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• posted a message on 1.05: LoH vs LL + Weapon Choice MH+OH
Quote from tanis0

Quote from afallach »

Quote from afallach

tl;dr patch (@100k dps) 1.04 1% life leech = 170 life per hit, patch 1.05 1% life leech = 1001 life per hit

Ok, so there's the numbers on life steal vs life on hit. To put it into context, here's what you have to do. If you do 50k dps and both of your weapons are equal, then you divide my numbers by 2, ie:
patch 1.04: 170/(100,000/50,000)=85
patch 1.05: 1001/(100,000/50,000)=501

The equation obviously life on hit for either patch / (100,000/your dps)

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the character screen dps is an average of weapon damage between both hands. So, averagely speaking, it should apply to the calculations regardless of what the disparity of dps numbers is between your two weapons. These equations will work no matter what you are wielding.

Keep in mind that while Whirlwind uses your character-sheet DPS, Sprint tornadoes do not -- they only care about damage per hit from you main-hand. This means that the averaging of your weapon speed does have an impact for Sprint tornadoes as do any +damage, +strength, increased attack speed, etc. affixes on the off-hand weapon, but the base damage range on the off-hand doesn't make any difference. Due to this, character-sheet DPS is largely irrelevant for determining actual DPS for Sprint tornadoes.

As far as the statement that 1% lifeleech goes from being worth 170 LoH to 1001 LoH, that's crazy-talk. The nerf to LoH is to 40% of its previous value (for Sprint tornadoes only), so that means if it was worth 170 LoH before, 1% lifeleech can be worth no more than 170 / 0.4 = 425 LoH now. In actuality, its relative value vs. LoH will be less than that since the nerf doesn't affect WW.

Quote from afallach

Life leech = total damage done * (life leech amount * .2 inferno nerf) = 3,827,250 (.06 * .2) = 45927
Life on hit = (total attacks * proc coefficient) * life on hit
Sprint = (4*5.67*3*.2) * 1500 = 19,332 life
WW = (5.67*3*.13) * 1500 = 3,317 life

So 6% life leech got us 45927 life and our 1500 life on hit got us 22,649 life back. This works out to 15309 life per second on life leech and 6444 life per second with the life on hit.

Now, the 1.05 nerf is going to effect the Sprint Coefficient, so the new numbers here are:
(4*5.67*3*.08) * 1500 = 8165

This changes our life per second total on the life on hit to 3827 life per second. So the worth of 1% life leech compared to life on hit?

patch 1.04: 1% life leech = 2552 life per second, 1 life on hit = 15 life per second, which works out to 170 life on hit for 1% life leech.
patch 1.05: 1% life leech = 2552 life per second, 1 life on hit = 2.55 life per second, which works out to 1001 life on hit for 1% life leech.

Using your formulas (and I don't know if they are correct or not):

Sprint 1.04 = (4*5.67*3*.2) * 1500 = 19,332 life 20412
Sprint 1.05 = (4*5.67*3*.08) * 1500 = 8165 life
WW = (5.67*3*.13) * 1500 = 3,317 life

20412 + 3317 = 23729 / 3 / 1500 = 5.27 life per second per 1 LoH in 1.04
8165 + 3317 = 11482 / 3 / 1500 = 2.55 life per second per 1 LoH in 1.05

2.55 / 5.27 = 48.4%, which is exactly what I predicted in my previous post, based on your example. So again, the value of lifsteal vs. LoH will roughly double when 1.05 hits, assuming we accept your example as valid.

If we want to compare it to 1% LL at 100k damage using identical weapons (and assuming your DPS calculations are correct and I have no idea whether or not they are), 1% LL would be worth 3,827,250 * .01 * .2 / 3 = 2551.5 life per scond.

1% LL = 2551.5 / 5.27 = 484 life on hit in 1.04
1% LL = 2551.5 / 2.55 = 1001 life on hit in 1.05

However, since we have been using character-sheet DPS to determine tornado damage, true DPS is probably different from these calculations as off-hand damage range is known to not affect it. In other words, since off-hand weapon isn't accounted for, it seems they are using an odd DPS calculation which is unlikely to match what you've used, but I have no insight into what it should be.

Again, you are correct, I didn't correct the 19332. Your figure is right. I still have to redo the whole example, but at this point it's just an example of why the character screen is a terrible indicator of damage done, we don't know anything, and why there are so many variables that can effect all this.

I know for a fact that my damage figures for whirlwind are wrong, and I'm going to be deleting that post I made after all my math. For sure, whirlwind hits DO NOT hit for 145% weapon damage, and I'm not sure exactly how much weapon damage they hit for. I know it's higher than tornadoes but it's sure not harder than bash. It's roughly 1/3 of bashes damage if my observations are correct, but that is a terrible indicator of anything.
Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep
• posted a message on 1.05: LoH vs LL + Weapon Choice MH+OH
Indeed you guys are correct. Sorry, 4am, blah blah. I knew there would be an error there somewhere. So there you go, life leech will roughly double in value to life on hit.

