From the summaries of the 2 books that I posted, it says that the author interviews professionals and experts in scientific fields for the most up to date evidence that is out there. If you're asking us to prove that there is a god, the "The Case for a Creator" book is something that will meet that need. Check it out before you dismiss it. (Dr. Dino has some compelling evidence on his site as well)
(Again, this is why I tend not to debate on the internet, as people tend to want to debate more than seek truth - no offense intended, just an observation. If all you guys want to do is debate, have at it )
I didn't ask you for a summary. I asked you why they were a greater authority than the scientists who don't make any such claims. If you think that's not seeking truth, then you have a diffirent definition of truth than I do. I don't simply roll over and take my truth like a suppository. That would be faith, not truth.
I meant based on the summaries I pasted - the scientists are peers with differing points of view on the same evidence. They have the same credentials as those who don't make such claims - they just have a different outcome based on the evidence.
The reason why many textbooks make bad proof for the existence of a god, is because the author's are too close-minded to admit it could be a possibility in the first place. So all of their research is already bent towards that worldview. Granted, you could just as easily say I'm close minded for making everything fit my worldview... but when one steps back and examines the evidence we do have, it takes a LOT more faith to believe there is no creator and the universe was all random chance... The Biblical explanation for everything makes a lot more sense to me logically and scientifically. Especially the creation vs evolution debate. (The chicken was before the egg )
What a load of bullshit. You think that everyone who ever took enough science classes to become a professor necessarily rejects any concept of god? On the contrary, I know many professors and scientists who would LOVE to find evidence for a loving god. They, like me, have not seen it. That's why they are not in support of your position. They aren't closed minded at all. In-fact they are the most open-minded people I know.
I didn't say every science professor. I'm just saying it wouldn't be the first time someone falsified information in textbooks.
If people haven't found evidence of a loving god, that could just means the Christians that they run into aren't being good ambassadors of Christ. I know I mess up a lot still and probably give a bad impression sometimes... Like that cheesy bumper sticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. (Even though everyone is forgiven, people just haven't let go of their burdens!)
In response to a god and natural disasters: you are making the assumption that this god caused and wanted those disasters to happen. When you read the Bible, you see that God gave mankind a free will, choice and dominion over this earth that He created. When Adam sinned (yes Adam - the Bible makes it clear in Romans 5 that it was the sin of Adam that caused the fall of mankind, not Eve) it caused a spiritual shockwave of death and disruption throughout the earth. Thorns, death and disease came into being through sin - it was never God's will for there to be death and destruction. This doesn't mean He lost control - this just means He wanted us to be able to choose Him or not. He is in control overall, and you can see the redemption story throughout history. We are told in Daniel and Revelation that the end will culminate with a worldwide economic collapse, the rise of a one world government and currency, and ultimately the 2nd return of Jesus. I don't know if this will happen in our lifetime or not, but it certainly seems close...
Mankind's free-will causes natural disasters? You should definitely research geology and meteorology. And if your god wanted everyone to choose him, i'm wondering why there are still remote tribes on several continents and islands who have never heard of him? I'm not touching that lunacy about endtimes.
No, that's not what I said. I said that man's free will caused sin to enter the world, which then set things in motion. I do believe there are natural disasters - hence why they're called natural. I'm just saying that they were never desired by God. (In light of that though - I do believe in a spiritual realm which can cause things to happen in the physical realm using physical means that can't be proven with only science)
To show that God doesn't want disease and sickness, look at the life of Jesus and all of the healing miracles he performed. Jesus was the physical embodiment of God and His will on Earth. If God wanted people to be sick, then Jesus would have been acting in direct opposition to that goal. It even continued as the disciples and others healed after Jesus rose to heaven! If you want something more recent, look at any medical miracle that defies science. There are plenty of examples of those out there.
How about Job? Oh any medical miracle? Can you find me one of those that's been empirically proven to be miraculous? And by that I mean, divine in origin, not miraculous in the meaning that people would use (ie. not explicable or just coincidental).
Job was healed if you finish the book. And the origin of those diseases? The devil, not God. And still - Jesus healed everyone that came to Him! Again though, you want me to prove the spiritual with the physical; sadly it can't happen in the way you're expecting it to.
