a concept that people like to duel? Is it that hard of a concept that people might like to mess around once in a while? Is it that hard of a concept to see that this feature does less to harm the game and stall it then trading or lore stopping does? Or are you guys just that damn ignorant?
About the game being hard at later difficulties, I won't hold my breath on that, this is Diablo buddy. You are a 1 man army god, the game is completely soloable. If you suck then yea im sure you can't run ahead and kill the game, however I don't see that happening. Nothing other then developer tweaked game videos proves that you will actually die if you go off on your own.
I don't know why I bother haha, you guys that post in this section are so oblivious to the mechanics of Diablo and so oblivious to anything outside of PvM.
Is that hard of a concept if you want to PvP then PvP? Is it that hard a concept that you can mess around in PvP without screwing around in PvM? I wouldn't think so, but then one can argue one's way of thinking is the easiest one since it is for that one.
Going to town to sell/buy and lore stopping is an acceptable thing because it's part of the PvM. It offers some downtime between the action and offers a natural stopping point for players in case they look at the time and decide maybe they should do something else. Dueling on the other hand does harm to the game since it can be used as a griefing method with duel spamming and when refused a soapbox for e-peen waggling. It offers nothing to the PvM experience and is only a method by which to insert some pvp into the pvm in a way that could easily be used to separate said community.
You are correct we have nothing to suggest you can't solo in a co-op game on max difficulty other than what the developer's have stated and shown. Though at the same time there's nothing to suggest you can solo other than your own bravado.
For someone who thinks that not allowing dueling separates the community you state a lot of things of how you plan not to interact with said community and then one up yourself by outright being insulting to members of said community. It's strange how you act so oblivious to this hypocrisy and then wonder why it does not garner support.
Well first off, ill join public games only if noone else is on so I can get the added experience, I will not play with randoms however. Ill just pass them up and kill everything in their game.
Secondly, if I was to ever play with someone in a public game and they want to duel me, or I want to test out their build I can't. Because apparently it is correct design to force us to make 3 games to do one action. If you are going to make duels in private games only, then fuck it and give me hostility back. Why not go all the way haha. Your theory is flawed like hell. If you are aiming to separate the community, then may as well add the function I talked about before where you search for pvp open games or not.
So in a game you don't want to play with other random people and you're talking about how it separates the community? Um that's pretty flawed reasoning. Also considering what's been said about difficulty and end game, running ahead to kill everything will just see you get killed, but whatever.
If you want to test a build or duel someone... then just pvp. Why is that a difficult concept? You want to test a build? Go fight in an arena. Want to see different builds? Fight in an arena. Use the PvP function of the game to actually PvP seems pretty straightforward. Separating game modes does not separate the community.
What you talk about seems easily covered by what is being given. So you have to make a choice to either pvp or pvm, that's not a difficult thing for some.
You bring up a couple of interesting points. But I would like to counter your first argument with that pvers get just as much hate if not more hate with the fact that pvers are currently in a good situation right now with WoW and D3 focusing on pve. This goes back to one of my previous points with that PvEers have very very very little reason to complain about pvp. On a side note pvpers have a lot of resentment for pve partially because good pve gear is VERY viable in high-level pvp, where as good pvp gear is crap for high level pve (this is of course in reference to WoW).
Let me counter it with several points then. Both WoW and D3 are mainly PvE games for the most part. If PvE wasn't in a good situation then their classification as such would not be correct or more than likely the situation for both style of games would probably be poor. Such as developers giving both PvE and PvP poor quality. This could be partially seen in WoW's case where patch after patch focused on trying to balance PvP at the cost of the PvE experience while not always helping the PvP either.
As for the gear thing that's suggesting resentment on the part of the PvPr not the PvEr, which is also undue as the PvEr is no the developer that makes the gear. Part of the reason is that the gear might not reverse is in part that PvP is focused on killing other players while PvE is focused on killing everything. It's part of the reason why Diablo is doing the separation of PvE and PvP abilities (with the diff. cooldowns, etc.). Something you use in a massive battle with a dungeon boss that can prove long and grueling, whos abilities outweigh any single player kinda would have to be good enough to face other players. On the other hand the reverse something used to fight people of equal level and skill with abilites equivalent to your own wouldn't be viable in the fight.
Your second statement gave me something to think about, but I stand by my view that those statements, as mild as they may seem, are just as infuriating as direct-hateful statements. Look, as I have said, the pvers already have Blizz focusing on pve. Why should they cry Bloody-murder? PvPers know this and I don't want to sound emo or anything (I just want to make a point) but sometimes negligence is far more damaging than negative effects.