Quote from geminihc

i dont get the calculation regarding the difference in 1.04 vs 1.05 LL, nothing has changed regarding LL so why would the numbers be different for LL ?

and there is something wrong in the calculation above. yes it should be 0.2 which means it is 45k instead of 4k as that person wrote. so basically if your DPS is 100k+ , basically LL is better in all aspects than loh , even now.

Yeah, going to go through it again and fix the calc's. Also, I'm not 100% confident in the whirlwind damage calculations. The tooltip say's 145% weapon damage, but I do not know if that is per hit or if it's divided up in some weird calculation blizzard isn't giving us. If someone knows better, please let me know.

Quote from tanis0

Quote from afallach

I didn't realize how much damage whirlwind does compared to sprint in our builds, I thought sprint was the damage dealer by a long shot. Turns out Whirlwind does nearly twice as much damage compared to 4 tornadoes on the ground.

I haven't double-checked your math, but these points jumped out at me.

First, you are using equal weapons in both hands which favors WW. Since Sprint uses only main-hand damage and most of us have low-dps stat-sticks in the offhand, the disparity is generally less than that.

Second, WW only works while you are on top of the mob while Sprint tornadoes continue to work after you've whirled past it. In a large group of mobs, you can be hitting a lot more mobs simultaneously with tornadoes than you can with WW. EDIT: Though I suppose you did give 4 tornadoes to 1 WW.

All points you made were valid. I based my calculations on say, a Azmodan fight where you SHOULD have 100% uptime on whirlwind compared to tornadoes. Obviously, if you can't stay on target with whirlwind, and it's doing no damage, it's nothing compared to Sprint.

Quote from afallach

tl;dr patch (@100k dps) 1.04 1% life leech = 170 life per hit, patch 1.05 1% life leech = 1001 life per hit

Ok, so there's the numbers on life steal vs life on hit. To put it into context, here's what you have to do. If you do 50k dps and both of your weapons are equal, then you divide my numbers by 2, ie:
patch 1.04: 170/(100,000/50,000)=85
patch 1.05: 1001/(100,000/50,000)=501

The equation obviously life on hit for either patch / (100,000/your dps)

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the character screen dps is an average of weapon damage between both hands. So, averagely speaking, it should apply to the calculations regardless of what the disparity of dps numbers is between your two weapons. These equations will work no matter what you are wielding.

Quote from geminihc

i dont get the calculation regarding the difference in 1.04 vs 1.05 LL, nothing has changed regarding LL so why would the numbers be different for LL ?

and there is something wrong in the calculation above. yes it should be 0.2 which means it is 45k instead of 4k as that person wrote. so basically if your DPS is 100k+ , basically LL is better in all aspects than loh , even now.

There should be no difference in the amount life leech returns to you in health per second in 1.04 or 1.05. I do not think my calculations messed that up, but hey......

Quote from Rosenkrantz

Im just saying i tested this in the PTR with different offhand weapons and other items, LOH and LL.
The result for me was that the loh was much more effective in spite of the lowered proc efficient on the tornadoes.
With the fury cost on ww reduced you are able to keep ww spinning all the time, and with a very fast attack speed (i have around 2.15 aps) the loh worked very very well compared to the LL.

I would never go for pure LL its gonna be very hard to stay alive on packs that are constantly running around and not staying in the tornadoes.

with 5% LL, 1200 loh and around 55k dps i never die on mp6-8, and this is only because i can keep ww going until everything is dead. With 7% LL and no loh i died many times.

way to go: LL on belt and MH (which is cheap right now) and alot of loh on quick offhand and maybe some jewelry.

Hence the problem of all this. Life on hit is effected by your attack speed, life steal is not. Life steal is effected by your overall damage, life on hit is not. Multiplying enemies hit is a surefire way of scaling up life steal, while it should be a linear increase with life on hit. But, if there is only one target to hit, the scaling of life steal doesn't mean much. I think I still stand by everything I put down though, life leech is incredibly powerful at higher dps numbers and scales better either way. How much they are worth compared to each other is completely variable.
Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep
• posted a message on 1.05: LoH vs LL + Weapon Choice MH+OH
Quick observations from my previous post:

The 100k damage double whirlwind barbarian in my example is actually doing 10 times that damage per monster hit, multiply that by multiple monsters hit to get an idea why we are so good at farming.

They are making life leech about 12 times more valuable compared to life on hit in the next patch compared to what it's worth in this patch.

Life per second on gear is more valuable than I thought, especially compared to what life leech gives you.

Life per hit return on investment in 1.04 is absolutely crazy, I'm honestly surprised they let it go this long, it should have been nerfed in 1.04.