In response to being in awe of the astronomical things: I choose to be in awe of the Creator when observing the creation. You choose to be in awe of the creation and deny the existence of the Creator. Either way, there's some pretty amazing stuff out there, check out Louie Giglio's sermon talking about the vastness of the universe. Very cool stuff. All I can do is give you the information though, it's your choice to check it out.
Yeah, too bad we don't know if there is a creator or not or that the universe even necessarily needs one. We CERTAINLY do not have evidence for this specific christian god concept. Just so we're clear: I'm in awe of the universe and want to know more about it. You are in awe of a man-made idea that belittles that universe and refuse to know more about it. Who is not seeking truth?
As always, the debate stems from two different worldviews which at it's core is the validity and source of the Bible. I believe that the Bible was written by numerous authors inspired by God. So no, it is not a man-made idea that I believe in - it's God-made. The more I study the Bible, the more everything makes sense. And I don't refuse to know more about the universe - as I said I'm amazed the more we find out about it because of how awesome it all is!
I highly encourage you again to check out any of those links I have posted, especially the Louie Giglio youtube series.
On the note of the spirit I don't have much to say on the matter. Because it's not so clear of an arguable topic and rather than make up ideas I'll leave it be.
I'm glad you realize that it's a made up idea to explain something we just don't understand in perfect detail.
From my understanding based on the Bible: we are all made up of body, soul, and spirit. Our body is our physical shell tied to this earth, our soul is 'us' (mind, will, emotions), and our spirit is our eternal being (once created).
For those that are searching about the meaning of life, God, etc: here are 2 good books to get started. (besides the Bible)
I'm just curious as to why those books (including the bible) are a better source of knowledge about life and the universe than say, a biology, chemistry, or physics book. Hell, there are a lot of fiction and creative non-fiction novels that would qualify too. Any book making truth claims about the universe, even in the context of general meaning, should be put to the same criticism as their scientific counterparts.
edit: Oh - and Christians should not be afraid or shy away from science in any branch. God created it to show his magnificence! The more we discover about how complex everything is, the more we should be in awe. I personally love astronomy in particular.
Glad to hear you say that, but if there were a God that created the universe to show off then he also shows off by pestilence, vulcanism, and other natural disasters. If I knew such a god to exist, I would only be in awe of just how much of an asshole it was. I love astronomy too, but It doesn't put me in awe of a mysterious being. It puts me in awe of the astrological things i'm viewing. The universe that many religious people like to derride as incomplete.
From the summaries of the 2 books that I posted, it says that the author interviews professionals and experts in scientific fields for the most up to date evidence that is out there. If you're asking us to prove that there is a god, the "The Case for a Creator" book is something that will meet that need. Check it out before you dismiss it. (Dr. Dino has some compelling evidence on his site as well)
(Again, this is why I tend not to debate on the internet, as people tend to want to debate more than seek truth - no offense intended, just an observation. If all you guys want to do is debate, have at it )
The reason why many textbooks make bad proof for the existence of a god, is because the author's are too close-minded to admit it could be a possibility in the first place. So all of their research is already bent towards that worldview. Granted, you could just as easily say I'm close minded for making everything fit my worldview... but when one steps back and examines the evidence we do have, it takes a LOT more faith to believe there is no creator and the universe was all random chance... The Biblical explanation for everything makes a lot more sense to me logically and scientifically. Especially the creation vs evolution debate. (The chicken was before the egg )
In response to a god and natural disasters: you are making the assumption that this god caused and wanted those disasters to happen. When you read the Bible, you see that God gave mankind a free will, choice and dominion over this earth that He created. When Adam sinned (yes Adam - the Bible makes it clear in Romans 5 that it was the sin of Adam that caused the fall of mankind, not Eve) it caused a spiritual shockwave of death and disruption throughout the earth. Thorns, death and disease came into being through sin - it was never God's will for there to be death and destruction. This doesn't mean He lost control - this just means He wanted us to be able to choose Him or not. He is in control overall, and you can see the redemption story throughout history. We are told in Daniel and Revelation that the end will culminate with a worldwide economic collapse, the rise of a one world government and currency, and ultimately the 2nd return of Jesus. I don't know if this will happen in our lifetime or not, but it certainly seems close...
