That is a nice video, but there are a couple problems with it.
#1 It tries to estimate the time to acquire a single Rank14 gem. My estimation is a realistic time to acquire numerous rank 13s, and finally craft your 1st rank14.
#2 There is one mistake. The video says that drop rate of a specific gem is 4gems/hour, but that also means that the drop rate of the other 4 or 6 gems is also 4 gems/hour. Thus after 3.37 years, you have 4 or 6 gems, not just 1.
(4 or 6)
Currently we do not know how many gems their will be. They announced 6, but only 4 are in the items tab.
SO, can we fairly conclude that the highest-ranked gems are vastly underpowered for the time investment required to get them? I think we can!
If I had to propose a change (a quick, out-of-my-rear idea), I might add a tier-2 random modifier (ie, a modifier that might be found on lvl 40 armor) to rank 12 & 13 gems and a tier 1 (level 60 equivalent) modifier to rank 14 gems. Clearly Blizz has to step up the reward a bit in order to get us to commit the time and effort needed to produce a rank 14 gem - because the incentive just ain't there right now!
Kind of worth mentioning that even legendaries and set items have random properties...
This.
Even though most legendary weapons have fewer random properties (usually one or two), those could be all the difference in the world in terms of how the weapon shapes up. If a really great melee weapon rolls an additional '+% enhanced damage' for its random it will far surpass just about anything else.
The other side of this is that weapons of all types have a chance to be extremely different, even for the exact same legendary. If you get a legendary axe that rolls with '+ casting speed', it will be sought after by a very different group than one that rolled '+ crit damage'. Because of the random properties, legendaries should be extremely varied.
This means that the items will support your playstyle - not dictate it. This was a big trapping in D2's gameplay. The vast majority of builds relied on specific pieces of gear before you could even get started with a certain playstyle. In D3, you can pick the gear that works for your playstyle from the get-go. After playing D2 for eleven years, I see this as an improvement.
And, as stated above, if you get really lucky then crafted and rare items have the potential to be absolutely nuts if they roll the way you want them to be.
I agree with most of what you've said here, but think that you're missing a big point: if some legendary items have such immensely awesome base stats (or unique modifiers) that the best, say, 1h weapon is going to be some version of "Jay's Wilson" (a legendary 1h sword), then you wind up in the 'legendary or bust' situation again. Part of the point here is that I want there to be a lot of excitement when a rare high level base item drops. IF a player is disappointed because he knows that non-orange necessarily means sub-optimal, well, that's a bad outcome in my opinion.
Am I allowed to admit that my preference would be for legendaries not to exist at all?
Sure
I just hope you're willing to admit the whole Rare vs Legendaries preference is based a lot on our opinion on how Fixed vs Random the game should be.
A thousand times, yes. I would admit that all day long. And, for reasons of flexibility and excitement (as articulated in earlier posts), I'm inclined to think that random >> fixed. But game designers, like politicians, often can't help themselves. They love their vision so much that they're going to impose it on the rest of us, whether we want it or not! (Though at least game designers are responsible for the parts of the game that *work* as well!)
This is an expected but still problematic reply. Of COURSE it's true that I'm jumping to conclusions based on a very limited set of information. If Blizz were to release the complete item modifier table (and all the uniques/set pieces), then surely we could have a much more informed discussion. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that one.
The problem is is that if I wait (so as to be certain), it will in all likelihood be much, much too late. The game will be out, and these sorts of issues will no longer be addressable. So if I want to have even the slightest chance of influencing the final design of the game, I have no choice but to say something now. And based on what has been presented in the past 24 hours, I think it's fair to say that Blizz has *probably* made a design choice that will make legendary items the best items in the game... and, in my opinion, that's a mistake. No one wants to see a rare item drop and think "well, there's no chance of that being the best item... bummer". LEaving the build flexibility issue aside (even though I think it's the most important), I can say from experience that it's *much* more fun when every dropped rare high-level base item makes your heart beat faster. Legendary or bust for elite players is, in my opinion, a very bad design choice.
I recall it being Blizzard's stated design goal for the best rares to be better than the best uniques. Having flipped through even the small selection of the 'legendary' items listed on D3 website, I'm going to guess that they've abandoned this goal.