Proc coefficients are a pain in the ass, and totally misleading to the average player.

I didn't realize how much damage whirlwind does compared to sprint in our builds, I thought sprint was the damage dealer by a long shot. Turns out Whirlwind does nearly twice as much damage compared to 4 tornadoes on the ground.

My calculations do not even attempt to touch the fury gains, our generation will be heavily nerfed in the next patch right along with life on hit. From my testing on the beta realm though, I have enough fury to keep up sprint but not enough to sustain wrath.

I need to find something to do at 4am.

Increasing your attack speed is a surefire way of making your life on hit more effective, but not your life hit. This is the exact reason why it has been so good for so long. Maybe they should have capped exactly how much you can get back from it instead of messing with the proc coefficients.
Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep
• posted a message on 1.05: LoH vs LL + Weapon Choice MH+OH
A lot of misinformation here. First, no life leech is not capped in any way. Although you could say the cap is how much you can effectively stack, it only appears on weapons and on belts, plus our passive that gives us 3%, so in effect the most you can get is 12%. Either way, no matter how much you have on gear it is always on and working. As far as it's effectiveness, life leech does work in a different way than life on hit does.

For simplicity's sake, let's say you do 100k effective damage to a monster, 1% life leech would be as effective as 200 life on hit. Now, the problem is that life on hit has to go through proc coefficients, and this is where the math get's a little weird. Since life leech does not care how you do the damage nor does it care about proc coefficients, it is always "on" and does not suffer from the Run Like the Wind tornado nerf in 1.05.

So to really determine the effectiveness of life leech vs life on hit, you need to see how a typical whirlwind barbarian does damage. Your character screen damage per second number really isn't how much damage you can do per second, in reality it is much higher. What they should really call it is average weapon damage, but that is another argument. How does a whirler barb do damage? The two big sources are Sprint with Run Like the Wind rune, and of course Whirlwind. The tornado's dropped by Sprint do 20% weapon damage, and they hit multiple times per second depending on your swing speed. Whirlwind does 145% weapon damage per tick, and ticks at the same frequency as Sprint, but Sprint only hits with the main hand while Whirlwind alternates with both weapons. Check ticks per second for both skills here. So, in the end, what does this all mean? For that we need to create a scenario.

A Barbarian has the same exact weapon in both hands, and drops down 4 tornadoes around an enemy and whirlwinds through them twice. Attack speed is 1.75 for both weapons and character screen damage per second is 100,000. This barbarian has 1500 life on hit and 6% life leech. The effective whirlwind time on target is 1.5 seconds per whirlwind. We are attacking one target.

For both skills, the damage calculation is: (skill damage % * weapon damage) (attacks per second * seconds spent attacking) * targets hit.

Sprint = (.2 * 100,000) (4*5.67*3) 1 = 1,360,800 damage (note: 4 tornadoes were dropped, hence the 4.)

Whirlwind = (1.45 * 100,000) (5.67 * 3) 1 = 2,466,450 damage

total damage over 3 seconds = 3,827,250

How many times did we attack during that time? We had 4*5.67*3 hits with Sprint at .20 proc coefficient, and 5.67*3 hits with whirlwind at .13 proc coefficient. Now that we know all that, we can do the life leech vs life on hit calculations.

Life leech = total damage done * (life leech amount * .2 inferno nerf) = 3,827,250 (.06 * .2) = 45927
Life on hit = (total attacks * proc coefficient) * life on hit
Sprint = (4*5.67*3*.2) * 1500 = 19,332 life
WW = (5.67*3*.13) * 1500 = 3,317 life

So 6% life leech got us 45927 life and our 1500 life on hit got us 22,649 life back. This works out to 15309 life per second on life leech and 6444 life per second with the life on hit.

Now, the 1.05 nerf is going to effect the Sprint Coefficient, so the new numbers here are:
(4*5.67*3*.08) * 1500 = 8165

This changes our life per second total on the life on hit to 3827 life per second. So the worth of 1% life leech compared to life on hit?

patch 1.04: 1% life leech = 2552 life per second, 1 life on hit = 15 life per second, which works out to 170 life on hit for 1% life leech.
patch 1.05: 1% life leech = 2552 life per second, 1 life on hit = 2.55 life per second, which works out to 1001 life on hit for 1% life leech.

EDIT: Holy crap I totally messed up that inferno buff nerf to life steal, and it is amazing compared to life on hit. At least at 100k dps. Now, if you do less damage than that, the life steal should scale directly to that. For example, if your barbarian has 1500 life on hit and 50k dps, then life steal is exactly half as valuable. Now that there is a baseline, you can do the math from there. Thank you guys for pointing it out,
tanis0 and GonturanDJ.