To show that God doesn't want disease and sickness, look at the life of Jesus and all of the healing miracles he performed. Jesus was the physical embodiment of God and His will on Earth. If God wanted people to be sick, then Jesus would have been acting in direct opposition to that goal. It even continued as the disciples and others healed after Jesus rose to heaven! If you want something more recent, look at any medical miracle that defies science. There are plenty of examples of those out there.
In response to being in awe of the astronomical things: I choose to be in awe of the Creator when observing the creation. You choose to be in awe of the creation and deny the existence of the Creator. Either way, there's some pretty amazing stuff out there, check out Louie Giglio's sermon talking about the vastness of the universe. Very cool stuff. All I can do is give you the information though, it's your choice to check it out.
A seasoned journalist chases down the biggest story in history--is there credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the son of god?
Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith, Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, cross-examines a dozen experts with doctorates from schools like Cambridge, Princeton, and Brandeis who are recognized authorities in their own fields. Strobel challenges them with questions like: How reliable is the New Testament? Does evidence for Jesus exist outside the Bible? Is there any reason to believe the resurrection was an actual event?
Strobel's tough, point-blank questions make this Gold Medallion-winning book read like a captivating, fast-paced novel. But it's not fiction. It's a riveting quest for the truth about history's most compelling figure. What will your verdict be in The Case for Christ?
Recent findings from the fields of astronomy, cosmology, biology, and biochemistry that provide convincing evidence for God Like many people, Lee Strobel traces his atheism to high school when he was taught that Darwinism explained the origin and development of life. He assumed there was no room for God in a modern, scientific mind. But now Strobel has discovered that 'the emperor of evolution has no clothes!' As in his first two books---both multi-million sellers---The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith, Strobel assumes the role of skeptic in The Case for a Creator and uses a narrative technique to investigate the latest scientific findings concerning creation. What he has found is that there has never been a time in history when the hard evidence of science was more confirmatory of belief in God than it is today. Instead of science and religion being at odds, many scientists are now driven to faith by their very work. 'It is the atheist who has to maintain, by faith, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that the universe did not have a beginning a finite time ago.' The Case for a Creator provides an ironclad apologetic affirming the Christian belief in God as Creator. Yet it is written in an open, accessible style that invites skeptics and seekers to take another look at the evidence for God.
I believe that the God of the Bible is the one true God. I learned a while ago that I don't like to debate people on the internet, as most will believe what they want to believe. (and most on the internet debate because they like to debate, not because they are searching for truth) The best way for me to reach others for Jesus is to build relationships with friends, co-workers, neighbors and family and show them the same non-judgmental love that God has for all mankind. (John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.") For the record: the Crusades were not what Jesus wanted! Read the New Testament and look to His example and the examples of the disciples for how Christians should behave. (The Old Testament is just that: an old covenant that has been ultimately fulfilled through Jesus. The New Testament is the Christian guideline until the end. Love God, and love people. Matthew 22:36-40 "“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” )
I believe that the heavens (and all creation) are crying out that God exists, and He is great. (Psalm 19 - also watch Louie Giglio's sermon on this matter)
Since science stops with the physical realm, by nature it cannot "prove" that God exists. (Since God is a spirit being) We have tons of outside evidence though: all of creation, Jesus, our own conscience, etc.
Not only that, but God works through faith. And faith, by Biblical definition: Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."
So do we "see" God with our physical eyes? No. Do we see evidence that points to a god? I believe, absolutely. The problem is being able to look at the evidence from an unbiased point of view which is extremely difficult especially in this Western world where the demonic spiritual realm has remained cleverly quiet. (read Lee Strobel's Case for a Creator mentioned above for physical evidence)
It's quite amazing, but look at how a human baby is formed and develops in its mother's womb from conception to birth. It's quite the "miracle" to watch and experience. (Having 2 young children myself.) So is that evidence of a Creator? I would say yes. Others would call me ignorant, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but by nature of what I believe to be true, I also have to believe that others are wrong (2 Peter 3:3-5)... And that's fine as long as I do not judge, hate, or act unkind or unloving.
