ah but its not pure speculation. its backed up with facts about the skills and how they work. much less speculation then "zombie wall makes you LEET".
The entire premise of this thread is pure speculation. There's no way to know that pet skills will be mandatory for Inferno without having played in Inferno without them and miserably failed.
Also, I never argued that "zombie wall makes you LEET." I simply pointed out that it's a CC spell that you didn't include in your list of "Skills for surviving" in the OP. Are you really arguing that Wall of Zombies wouldn't help you survive?
The only video we've seen (that I know of) featuring Wall of Zombies is the original announcement trailer, and there's nothing there that would lead me to believe that enemies can walk through it.
all the skills i listed have been show cased or seen in the beta so that is NOT speculation. there IS a way to know if its mandatory... looking at all of his skills, calculating, using common sense. all make it 10x more valid then just saying "oh i THINK this will do this.." thats not what i did or im doing. ive taken careful time to look at each skill and deduce the possible outcomes, coming to an ultimate conclusion that they seem almost entirely mandatory for solo. it is very calculated speculation, but labeling it "pure speculation" is far from what it actually is.
im not arguing it wont help u survive, of course it will. im arguing that that ONE skill doesnt make up for not having pets, that is all.
the video featuring wall of zombies ive watched literally 10 times, the mobs die almost instantaneously when they hit the wall making it so we dont know either way if they were going to attack it, walk through it, or ANYTHING because the mobs instantly died. that skill of all in the game is probably the most one with speculation on how it works. so thats a very bad example to use.
you also ignored my very valid points on why it would make sense for it to be able to be walked through regarding rune effects.
What about the term "wall" makes you assume that enemies can just walk through it? And when did I ever mention its damage? Unfortunately for you, if you want to make this thread, you can't discount speculation in others' arguments since that's all the discussion you're going to get (not to mention that your OP is entirely speculation).
ah but its not pure speculation. its backed up with facts about the skills and how they work. much less speculation then "zombie wall makes you LEET". if zombie wall is not only impenetrable and can't be walked through, you could just sanction yourself off and never be hit, making that ability stupidly over powered. so highly doubtful its both. so mobs will be able to destroy it, or walk through it (while taking dmg of course) would be the most likely outcome of that ability. but hey if its both then wow zombie wall is the way to go. BUT from reading the runes of possible changes to zombie wall, its makes sense that its able to be walked through, how? because why would you care to DOUBLE the width if it can't be walked through? making an extra half inch for mobs to get around it? lol... and how it slows enemies, so only enemies that run up, touch it, then run around get slowed? no it seems much much more obvious that its able to be walked through reading the rune effects.
but one ability isn't much of an argument considering all of the information i gave supporting otherwise.
No love for Wall of Zombies, the one skill that literally and directly prevents enemies from getting close to you? Nothing we've seen indicates that the wall can be attacked (so it's guaranteed to be up for 5 seconds), it has no cooldown, and enemies can't pass through it. Did I mention you can rune it to slow enemies or to double its width? Couple it with Grasp of the Dead and enemies will be sitting ducks ready for you to spam your damaging skills.
I agree that his survival passives are somewhat lacking, but I think he has way better Life restoration capabilities through Runes than any other class (Alabaster Grasp/Spirit Walk, Crimson Haunt/Spirit Barrage/Soul Harvest, Golden Hex/Firebats, etc.).
Don't forget also that most of his CC spells are - or can be runed to be - damaging spells as well. Overall, I think that playing without pets will be somewhat of a hindrance, but it doesn't seem as bad as you're making it out to be.
wall of zombies doesn't do shit for damage and mobs can just walk through it ( nothing indicates that it can't be walked through or attacked, thats super speculation, or way or the other). one skill thats not that great doesn't suddenly make him viable for inferno... -_-. like i said please post a build supporting your theory.
Please do not reply without reading my full post and no flaming/trolling as well as fully explain your build / link.