Disclaimer: Napkin math is napkin math, if I made an error go ahead and point it out.

tl;dr patch (@100k dps) 1.04 1% life leech = 170 life per hit, patch 1.05 1% life leech = 1001 life per hit
Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep
• posted a message on HILARIOUS Siegebreaker Perma-Chokeslam /w IAMTHEATTACK
I remember seeing this a few weeks ago on Kripparrian's stream. He was running with Cybrix and Chengo, Kripp got picked up and Chengo kept him frozen the entire fight. It was funny how long it took with only the monk and wizard killing him, and not the ww/sprint barb
Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
• posted a message on How to farm over 100 rares an hour
So a network engineer and software engineer walk into the same thread, and the network engineer is right. Yeah, I know, bad joke. But in all seriousness, creating games at this pace is a huge load on the server. Hell, all you have to do is think about what exactly the server has to do to load the game to begin with. Considering games themselves are random seed events, every single time you make a game, the entire game world has to be generated and committed to server memory then. Not only that, assets have to be passed back to the client in a larger scale at first load then they would have to happen sequentially during game play. I'd imagine changing acts has the same load on the server as creating a game does, which is exactly why blizz probably made it a negative thing to change acts while farming.

In the end, it's taking more cpu cycles, more memory cycles, more bandwidith, just more everything in creating a game then it takes to play the game for one to four hours in the same act. I don't even have to see the software to know that, just looking at it logically tells you this.

And oh yeah, there is that one little thing blizzard talked about when the instituted the game creation limit to begin with, which was that making games created more load on the servers than maintaining them. All this arguing is a moot point, the guys that run the servers told us exactly what was going on. "The use of bots not only impacts the stability of the game service, but it also has an impact on the player-driven economy," so there you go, pulled right from the blue post about this.

u guis c wut i did thar?
Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
• posted a message on Neph Valor is addicting!
Quote from Reklaw

I never thought that something as simple as Nephalem Valor would be so addicting! Now that I've got 2 characters at lvl 60, each game becomes a race to 5 stacks of NV, then killing everything in my path for extra loot! No other game has created such an addicting idea where I have to keep playing once I've started! I just wish it would apply to chests and vases too! Make 5 stacks feel even more fantastic! Just throwing that out there!

P.S. Why stop at 5 stacks? Maybe starting in a3 inferno, let it go up to 10+ stacks????

To be honest, I wish it worked on chests and vases too, but then the bots would be rolling in loot more than they already do. I understand blizz's thinking behind it, but this is why we can't have nice things.......
Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
• posted a message on 7 Weeks Farming no upgrade MY VIDEO DIARY
Yeah Shaggy, he threw me for the same loop. I'm glad he clarified, I was about to think I was losing my marbles.
Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
• posted a message on 7 Weeks Farming no upgrade MY VIDEO DIARY
Quote from NerfGaming1337

Quote from afallach

Quote from NerfGaming1337

Quote from shaggy

What is your definition of a "clear" of Act 3 then? Because only 3 62/63 items in 3 "clears" is still highly suspect to me.

How many elite packs and bosses does a typical "clear" consist of?
start with sigebraker quest,, i clear all the battlments, all levels of the keep, the ice cave then everything after sigebraker

You know what, I'm gonna come right out and say it, you're full of it dude. There is no way you are doing entire clears of act 3 with 5 stacks of valor and getting 3 ilvl 62/63 drops. Hell, you don't even have to have 5 stacks, you can get more than that without any stacks at all. I don't know if it's just your schtick to get us to watch your channel or what it is, but there is absolutely no way that is happening. I'm just not buying it.
trust me m8 i really wish i was lieing, just a hand full of 63 items and id still be farming all day but only geting 1 is a real joke to me and i can handle not looting an upgrade in 8 weeks but yesterday was to much

If you cleared the entire act 3 times, keeping 5 stack of valor up, then you either have the worst luck of any person I've ever met in my entire life or you missed items on the ground. You have a better shot of getting struck by lightning, twice. You can swear about this up and down all you want, but I can not believe the fact that you only got 1 ilvl 63, according to the statistics of it for all intents and purposes it's impossible to do so. I don't know what you were or weren't doing, but something isn't right here.

As I said before, you should expect 20 to 30 rares, 5 or 6 of those being ilvl 63. Per run. Per hour or so. If that's not happening, then we are playing different games bud.
Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
• posted a message on 2handers ever viable?
The inherent problem with 2 handers is being limited to 1 socket. 100% crit damage is HUGE, yes, all capitals. I know it can be done, and has been done, but 2 handers can't meet the standards of dual wielding simply because of the amount of dps you lose in losing that extra socket. Hell, even shields have an advantage, you can make up for that 100% crit damage with 10% crit. My vote is to give 2 handers either an extra socket or a chance at critical strike percentage, because you just lose too much damage without either one.
Posted in: Barbarian: Bastion's Keep