I have to give you that, different statements can set people off. Though I will say that there is a difference in perception here, where there isn't a good response to someone that believes they've been wronged. Passion doesn't always follow a logical course after all. So my only advice is take a few breaths and consider their perspective. Then of course realize that isn't fully possible as any rational will often still be painted by your own ideals. Like they say things happen three ways. The way you see it, the way the other person sees it, and the way it actually happened.
Also Blizz will be taking time to focus solely on PvP. PvE is not crying murder about that, the only thing they've offered resistance to is people complaining or suggesting ideas that are either counter productive (ex. bring back hostility) or would likely deeply impact the core game of PvE (ex. e-sport). So um as for negligence, sorry that a secondary feature in the game doesn't warrant a primary focus? Sorry that the manufacturers decided instead of half ass hostility they are giving PvP an actual system? That what they had shown wasn't enough or fitting for the fans? PvP is right they are definitely ignoring... no wait that actually sounds a lot like the developers are giving some of that loving. Damn. Oh and there are PvErs actually interested in it to the point of playing in it, which could create a more vitalized and varied playing experience for all and make it more part of the community environment dragging it out of niche status in a game where it's oft considered its own thing? Well that certainly doesn't sound like negligence to me that sounds like they had some tough decisions to make and while they could have repeated past mistakes they decided to try and take a few apologetic steps forward instead.
Spoken like a true socialist politician xD I agree with you. Nobody has to like your opinion either >:]
A politician how dare you! ;P
Nope the joy of diversity and free will is that you can inherently hold your own opinion. Can people try to change your mind certainly as many of the PvE have tried to do. Either seeking to explain why an idea is ill-conceived or more harmful than beneficial or actually proposing an actual compromise fulfilling that "Can't we all just get along?" idea that after so many post many are arriving at.
It's funny really. You say you appreciate pvp, yet pvp should not get more love. I say pvp should get more love, but I realllllllllly do not plan to take d3 to a competitive level, I simply don't have the time to compete in an RPG anymore where items are a huge chunk of your power.
Liking/loving pvpers and pvp are two different things. A community with several members that insult or bully others doesn't make me want to embrace it as a whole. Nor even if I loved PvP and was a dedicated PvP fan would I be required to embrace and hug all PvPers like friends. Sorry no that doesn't fly. Liking the principles of something does not immediately mean you will enjoy or should like the company of those people that proclaim that they speak for those principles. Much like respect I don't think love is something automatically given to a community.
So to recap I believe pvp is getting love. Should it get more? No, it's not yet received the 'love' that's been promised by developers. If what is given isn't enough then I can see but that's like a child looking at presents under a tree and declaring that it needs at least two more to know daddy loves them.
Now as for pvpers getting more love. That's something to address on an individual basis rather than as a community. If someone addresses a comment with outright insults and leaves not even the slightest bit of constructive criticism then I will admit my failing as a human being that I can't step around them, give them a hug, and say, "It's alright. I love you to."
The title of this thread does not reflect how much attention or features Blizz is giving to Diablo pvp. It was referring to a lot of the hate posts on the pvp aspect of the game which I can't understand and doubt you would be able to justify. So from the whines and hates on pvp that really have no good reason to be there in the first place (yes I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean Westboro Church's ignorance have constructive validity), I would say pvp should get more love. Meaning more appreciation from pve fans.
To which I'll have to say perspective is lacking. I've read a lot of the posts in this forum the vast majority of the whines and hate seem to be coming from the PvP side of things actually. Comments about people being butthurt, nut huggers, and carebears, of being scared, or that this group is the sole cause of the other group's problems, etc. Those have been things that people proudly stating they're pvp have thrown at more pve types that have questioned or discussed the validity of the PvP statements. In truth many of the so called pve have stated looking forward to the pvp content. They've shown support for the current design Blizzard has proposed or even agreed with some of the extra ideas like clans, etc. that PvP has brought up.
The only statement that has come up on the PvE side in general that might not be friendly is "Well if you don't like the game then don't play it?" This isn't meant in a mean spirited nature it is just a fact. If you aren't going to have fun no one is forcing you to play. That doesn't mean the game is flawed or that there is someone to blame for this.
I appreciate pvp in a game, even one like Diablo that is more pve focused. As for giving pvpers more love as a whole. No. I can respect your right to your opinion, but I don't have to like or love it.
