Quote from Benegesserit
Quote from Tanakeah
Heck, I went back and checked the MANUAL that I got in the battlechest and checked the multiplayer section in the Table of Contents and read it. IT CLEARLY STATES the differences of Single Player and Battlenet, and the fact that it HAS the Multiplayer part and is clearly shown IN THE MANUAL as well as on the game options screen...HOW was this confusing?
lol do you realize how many people don't RTFM
I'm well aware of that, but we're also talking about a playerbase that has been around for a while, back in the day when people DID read manuals, not this generation. Even without reading the manual, it's not confusing at all to figure out given what is presented in the game itself.
Can't wait to see the story unfold that's for sure.
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Oh definitely and I can see why it's the last passive you unlock. It will still add a nice damage punch to abilities like Strafe, Rapid Fire, and even the Sentry turret.
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Ahhhh, but see...that's what I said. It's NOT just about damage because you cannot put a true quantifiable number on 'helping'. What if I am playing a Monk and my build is designed to be more of a 'tank' and 'mantra' build where I am switching buffs around for the group as needed and holding mobs at bay from those who are more focusing on damage? What if I am a Demon Hunter using traps for slowing, sentries for life/damage reduction, or standing back firing Elemental Arrow runed for cold damage and its slowing effect and have Marked for Death runed so it creates large areas that increase damage from all sources against monsters? Or what if I am the Witch Doctor spawning my minions who are specialized as tanks to help take the heat off melee who are taking a pounding and give them a chance to retreat and heal up where otherwise they would've died? Is that not helping keeping the group alive and contributing?
It's not just DPS that matters and you fell into the whole 'WoW DPS Syndrome' that I had mentioned before. This is a cooperative game that relies upon cooperative play and if my build is designed not around damage but to be a powerful group buffer while still being to do some damage (though obviously not as much as a pure DPSer), then how is that bad? And if that build allows me to sacrifice some DPS stats and get some magic find out of it, but I am doing my part in helping out with the group...how is that bad? Again, it's not black and white.
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And considering that I worked for the MF stats then I should be able to reap the rewards of my work regardless if I am soling or in a group. Why should I involuntarily be penalized for doing that and no one else is really being penalized by the system? If we really wanted to play fair and go with the whole sharing thing...then as an example:
1. Myself in my MF/GF gear totals around 2,000 average DPS
2. Group Member 2 in his/her gear does 2,750 average DPS with no MF/GF
3. Group Member 3 in his/her gear does 2,250 average DPS with no MF/GF
4. Group member 4 in his her gear does 3,000 average DPS with no MF/GF
So our total DPS is about 10,000 DPS. If all is fair with sharing, then if those without MF/GF are allowed to take from my MF/GF and get averaged amongst all of us, then there will be no problem with DPS being averaged as well, correct? Which means that everyone will average out to 2,500 DPS, and that is fine, yes? DPS wasn't diminished and we all still have the same average killing power so kill time just by DPS alone shouldn't be affected, yes? But do you think the people who have 2,750 and 3,000 DPS are going to like it when their damage numbers are smaller and are forced to be that way because of group sharing? ...I'm thinking they probably won't for the same reason I and others wouldn't want to see our MF numbers slashed without being able to do anything about them and still want the social aspects
Basically what I am getting at is the group is benefiting from me being there as being there as an extra body to help out with monsters, skills and abilities to help either DPS them down, or group benefiting spells that improve their DPS/survivability, or in ways that don't boil down to just numbers. Again, it's not black and white and that's another issue with this sort of argument is that people say it's either you're sharing or you're not. Just because the group isn't benefiting from my MF doesn't mean I'm not helping, nor would that be the case for others either who run into similar situations.