I will admit to be being a bit discouraged by this development. Anyone who played D2 prior to the XPAC must surely remember how cool it was to look for high level rares in Act 4 Hell. Almost any high-level base item that dropped with a yellow name was cause for excitement; if it was a yellow Executioner's Sword (at least in hardcore), you were over the moon. Post XPAC, it was barely worth your time to pick up a rare item. Unique or bust. And, frankly, that was a TERRIBLE change for the game. I can't believe how many folks in other item threads want there to be all sorts of uber-powerful abilities tied to Legendary items (and not to other items) so as to actually make them feel "legendary". IT's classic first-order thinking to say "wouldn't it be cool if!..." without then asking if it would upset other aspects of the game; given my experience in D2, I am very comfortable saying that having uber legendaries would hurt D3 immensely.
Finally, recall that having rare items drive itemization resulted in a vastly wider array of builds in D2 pre xpac (especially pre-lance) than we saw post, especially once all the uber-uniques were duped. More flexibility = more fun, in my view. I hope the developers don't fall into the trap of wanting to make manifest their fantasies of the world's most awesome [sword], etc...
To Blizzard: Take a step back, guys! You don't need to try to create the 'best' tier of gear. Randomness will set you free!
From the 4th Amazonian Epic, as heard and recorded by Abd al-Hazir
[i]May my song still bellow as your winds, Goddess, as I sing of our heroine's journey across the Plains of Despair:
How her arrows in their multitudes struck down the advancing Balrogs; How her valkyrie buried her spear in the vile Stygian Hags!
...
Pray, Goddess - send us your thunder now, that our daughters might not hear of the Envy Demons:
Those tortured souls, wretched among the wretched, their piercing screams and flame-eye lanterns haunting our heroine to her end-days!
[/i]
Envy Demons, truly wretched among the wretched on the lower plains of Hell, are formed from the souls of men who were consumed by their jealous lust for wealth or status while alive. Their tormentors on the lower plains have punished them by removing the Demon's eyes and encasing them [the eyes] in a fiery lantern, that a searing pain might accompany their covetous gazes for all eternity. The Envy Demons wander the plains carrying their burning lantern-eyes, endlessly searching for the objects they desire. More than anything, though, they covet life - which they hope to steal from the living!
They move with unnatural speed as they hurl themselves at their target, their piercing cries drawing the lantern-gazes of the other nearby demons - and they too soon join the fray.
But the worst is yet to come! For the screams of an Envy Demon summon their tormentor, sent to destroy the recently discovered object that the Demons so desire. Despair, Envy Demons! Your jealousy shall never be sated!
[I don't want to do a monster BOGOF, so I'll leave the many other creative folks on this board to determine what the summoned monster might be!]
Mechanics:
Coming, as I would imagine, at the end of the game, the Envy Demons are meant to introduce an element of almost Zelda-like strategy into the D3 experience. Since their eye lanterns will only allow them to see over a relatively narrow arc (20 degrees?), and over a relatively short distance (5 meters?), one strategy for dealing with Envy Demons might be to avoid them entirely. Attacking them at range would only serve to draw their attention to you immediately, so, absent one-shotting, ranged attacking might not work. Avoiding monsters? I know, I know: Not very Diablo. But hey - you could always attack them, and draw their attention + the attention of all nearby Envy Demons + summon their tormentor! Being swarmed by demons, + a big baddie on the way? That sounds like Diablo! A tactical approach that might work: stun them from behind, then kill them. Mechanically, this would require envy demons be weak against whatever forms of stun (or other crowd control) exist in the game; making them weak against attacks from behind might also make sense. Ideally, it should be possible for a moderately-well equipped player at that stage in the game to kill a stunned Envy Demon from behind before the stun wears off.
The creature would look like a skin-less, eye-less human carrying around a directional lantern with a large, fiery, eye in it. The 'light' from the lantern would give the player a very clear sense of how far, and over what arc, the gaze extended. Upon death, the creature would collapse, and the lantern would fall to the ground, shatter, and explode.
----------------------------------
Let me know what you guys think! Perhaps it's a bit half-baked, but I do think it would be fun to have to employ more than just a very basic target-prioritization strategy in Diablo 3! Any of you have ideas/thoughts along similar lines?
0
SO, can we fairly conclude that the highest-ranked gems are vastly underpowered for the time investment required to get them? I think we can!
If I had to propose a change (a quick, out-of-my-rear idea), I might add a tier-2 random modifier (ie, a modifier that might be found on lvl 40 armor) to rank 12 & 13 gems and a tier 1 (level 60 equivalent) modifier to rank 14 gems. Clearly Blizz has to step up the reward a bit in order to get us to commit the time and effort needed to produce a rank 14 gem - because the incentive just ain't there right now!