Actually, one of the key words in the statement PvP needs more love is MORE. It is a fact that PvP gets some love, but many fans want it to get more.
They are getting love, quantifying it as not enough implies you are currently aware how how much love those fans are getting. Till it comes out it is mere speculation that it won't be enough.
I have never stated that this game has to be a PvP to survive
That was more off to the original post of this thread than your personal stance.
I can say now that while you talk about polls and researches you are probably not an economist, since you believe that any (I will be surprised if there is even one) research from the past decade will support the thesis that PvE game will earn more money (which I believe is the primary target of Blizzard) than a PvP game. The people and the market changed drastically from what they were 10 years ago. Why do you think WOW became what it is now, because of the amazing PvE (which was the focus at the launch) or because of its PvP?
You are correct I'm not an economist. Though frankly I doubt you're one either. Since a game's success is based upon more than its genre or style of play. There are multiple factors and strangely that would be something an economist would understand.
WoW is not a winning formula because of PvP or PvE. It's a combination as well as Blizzard trying to innovate and keep their fans while keeping it open enough for new ones. If we can agree on that then maybe we're somewhere on the same page after all. If you claim that WoW is kept solely or largely alive on the PvP factor then I'm sorry I can't agree with you.
OK this is from me. I know that the PvE is end will be really important part of the game, but I do not understand why PvP and PvE cannot coexist together, I do not believe that once they have the basis small balancing patches will take so much time and resourses
Frankly I haven't said they can't coexist in some form. The thing that rankles me is statements that what will be done currently isn't nearly enough without even trying it. Is it sad that it's coming out in a patch yes, but then their reason was that it wasn't good enough to them. Apparently not wanting to put out a rush/broken job in favor of a delay to make something fitting of putting your name behind isn't appreciated or considered loving enough.
I do not understand why do you care whether Diablo will be an e-sport or not, nobody cares if you are not competitive and you just want to kill stupid PCs every time you play Diablo 3, but you should not impose this to other people, not all the people are like you (thank's God). Tell me please, I am interested, what will you lose from Diablo being an e-sport??
And yeah, I have never said that Diablo 1 and 2's focus was PvP (never ever) so please do not put words in my mouth.
The reason many have stated they'd rather see no D3 e-sport has been stated throughout the multiple threads, but to rehash it. Making it such would change the focus from PvE to PvP. This would shift resources and create longer development times for the PvE side of things. As the focus of the game has always been PvE there seems little reason for such a change. The fact Blizzard has stated something like this as their stance does sort of validate the argument.
Now as for putting words in your mouth, he didn't. You asked why everyone tells people what D3 is or isn't. The reason is because they are certain things. Are we telling you that you can't focus on some minor aspect of the game? Nope. If you like PvP good for you, but you'll have to excuse us if we don't see why a game series that's primary focus has been the PvM/E, which you yourself seem to agree with should shift to more focus on PvP.
Now am I saying there was no PvP in D1 or D2, nope I'm not. There obviously was and some people liked it for their own specific reasons. The main focus on the game was PvE though, the back of the box did not tote going in and killing other players, it was about the storyline and facing off with the minions of hell.
As for Blizzard taking the community into account? Why is it that people don't think they have? Do they not do polls and market research all of a sudden? Apparently some believe that they must exist in some sort of sub-dimension cut off from our own. Or the sad fact is that despite what some may think they did listen and the community that was looking forward to D3 was more interested in the PvE than the PvP. They kept the focus PvE, but they haven't curb stomped PvPers. They will be working to give a nice fun casual PvP experience as well, with a lot less of the abuse that things like Hostility offered.
So what's the argument?
PvP needs more love? It's getting love.
The Pvp is not what you as a PvPer wanted? Sorry but just like you are quick to point out not everyone is you. Though I don't see a point in thanking God, that just seems petty and rude.
This game has to be a PvP/e-sport to survive/be viable? Once again that's more opinion than anything. If Diablo was at its heart a PvP game with a tacked on storyline mode I could understand, but it just isn't. Strangely Blizzard has chosen that other viable option for game survival, making it more interesting and appealing to the casual player.
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I for one have learned quite a bit from you Adon. None it particularly flattering or pertinent to the topic.
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Is that hard of a concept if you want to PvP then PvP? Is it that hard a concept that you can mess around in PvP without screwing around in PvM? I wouldn't think so, but then one can argue one's way of thinking is the easiest one since it is for that one.