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The first part of your post makes so little sense to me...I mean...basically what you're saying is that you are GLAD that Blizzard is discouraging people from wanting to group with others and not play the way they want to? Am I reading this right, because at the heart of it, that is exactly what you're saying and that just sounds so...wrong. As far as stacking all MF/GF...what if all of my MF/GF that I am stacking is on gear with affixes and sockets that are being used for offensive and defensive purposes? You are correct in saying I have no data, but I can make some pretty fair assumptions that:
1. Defensive stats will have a hard cap or heavy diminishing returns after a point, and you better believe Blizzard will not let you become 100% immune to physical or all magical damage. When that point is reached, any extra is either completely wasted, or will provide such a minimal gain that it is better off not being used and other affixes are desired.
2. Again, you are making a very bad assumption that by stacking a ton of MF you will die easier or kill slower. Now, I will say that you will kill slower, but again, surviving is another matter as already addressed above. HOWEVER, you may not need to sacrifice an affix slot in every single piece of gear, and this isn't an unfair assumption on my part either...Magic Find will have steep diminishing returns. Don't forget also that you have far more pieces of gear to use on your character than in the past so it will be much easier to get to the 'sweet spot' (probably around 400-500% MF), and sockets will be helping you with that as well. No...in the end you won't be sacrificing that much damage and survivability if you play smart and get gear for it, and that's what people don't seem to understand.
It's like a huge "WoW DPS Syndrome" has taken hold of people and if you're not doing 100% of your DPS 100% of the time, if you aren't 100% optimal, if you are even 5% or so less than your potential DPS you are scrub/bottom feeder/leecher/whatever. This is Diablo we're talking about here and never has the series been so unforgivably hard that if you stacked some MF/GF while balancing your stats your group would fail. And also, do not be snide or condescending with me in future posts, please. I have been very civil in this discussion and I don't need you telling me what I will and will not do in terms of my attitude while I am playing. Farming should not just be for soloing or with friends, nor should I feel like I can't wear my hard-earned gear in a group because I have to worry about my MF/GF being auto-leeched by others due to game mechanics beyond my control.
And if I may ask one question...let's say for example I join a group in my balanced, thought out MF/GF gear that also offers me strong DPS and good survivability, and let's say that I am the most geared person there. This is not an uncommon occurrence and will more than likely happen often enough given how Diablo III's grouping system is working right now. Now, let's say that no one else has any MF/GF gear and it's an Inferno game where people are trying to gear up or complete some quests in later acts that I am also trying to complete. In essence they are 'pure DPSers' and I am the MF/GF 'leech' (as would be rudely called by some)...yet who in this case is the real leech? I have better gear, and am doing better damage than they are, and maybe in some cases I am also surviving better than some of them are, which again could very well happen.
See what I mean? It's not all black and white as some are trying to make it out to be because truly...who is really leeching? It most certainly isn't me in this case...I am the one being leeched off of and because of Blizzard's sharing of MF/GF the other party members are leeching off of my hard-earned stats and the only way for me to not have that happen is to solo, or play with friends where I will not mind it. Again, it's not just the fact of leeching...it's the fact that this system is DISCOURAGING pick-up-groups (or whatever else you wish to call them) and more social interaction, which is what Blizzard has been saying they want to promote. Instead of giving the community tools to help deal with the problem of leechers of whatever kind might fit that word (truly), they are trying to solve the problem with a heavy-handed system that will do more harm than good.
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But that isn't necessarily true, nor can you accurately quantify just what you will be sacrificing (if much at all) when it comes to killing power and survivability. And you cannot tell me or say that a MFer will be a leecher in every single scenario because there are cases where MFers are not leechers and you know that as well as I do. That is not to say you won't be sacrificing anything as you will be, however, the sacrifices you make MAY NOT be that noticeable in the end, especially with solid gear, sockets, and diminishing returns that will more than likely be on defensive stats like there was in Diablo II.
And I have seen more than a few people wording their posts on other forums about how MFers will be 'useless' because 'they are sacrificing X% of DPS and survivability' when no one actually knows any real quantitative values and no one really knows just how hard/not as hard as they thought Hell and Inferno Modes are going to be. The topics are also existing as I and others have stated...we are concerned that those of us who want to stack MF/GF are being penalized by this 'averaging' because we will supposedly be 'leechers', and yet our hard-earned MF/GF will be leeched from us without any say. This is discouraging us from wanting to party in public groups, which is what Blizzard wants to promote, and in this case they are deterring us and possibly others when they find out how MF/GF 'sharing' works and then they do not wish to participate because of it.