It's funny: if you look at Jesus' life, the people He got angry and upset with the most were His disciples, and the "religious"... (by "religious" I mean those who claimed to follow God but cared more about their appearance or position rather than their relationship with God and loving Him and his fellow man) While he ate dinner with the "sinners" (ie: prostitutes and tax collectors). He showed them the love of God that Christians today are supposed to be showing to the world... (which many would say they are failing at miserably as so many "Christians" are quick to point the finger and judge)
All this to say: I probably won't be debating in here; I just wanted to state my beliefs and some of the "evidence" I have. (read the books mentioned above, view that linked website and watch the video) (I won't turn down an open invitation to talk about Jesus!)
(As with anything you see or hear: it is a good practice to "eat the meat and spit out the bones". I don't necessarily agree with everything Lee Strobel says or what is on the Dr Dino site, but that doesn't negate the fact that there are a lot of interesting facts presented and points to consider.)
Cheers!
(and when is D3 coming out?!!? )
edit: Oh - and Christians should not be afraid or shy away from science in any branch. God created it to show his magnificence! The more we discover about how complex everything is, the more we should be in awe. I personally love astronomy in particular.
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So with the Worldstone destroyed - can Nephalem become stronger than the original Nephalem? Or are they all on the same level?
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For example, who would be more powerful: Rathma, Uldyssian, or a current generation?
Was Uldyssian so powerful only because of Lilith? Or was it something inside of him that she sparked his pre-existing abilities?
It is my understanding that all humans on Sanctuary are Nephalem, and have innate abilities. Is that right?
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I meant based on the summaries I pasted - the scientists are peers with differing points of view on the same evidence. They have the same credentials as those who don't make such claims - they just have a different outcome based on the evidence.
I didn't say every science professor. I'm just saying it wouldn't be the first time someone falsified information in textbooks.
If people haven't found evidence of a loving god, that could just means the Christians that they run into aren't being good ambassadors of Christ. I know I mess up a lot still and probably give a bad impression sometimes... Like that cheesy bumper sticker: Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. (Even though everyone is forgiven, people just haven't let go of their burdens!)
No, that's not what I said. I said that man's free will caused sin to enter the world, which then set things in motion. I do believe there are natural disasters - hence why they're called natural. I'm just saying that they were never desired by God. (In light of that though - I do believe in a spiritual realm which can cause things to happen in the physical realm using physical means that can't be proven with only science)
Job was healed if you finish the book. And the origin of those diseases? The devil, not God. And still - Jesus healed everyone that came to Him! Again though, you want me to prove the spiritual with the physical; sadly it can't happen in the way you're expecting it to.
As always, the debate stems from two different worldviews which at it's core is the validity and source of the Bible. I believe that the Bible was written by numerous authors inspired by God. So no, it is not a man-made idea that I believe in - it's God-made. The more I study the Bible, the more everything makes sense. And I don't refuse to know more about the universe - as I said I'm amazed the more we find out about it because of how awesome it all is!
I highly encourage you again to check out any of those links I have posted, especially the Louie Giglio youtube series.
Again, hope you find what you're looking for!
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From my understanding based on the Bible: we are all made up of body, soul, and spirit. Our body is our physical shell tied to this earth, our soul is 'us' (mind, will, emotions), and our spirit is our eternal being (once created).
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From the summaries of the 2 books that I posted, it says that the author interviews professionals and experts in scientific fields for the most up to date evidence that is out there. If you're asking us to prove that there is a god, the "The Case for a Creator" book is something that will meet that need.
(Again, this is why I tend not to debate on the internet, as people tend to want to debate more than seek truth - no offense intended, just an observation. If all you guys want to do is debate, have at it
The reason why many textbooks make bad proof for the existence of a god, is because the author's are too close-minded to admit it could be a possibility in the first place. So all of their research is already bent towards that worldview. Granted, you could just as easily say I'm close minded for making everything fit my worldview... but when one steps back and examines the evidence we do have, it takes a LOT more faith to believe there is no creator and the universe was all random chance... The Biblical explanation for everything makes a lot more sense to me logically and scientifically. Especially the creation vs evolution debate. (The chicken was before the egg
In response to a god and natural disasters: you are making the assumption that this god caused and wanted those disasters to happen. When you read the Bible, you see that God gave mankind a free will, choice and dominion over this earth that He created. When Adam sinned (yes Adam - the Bible makes it clear in Romans 5 that it was the sin of Adam that caused the fall of mankind, not Eve) it caused a spiritual shockwave of death and disruption throughout the earth. Thorns, death and disease came into being through sin - it was never God's will for there to be death and destruction. This doesn't mean He lost control - this just means He wanted us to be able to choose Him or not. He is in control overall, and you can see the redemption story throughout history. We are told in Daniel and Revelation that the end will culminate with a worldwide economic collapse, the rise of a one world government and currency, and ultimately the 2nd return of Jesus. I don't know if this will happen in our lifetime or not, but it certainly seems close...