Going to town to sell/buy and lore stopping is an acceptable thing because it's part of the PvM. It offers some downtime between the action and offers a natural stopping point for players in case they look at the time and decide maybe they should do something else. Dueling on the other hand does harm to the game since it can be used as a griefing method with duel spamming and when refused a soapbox for e-peen waggling. It offers nothing to the PvM experience and is only a method by which to insert some pvp into the pvm in a way that could easily be used to separate said community.
You are correct we have nothing to suggest you can't solo in a co-op game on max difficulty other than what the developer's have stated and shown. Though at the same time there's nothing to suggest you can solo other than your own bravado.
For someone who thinks that not allowing dueling separates the community you state a lot of things of how you plan not to interact with said community and then one up yourself by outright being insulting to members of said community. It's strange how you act so oblivious to this hypocrisy and then wonder why it does not garner support.
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So in a game you don't want to play with other random people and you're talking about how it separates the community? Um that's pretty flawed reasoning. Also considering what's been said about difficulty and end game, running ahead to kill everything will just see you get killed, but whatever.
If you want to test a build or duel someone... then just pvp. Why is that a difficult concept? You want to test a build? Go fight in an arena. Want to see different builds? Fight in an arena. Use the PvP function of the game to actually PvP seems pretty straightforward. Separating game modes does not separate the community.
What you talk about seems easily covered by what is being given. So you have to make a choice to either pvp or pvm, that's not a difficult thing for some.
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Let me counter it with several points then. Both WoW and D3 are mainly PvE games for the most part. If PvE wasn't in a good situation then their classification as such would not be correct or more than likely the situation for both style of games would probably be poor. Such as developers giving both PvE and PvP poor quality. This could be partially seen in WoW's case where patch after patch focused on trying to balance PvP at the cost of the PvE experience while not always helping the PvP either.
As for the gear thing that's suggesting resentment on the part of the PvPr not the PvEr, which is also undue as the PvEr is no the developer that makes the gear. Part of the reason is that the gear might not reverse is in part that PvP is focused on killing other players while PvE is focused on killing everything. It's part of the reason why Diablo is doing the separation of PvE and PvP abilities (with the diff. cooldowns, etc.). Something you use in a massive battle with a dungeon boss that can prove long and grueling, whos abilities outweigh any single player kinda would have to be good enough to face other players. On the other hand the reverse something used to fight people of equal level and skill with abilites equivalent to your own wouldn't be viable in the fight.
I have to give you that, different statements can set people off. Though I will say that there is a difference in perception here, where there isn't a good response to someone that believes they've been wronged. Passion doesn't always follow a logical course after all. So my only advice is take a few breaths and consider their perspective. Then of course realize that isn't fully possible as any rational will often still be painted by your own ideals. Like they say things happen three ways. The way you see it, the way the other person sees it, and the way it actually happened.
Also Blizz will be taking time to focus solely on PvP. PvE is not crying murder about that, the only thing they've offered resistance to is people complaining or suggesting ideas that are either counter productive (ex. bring back hostility) or would likely deeply impact the core game of PvE (ex. e-sport). So um as for negligence, sorry that a secondary feature in the game doesn't warrant a primary focus? Sorry that the manufacturers decided instead of half ass hostility they are giving PvP an actual system? That what they had shown wasn't enough or fitting for the fans? PvP is right they are definitely ignoring... no wait that actually sounds a lot like the developers are giving some of that loving. Damn. Oh and there are PvErs actually interested in it to the point of playing in it, which could create a more vitalized and varied playing experience for all and make it more part of the community environment dragging it out of niche status in a game where it's oft considered its own thing? Well that certainly doesn't sound like negligence to me that sounds like they had some tough decisions to make and while they could have repeated past mistakes they decided to try and take a few apologetic steps forward instead.
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Nope the joy of diversity and free will is that you can inherently hold your own opinion. Can people try to change your mind certainly as many of the PvE have tried to do. Either seeking to explain why an idea is ill-conceived or more harmful than beneficial or actually proposing an actual compromise fulfilling that "Can't we all just get along?" idea that after so many post many are arriving at.
Liking/loving pvpers and pvp are two different things. A community with several members that insult or bully others doesn't make me want to embrace it as a whole. Nor even if I loved PvP and was a dedicated PvP fan would I be required to embrace and hug all PvPers like friends. Sorry no that doesn't fly. Liking the principles of something does not immediately mean you will enjoy or should like the company of those people that proclaim that they speak for those principles. Much like respect I don't think love is something automatically given to a community.