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Because the topics are not trivial and are valid concerns for people...do not write them off as such, please. In an effort to try and cut down on leeching, Blizzard has done the complete opposite by putting in a system that takes away player control and unfairly penalizes players under the pretense that it is good for them. I do commend Blizzard for trying but really...leechers are things that should be dealt with by the community itself and as such Blizzard should be giving the community more tools to deal with such leechers. Not that they will ever go away as they will always be there, but again, this solution is going to end up doing more harm than good and that's what people like myself are concerned about.
And please stop saying that people who have higher than average MF/GF are useless or 'somehow useless'...they are not. They are only useless if they do not know how to play their characters well and balance their stats. Those that do know and those that take the time and effort will be very valuable assets to a group...that is...if they want to have their hard-earned MF/GF forcibly shared and the only way they can enjoy it is by grouping with other MF/Gfers in their range, or by soloing.
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Except in this case what they're doing is not catering to the needs of many, and instead what they're doing is unfairly penalizing those who take the time to play smart. If Hell and Inferno mode are anywhere near as hard as Blizzard is hyping them up to be, then natural difficulty progression and the consequences of not progressing due to dying because of a combination of poor play and gear choice will do its job to teach people that stacking MF and forgoing a balanced mix of stats is not a good idea. Instead of the game being a rewarding experience for those smart players who take even a bit of time to get their gear in order and have some extra Magic Find so they can get extra goodies while in a group and still contribute, they are having that taken away from them and not allowed to have much of a say in it.
And by that I mean that if they want to group with others outside of friend/guild/whatever circles they have, they will feel gimped and wonder why their MF is being leeched off of, because it is. In fact, it's actually working against Blizzard's idea that they want Diablo III to be a more social game, having people join random groups, go kill monsters, etc, etc. What it will do is make people who have worked for their gear with MF on it shy away from groups and just make solo games, or if they do want to group, then they'll try to find others with similar amounts of MF gear and party only with them because then they won't feel leeched off of. Of course, with the poor chat system right now, that's not going to be easy, so here's hoping Blizzard adds to that, but that's another issue. Point is, is that this change isn't for the better or for the many...it's going to do more harm than good in the long run.
Actually, that is not the case, and if it was, then MF as a stat would be as useless as Light Radius was in Diablo II and no one would want it. They have said that Inferno Mode is solo-able and I agree that you will not be able to sacrifice all stats for MF. HOWEVER, and this is the key point in what you said, you said ALL STATS, which is completely different than what a smart MFer will do, or even someone who just stops and thinks about gear choices for a moment. Hell and Inferno Mode gear is looking to have around 5-6 stats (possibly more for sets/uniques) and let's not forget SOCKETS, too. Of those 5-6 stats you will only need 1 stat to be Magic Find, and this doesn't necessarily have to be on EVERY PIECE OF GEAR either, which means you have A LOT of other slots to use for your offensive and defensive stats. Certainly, if you wear a piece of gear with just MF on it you will take a hit, but when you get a more powerful piece that has all of those extra properties on it...suddenly that one MF stat isn't looking so 'gimpy' now is it?
And going through Hell and Inferno...the smart thing to do is to NOT focus on MF the first time through, and to keep damage and survivability at the forefront and always a priority. BUT, as you progress and improve your gear you will be able to replace pieces with those that have MF and you'll discover that you're not gimping yourself, you'll survive just fine, and while you may not kill at the same speed, you will still kill efficiently with the added bonus that you're now having more chances at better gear. ...These are the types of players, and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people on these forums are smart players...these are the players that are going to get hurt the most by this change because their hard work will be leeched by those who don't put forth the same effort that they have, and instead of being encouraged by Blizzard to socialize with their fellow community members, they will not because they (rightfully so) do not want to be leeched off of.