So I've used the skill calc literally hundreds of times, making hundreds of builds for every single class, and from what i can tell the ONLY real viable end-game builds for the WD soloing 100% require pets, especially if you haven't super massed defense gear. honestly just because blizzard talks about all viable builds doesn't mean EVERY build possible for every class is viable in end game without 1-2 spells that are a must. although this "bla bla skill is a must for inferno" i have only found to be true for the WD. sure norm - hell(doubtful) you might be able to get away with no pets, but inferno? good luck, you'll be one shotted instantly and constantly fleeing rotating CC's while not doing much dmg, so yes the WD survivability in later difficulties is almost entirely based upon having AT LEAST 1 summon to help him kite around. IMO (unless you can somehow prove otherwise)
let me explain in detail so you can properly rebuttal without repeat information:
WD skills for surviving WITHOUT pets, yes these can be runed to make them better or have less of a cool down but not so much better to make them worth not having zombie dogs or gargantuan. not even close. pets are 10x > then these. but pets used in CONJUNCTION with these makes him super awesome.
1. mass confusion (1 min CD)
2. horrify (20 sec CD)
3. spirit walk (15 second CD)
4. grasp of the dead (8 second CD)
5. Hex (10 second CD)
6 haunt with crimson rune 45% dmg returned
7. firebats with golden rune for 20% dmg returned, but using this skill up close to hit makes u super vulnerable without pets and you will die in inferno/hell
as you can see every single one of his CC spells has a CD, and its not guaranteed that horrify/confusion will work on every monster. and hex is very slow and barley hexes that many targets (watching beta footage).
passives for surviving:
1. death trance
yes sir, only ONE passive that helps with surviving.
none of these are that amazing. some slows and some things to make monsters run/fight eachother. but considering these may be ineffective in inferno, such as monsters who are immune to slow and/or immune to confusion/horrify. what then? your screwed without pets. nothing is immune to your pets attacking them, sure the AI in inferno will make some mobs run past your pets, but nothing says your pets won't grab back aggro when they attack them.
So unless you want to have mostly/all CC spells and constantly have to rotate them to survive while doing almost no dmg, you NEED summons to be efficient and even OK at killing SOLO and especially at surviving in later difficulties. the WD also doesn't have any super high dmg abilities without pets, all of his abilities are in the 100-300% range, while other classes have some that are 400-900% (besides Sacrifice, which you'd need pets for >_>). so the best way to kill efficiently and smoothly and in reality, AT ALL, is any viablesolo build you make will need to have BOTH of the pets + pet passive so they can take hits. so unless you have SOMEONE ELSE tanking for you, you won't survive in inferno without pets. period. thats 2 of 6 skills. and 1 of 3 passives, the others can be whatever you want and still be good. pets are the WD's GREATEST spells by far for any situation and if you rune your pets to do dmg with crimson they can potentially do more overall DPS combined then you can. so in this sense i believe if you want to survive AND do the most potential DPS you definitely need pets.
so what I'm asking is, has anyone been able to make a build (without screaming gear is the key, because how are u going to get that gear in the first place?) that has the potential to do lots of dmg AND survive in hell/inferno without any pets?
The title says it all... I was all pumped for the fall release date... Now I'm entirely un-enthused... This experience has been entirely distasteful. We're all going to hit the level 60 cap within two weeks, then destroy inferno difficulty, on hardcore mind you. Then what for those of us who play hardcore?... Farm items for the next 4 years while there's zero competitive play-style available like high level risky duels?
I'm over this bullshit they're about to release, I hope something changes.
nothing will change. get over it or like it. blizzard doesn't care about that 5% of the community like you who complain over the changes that make perfect sense. they won't change anything because your expecting a PVE hack n slash to suddenly become about pvp when it never has been. keep dreaming and QQing
What do you think about this guys! non stop spamming weapon throw build.
basically you have the passive relentless that grants you fury cost free skills while below 20% life.
why weapon throw and not other skill? I think the video explains for it but weapon throw is on of the highest damages skill. weapon throw (210%) + crimson rune lvl 4 (increase of 150%)+ no escape passive (100%)+ battle rage with rune lvl7(100%)= Total awesomeness.
dont forget gear and modifiers!!!!!
The idea is that you are in the arena and you got hit and you are below 20% life-it will happen guys-your passive kicks in and you start spamming weapon throw....its free...and its range so the barbarian don't have to get closer and get damage or be kited......dealing with DH and wizards....basically get so such damage that you one shot them.
you'd die before you get to do it, terrible idea. its easy to make a REAL throw barb that you don't have to be at 20% health to use. go back to the skill calc
Yeah to me this is the biggest difference between D3 and D2. I remember i made a fire sorc then saw what the frost nova could do . I had to recreate a whole new toon. Will be nice to see if you make a mistake you can correct it without losing 3-4 months of playtime.