So to recap I believe pvp is getting love. Should it get more? No, it's not yet received the 'love' that's been promised by developers. If what is given isn't enough then I can see but that's like a child looking at presents under a tree and declaring that it needs at least two more to know daddy loves them.
Now as for pvpers getting more love. That's something to address on an individual basis rather than as a community. If someone addresses a comment with outright insults and leaves not even the slightest bit of constructive criticism then I will admit my failing as a human being that I can't step around them, give them a hug, and say, "It's alright. I love you to."
1
To which I'll have to say perspective is lacking. I've read a lot of the posts in this forum the vast majority of the whines and hate seem to be coming from the PvP side of things actually. Comments about people being butthurt, nut huggers, and carebears, of being scared, or that this group is the sole cause of the other group's problems, etc. Those have been things that people proudly stating they're pvp have thrown at more pve types that have questioned or discussed the validity of the PvP statements. In truth many of the so called pve have stated looking forward to the pvp content. They've shown support for the current design Blizzard has proposed or even agreed with some of the extra ideas like clans, etc. that PvP has brought up.
The only statement that has come up on the PvE side in general that might not be friendly is "Well if you don't like the game then don't play it?" This isn't meant in a mean spirited nature it is just a fact. If you aren't going to have fun no one is forcing you to play. That doesn't mean the game is flawed or that there is someone to blame for this.
I appreciate pvp in a game, even one like Diablo that is more pve focused. As for giving pvpers more love as a whole. No. I can respect your right to your opinion, but I don't have to like or love it.
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That was more off to the original post of this thread than your personal stance.
You are correct I'm not an economist. Though frankly I doubt you're one either. Since a game's success is based upon more than its genre or style of play. There are multiple factors and strangely that would be something an economist would understand.
WoW is not a winning formula because of PvP or PvE. It's a combination as well as Blizzard trying to innovate and keep their fans while keeping it open enough for new ones. If we can agree on that then maybe we're somewhere on the same page after all. If you claim that WoW is kept solely or largely alive on the PvP factor then I'm sorry I can't agree with you.
Frankly I haven't said they can't coexist in some form. The thing that rankles me is statements that what will be done currently isn't nearly enough without even trying it. Is it sad that it's coming out in a patch yes, but then their reason was that it wasn't good enough to them. Apparently not wanting to put out a rush/broken job in favor of a delay to make something fitting of putting your name behind isn't appreciated or considered loving enough.
0
The reason many have stated they'd rather see no D3 e-sport has been stated throughout the multiple threads, but to rehash it. Making it such would change the focus from PvE to PvP. This would shift resources and create longer development times for the PvE side of things. As the focus of the game has always been PvE there seems little reason for such a change. The fact Blizzard has stated something like this as their stance does sort of validate the argument.
Now as for putting words in your mouth, he didn't. You asked why everyone tells people what D3 is or isn't. The reason is because they are certain things. Are we telling you that you can't focus on some minor aspect of the game? Nope. If you like PvP good for you, but you'll have to excuse us if we don't see why a game series that's primary focus has been the PvM/E, which you yourself seem to agree with should shift to more focus on PvP.
Now am I saying there was no PvP in D1 or D2, nope I'm not. There obviously was and some people liked it for their own specific reasons. The main focus on the game was PvE though, the back of the box did not tote going in and killing other players, it was about the storyline and facing off with the minions of hell.
As for Blizzard taking the community into account? Why is it that people don't think they have? Do they not do polls and market research all of a sudden? Apparently some believe that they must exist in some sort of sub-dimension cut off from our own. Or the sad fact is that despite what some may think they did listen and the community that was looking forward to D3 was more interested in the PvE than the PvP. They kept the focus PvE, but they haven't curb stomped PvPers. They will be working to give a nice fun casual PvP experience as well, with a lot less of the abuse that things like Hostility offered.
So what's the argument?
PvP needs more love? It's getting love.
The Pvp is not what you as a PvPer wanted? Sorry but just like you are quick to point out not everyone is you. Though I don't see a point in thanking God, that just seems petty and rude.
This game has to be a PvP/e-sport to survive/be viable? Once again that's more opinion than anything. If Diablo was at its heart a PvP game with a tacked on storyline mode I could understand, but it just isn't. Strangely Blizzard has chosen that other viable option for game survival, making it more interesting and appealing to the casual player.