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That isn't necessarily true as he could die, but you could have killed the monsters after his death and thus not die. Also, don't assume that all MF characters will be squishy/gimped/useless...I see this assumption a lot and even worse on the official Diablo III forums, and it's really not the case. Now, that isn't to say that there will be people who will gear poorly and use underpowered gear with only MF and maybe one other stat on it, but that's not what we should be looking at here. Those people I would agree are leechers, especially if they are the one who stand back and do very little to contribute to the group effort. No, what we should be looking at is how this affects more competent, smarter players that take a little time and effort to gear their characters well with the inclusion of Magic Find.
Where this will matter most will most certainly be at the end of Hell Mode and Inferno Mode since that is where the long-term gear will be found. Normal and Nightmare will not matter much in the grand scheme of things and people will very likely be able to get by with what they can craft from the blacksmith, getting off one of the AHs, and finding out in the wild, and it makes sense. These are the easier modes of the game and while Nightmare will be a jump in difficulty, it shouldn't be THAT hard. Magic Find won't be used that much in those difficulties and instead it will be a bigger focus on what I have stated before, and THAT is where this averaging change will have the most effect on people, and one that I think will not be that good overall. If anything, this averaging is going to discourage people from wanting to join public games, and it's going to widen the rift between those who dislike Magic Find (in some cases, those who are rather ignorant and believe that it's worthless and horrendously stat-gimping, when it isn't) and those who understand how to balance it.
This change doesn't actually address the problem of 'leechers' and instead all it is doing is unnecessarily penalizing responsible players that worked on their gear to achieve a solid balance of DPS, survivability, and Magic Find. How is it fair to someone who has worked hard to get their MF set going strong (let's say about 400% MF) and then when they want to go group with others outside of their friends or possibly out-of-game-giuld that their MF stat is forcibly taken away from them and split amongst other party members? And let's not jump to conclusions and say that it is fair because their DPS is weaker, because it is not out of the realm of possibility that a MFer could have built up some rather strong gear that outclasses a 'pure DPSer' (no MF at all) setup just on stats alone, and never mind the fact that class skills and player skill will also play a heavy role in terms of damage, too. In that case, the MFer joining a supposed group of 'pure DPS players' (no MF on any of their gear) is the one who truthfully has the best DPS of the bunch.
So, not only is the MFer doing more DPS than the others, he/she is also losing 300% MF and being forced to give it to the other group members and they are not giving anything in return...in terms of raw DPS. So, who is truly 'leeching' in this regard? Again, I am well aware that there are other things involved with group play other than DPS, but DPS is something that has been the hot topic about this, especially with people citing Blizzard talking about how hard Inferno is going to supposedly be and that if you aren't performing at maximum output then you are a leecher and deadweight to the group. In fact, it sounds a lot like a bit of a World of Warcraft DPS mentality, and I should know because I've played WoW for 5 years and I know how important DPS is, especially on tight enrage timer fights like ye olde Patchwerk back in Classic, Brutallis in TBC, etc, etc. But...and I know it's overused...Diablo III IS NOT WOW AND DPS ISN'T THE BE-ALL, END-ALL OF EVERYTHING, and as such you shouldn't be using it to judge MFers by.
...I guess what I am trying to say after rambling on so much is that the averaging of Magic Find in groups isn't going to solve the problem Blizzard was trying to fix by going that route. If anything, it will create new problems while the old one will still exist, and if they wanted to fix it, they needed to give the community better tools to help itself with policing and governing itself, and most certainly give the chat channels more options and make them more robust in the process. That, and that MFers should not be so quickly categorized as 'leechers' and at the same time they shouldn't be unfairly punished by being forced to split a stat up between a group that they worked hard to get and should be able to reap the full benefit of it whether in solo play or group play.
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Hehehehe, how true. You KNOW there are going to be delays like there have been with every other patch before this one. Hopefully there are some decent updates to the Witch Doctor, and hoping one of them is that both the male and female don't 'shriek' so much when using certain attacks. Ugh...makes me reach for the mute button. ><
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