not sure how long its been since you played D2, but they implemented re doing of skills in D2 awhile ago. you can respec all of your skill points from the den of evil quest reward. and in hell the bosses drop things that when they are combined it creates a skill respec token. which are pretty common, so even in D2 you no longer lose ANY playtime if you messed up your build or wanted to try a new one. this WAS an insane flaw of D2, only took 11 years to correct
Just a quick question for the guys who are lucky enough to be playing beta. Can you interchange your passive skills. And what about the rest of the skills. Are they all locked once you choose what you want to do? If i remember right the runes can be removed correct ?
runes are not in the beta, they don't show up till act 2. and they have not implemented the "only skill swapping allowed in town" feature yet. so in the beta you can switch anything anytime anywhere.
yeah it sucks... and like you i can no longer stand world of warcraft... i have had enough.. lol. so i play Sc2 / LoL and i wait... and i slowly go insane...
ya man. my only fun in wow was leveling and using new characters. so i have all 10 classes at 85. well i deleted 1 to make room for the monk with the new expansion. i bought that annual pass so i could get D3 for free and beta access for the MOP. i have to at least try it. lol. but ya man I'm going insane too. i bought dragon age 2 but that stinks.
No its not sad, my life has been ruined since that day... it took a step in the right direction when i preordered the collectors edition and found out u get facking WINGS, but all in all im in a fit of constant rage because of that pushback.
ya me too because i can no longer play wow, and starting any other game seems pointless. i really needed it to come out nov-dec.... em i supposed to get a fucking life or something? fuck that. lol. i thought i could play TL2 or POE while i waited but both of those were pushed back like 4 times already... won't be released till basically december..
i bet sixen is the one picking the winners. after watching his annoying commentaries with force (he's annoying not force). its obvious he would pick something completely retarded and not as clever as the rest
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all the skills i listed have been show cased or seen in the beta so that is NOT speculation. there IS a way to know if its mandatory... looking at all of his skills, calculating, using common sense. all make it 10x more valid then just saying "oh i THINK this will do this.." thats not what i did or im doing. ive taken careful time to look at each skill and deduce the possible outcomes, coming to an ultimate conclusion that they seem almost entirely mandatory for solo. it is very calculated speculation, but labeling it "pure speculation" is far from what it actually is.
im not arguing it wont help u survive, of course it will. im arguing that that ONE skill doesnt make up for not having pets, that is all.
the video featuring wall of zombies ive watched literally 10 times, the mobs die almost instantaneously when they hit the wall making it so we dont know either way if they were going to attack it, walk through it, or ANYTHING because the mobs instantly died. that skill of all in the game is probably the most one with speculation on how it works. so thats a very bad example to use.
you also ignored my very valid points on why it would make sense for it to be able to be walked through regarding rune effects.
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ah but its not pure speculation. its backed up with facts about the skills and how they work. much less speculation then "zombie wall makes you LEET". if zombie wall is not only impenetrable and can't be walked through, you could just sanction yourself off and never be hit, making that ability stupidly over powered. so highly doubtful its both. so mobs will be able to destroy it, or walk through it (while taking dmg of course) would be the most likely outcome of that ability. but hey if its both then wow zombie wall is the way to go. BUT from reading the runes of possible changes to zombie wall, its makes sense that its able to be walked through, how? because why would you care to DOUBLE the width if it can't be walked through? making an extra half inch for mobs to get around it? lol... and how it slows enemies, so only enemies that run up, touch it, then run around get slowed? no it seems much much more obvious that its able to be walked through reading the rune effects.
but one ability isn't much of an argument considering all of the information i gave supporting otherwise.
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wall of zombies doesn't do shit for damage and mobs can just walk through it ( nothing indicates that it can't be walked through or attacked, thats super speculation, or way or the other). one skill thats not that great doesn't suddenly make him viable for inferno... -_-. like i said please post a build supporting your theory.
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So I've used the skill calc literally hundreds of times, making hundreds of builds for every single class, and from what i can tell the ONLY real viable end-game builds for the WD soloing 100% require pets, especially if you haven't super massed defense gear. honestly just because blizzard talks about all viable builds doesn't mean EVERY build possible for every class is viable in end game without 1-2 spells that are a must. although this "bla bla skill is a must for inferno" i have only found to be true for the WD. sure norm - hell(doubtful) you might be able to get away with no pets, but inferno? good luck, you'll be one shotted instantly and constantly fleeing rotating CC's while not doing much dmg, so yes the WD survivability in later difficulties is almost entirely based upon having AT LEAST 1 summon to help him kite around. IMO (unless you can somehow prove otherwise)
let me explain in detail so you can properly rebuttal without repeat information:
WD skills for surviving WITHOUT pets, yes these can be runed to make them better or have less of a cool down but not so much better to make them worth not having zombie dogs or gargantuan. not even close. pets are 10x > then these. but pets used in CONJUNCTION with these makes him super awesome.