To show that God doesn't want disease and sickness, look at the life of Jesus and all of the healing miracles he performed. Jesus was the physical embodiment of God and His will on Earth. If God wanted people to be sick, then Jesus would have been acting in direct opposition to that goal. It even continued as the disciples and others healed after Jesus rose to heaven! If you want something more recent, look at any medical miracle that defies science. There are plenty of examples of those out there.
In response to being in awe of the astronomical things: I choose to be in awe of the Creator when observing the creation. You choose to be in awe of the creation and deny the existence of the Creator.
Cheers!
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The Case for Christ
From Amazon:
The Case for a Creator
From Amazon:
I believe that the God of the Bible is the one true God. I learned a while ago that I don't like to debate people on the internet, as most will believe what they want to believe. (and most on the internet debate because they like to debate, not because they are searching for truth) The best way for me to reach others for Jesus is to build relationships with friends, co-workers, neighbors and family and show them the same non-judgmental love that God has for all mankind. (John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.") For the record: the Crusades were not what Jesus wanted! Read the New Testament and look to His example and the examples of the disciples for how Christians should behave. (The Old Testament is just that: an old covenant that has been ultimately fulfilled through Jesus. The New Testament is the Christian guideline until the end. Love God, and love people. Matthew 22:36-40 "“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” )
I believe that the heavens (and all creation) are crying out that God exists, and He is great. (Psalm 19 - also watch Louie Giglio's sermon on this matter)
Since science stops with the physical realm, by nature it cannot "prove" that God exists. (Since God is a spirit being) We have tons of outside evidence though: all of creation, Jesus, our own conscience, etc.
Not only that, but God works through faith. And faith, by Biblical definition: Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."
So do we "see" God with our physical eyes? No. Do we see evidence that points to a god? I believe, absolutely. The problem is being able to look at the evidence from an unbiased point of view which is extremely difficult especially in this Western world where the demonic spiritual realm has remained cleverly quiet. (read Lee Strobel's Case for a Creator mentioned above for physical evidence)
It's quite amazing, but look at how a human baby is formed and develops in its mother's womb from conception to birth. It's quite the "miracle" to watch and experience. (Having 2 young children myself.) So is that evidence of a Creator? I would say yes. Others would call me ignorant, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but by nature of what I believe to be true, I also have to believe that others are wrong (2 Peter 3:3-5)... And that's fine as long as I do not judge, hate, or act unkind or unloving.
It's funny: if you look at Jesus' life, the people He got angry and upset with the most were His disciples, and the "religious"... (by "religious" I mean those who claimed to follow God but cared more about their appearance or position rather than their relationship with God and loving Him and his fellow man) While he ate dinner with the "sinners" (ie: prostitutes and tax collectors). He showed them the love of God that Christians today are supposed to be showing to the world... (which many would say they are failing at miserably as so many "Christians" are quick to point the finger and judge)
All this to say: I probably won't be debating in here; I just wanted to state my beliefs and some of the "evidence" I have. (read the books mentioned above, view that linked website and watch the video) (I won't turn down an open invitation to talk about Jesus!)
(As with anything you see or hear: it is a good practice to "eat the meat and spit out the bones". I don't necessarily agree with everything Lee Strobel says or what is on the Dr Dino site, but that doesn't negate the fact that there are a lot of interesting facts presented and points to consider.)
Cheers!
(and when is D3 coming out?!!?
edit: Oh - and Christians should not be afraid or shy away from science in any branch. God created it to show his magnificence! The more we discover about how complex everything is, the more we should be in awe. I personally love astronomy in particular.