1. mass confusion (1 min CD)
2. horrify (20 sec CD)
3. spirit walk (15 second CD)
4. grasp of the dead (8 second CD)
5. Hex (10 second CD)
6 haunt with crimson rune 45% dmg returned
7. firebats with golden rune for 20% dmg returned, but using this skill up close to hit makes u super vulnerable without pets and you will die in inferno/hell
as you can see every single one of his CC spells has a CD, and its not guaranteed that horrify/confusion will work on every monster. and hex is very slow and barley hexes that many targets (watching beta footage).
passives for surviving:
1. death trance
yes sir, only ONE passive that helps with surviving.
none of these are that amazing. some slows and some things to make monsters run/fight eachother. but considering these may be ineffective in inferno, such as monsters who are immune to slow and/or immune to confusion/horrify. what then? your screwed without pets. nothing is immune to your pets attacking them, sure the AI in inferno will make some mobs run past your pets, but nothing says your pets won't grab back aggro when they attack them.
So unless you want to have mostly/all CC spells and constantly have to rotate them to survive while doing almost no dmg, you NEED summons to be efficient and even OK at killing SOLO and especially at surviving in later difficulties. the WD also doesn't have any super high dmg abilities without pets, all of his abilities are in the 100-300% range, while other classes have some that are 400-900% (besides Sacrifice, which you'd need pets for >_>). so the best way to kill efficiently and smoothly and in reality, AT ALL, is any viable solo build you make will need to have BOTH of the pets + pet passive so they can take hits. so unless you have SOMEONE ELSE tanking for you, you won't survive in inferno without pets. period. thats 2 of 6 skills. and 1 of 3 passives, the others can be whatever you want and still be good. pets are the WD's GREATEST spells by far for any situation and if you rune your pets to do dmg with crimson they can potentially do more overall DPS combined then you can. so in this sense i believe if you want to survive AND do the most potential DPS you definitely need pets.
so what I'm asking is, has anyone been able to make a build (without screaming gear is the key, because how are u going to get that gear in the first place?) that has the potential to do lots of dmg AND survive in hell/inferno without any pets?
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im not jewish you fucking ass hole
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nothing will change. get over it or like it. blizzard doesn't care about that 5% of the community like you who complain over the changes that make perfect sense. they won't change anything because your expecting a PVE hack n slash to suddenly become about pvp when it never has been. keep dreaming and QQing
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you'd die before you get to do it, terrible idea. its easy to make a REAL throw barb that you don't have to be at 20% health to use. go back to the skill calc
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not sure how long its been since you played D2, but they implemented re doing of skills in D2 awhile ago. you can respec all of your skill points from the den of evil quest reward. and in hell the bosses drop things that when they are combined it creates a skill respec token. which are pretty common, so even in D2 you no longer lose ANY playtime if you messed up your build or wanted to try a new one. this WAS an insane flaw of D2, only took 11 years to correct
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this belongs in the pvp discussion forum. and no
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runes are not in the beta, they don't show up till act 2. and they have not implemented the "only skill swapping allowed in town" feature yet. so in the beta you can switch anything anytime anywhere.
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yes because this is WoW, gtfo of the D3 forums
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in 2 shots ? yes. you should be. considering the first shot took nearly 65% of his health
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ya man. my only fun in wow was leveling and using new characters. so i have all 10 classes at 85. well i deleted 1 to make room for the monk with the new expansion. i bought that annual pass so i could get D3 for free and beta access for the MOP. i have to at least try it. lol. but ya man I'm going insane too. i bought dragon age 2 but that stinks.
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it effects melee and spectral blade, its been tested in the beta
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ya me too because i can no longer play wow, and starting any other game seems pointless. i really needed it to come out nov-dec.... em i supposed to get a fucking life or something? fuck that. lol. i thought i could play TL2 or POE while i waited but both of those were pushed back like 4 times already... won't be released till basically december..