0
I agree with most of what you've said here, but think that you're missing a big point: if some legendary items have such immensely awesome base stats (or unique modifiers) that the best, say, 1h weapon is going to be some version of "Jay's Wilson" (a legendary 1h sword), then you wind up in the 'legendary or bust' situation again. Part of the point here is that I want there to be a lot of excitement when a rare high level base item drops. IF a player is disappointed because he knows that non-orange necessarily means sub-optimal, well, that's a bad outcome in my opinion.
0
A thousand times, yes. I would admit that all day long. And, for reasons of flexibility and excitement (as articulated in earlier posts), I'm inclined to think that random >> fixed. But game designers, like politicians, often can't help themselves. They love their vision so much that they're going to impose it on the rest of us, whether we want it or not! (Though at least game designers are responsible for the parts of the game that *work* as well!)
0
0
This is an expected but still problematic reply. Of COURSE it's true that I'm jumping to conclusions based on a very limited set of information. If Blizz were to release the complete item modifier table (and all the uniques/set pieces), then surely we could have a much more informed discussion. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that one.
The problem is is that if I wait (so as to be certain), it will in all likelihood be much, much too late. The game will be out, and these sorts of issues will no longer be addressable. So if I want to have even the slightest chance of influencing the final design of the game, I have no choice but to say something now. And based on what has been presented in the past 24 hours, I think it's fair to say that Blizz has *probably* made a design choice that will make legendary items the best items in the game... and, in my opinion, that's a mistake. No one wants to see a rare item drop and think "well, there's no chance of that being the best item... bummer". LEaving the build flexibility issue aside (even though I think it's the most important), I can say from experience that it's *much* more fun when every dropped rare high-level base item makes your heart beat faster. Legendary or bust for elite players is, in my opinion, a very bad design choice.
0
I will admit to be being a bit discouraged by this development. Anyone who played D2 prior to the XPAC must surely remember how cool it was to look for high level rares in Act 4 Hell. Almost any high-level base item that dropped with a yellow name was cause for excitement; if it was a yellow Executioner's Sword (at least in hardcore), you were over the moon. Post XPAC, it was barely worth your time to pick up a rare item. Unique or bust. And, frankly, that was a TERRIBLE change for the game. I can't believe how many folks in other item threads want there to be all sorts of uber-powerful abilities tied to Legendary items (and not to other items) so as to actually make them feel "legendary". IT's classic first-order thinking to say "wouldn't it be cool if!..." without then asking if it would upset other aspects of the game; given my experience in D2, I am very comfortable saying that having uber legendaries would hurt D3 immensely.
Finally, recall that having rare items drive itemization resulted in a vastly wider array of builds in D2 pre xpac (especially pre-lance) than we saw post, especially once all the uber-uniques were duped. More flexibility = more fun, in my view. I hope the developers don't fall into the trap of wanting to make manifest their fantasies of the world's most awesome [sword], etc...
To Blizzard: Take a step back, guys! You don't need to try to create the 'best' tier of gear. Randomness will set you free!
0
From the 4th Amazonian Epic, as heard and recorded by Abd al-Hazir
[i]May my song still bellow as your winds, Goddess, as I sing of our heroine's journey across the Plains of Despair:
How her arrows in their multitudes struck down the advancing Balrogs; How her valkyrie buried her spear in the vile Stygian Hags!
...
Pray, Goddess - send us your thunder now, that our daughters might not hear of the Envy Demons:
Those tortured souls, wretched among the wretched, their piercing screams and flame-eye lanterns haunting our heroine to her end-days!
[/i]
Envy Demons, truly wretched among the wretched on the lower plains of Hell, are formed from the souls of men who were consumed by their jealous lust for wealth or status while alive. Their tormentors on the lower plains have punished them by removing the Demon's eyes and encasing them [the eyes] in a fiery lantern, that a searing pain might accompany their covetous gazes for all eternity. The Envy Demons wander the plains carrying their burning lantern-eyes, endlessly searching for the objects they desire. More than anything, though, they covet life - which they hope to steal from the living!
They move with unnatural speed as they hurl themselves at their target, their piercing cries drawing the lantern-gazes of the other nearby demons - and they too soon join the fray.
But the worst is yet to come! For the screams of an Envy Demon summon their tormentor, sent to destroy the recently discovered object that the Demons so desire. Despair, Envy Demons! Your jealousy shall never be sated!
[I don't want to do a monster BOGOF, so I'll leave the many other creative folks on this board to determine what the summoned monster might be!]
Mechanics:
Coming, as I would imagine, at the end of the game, the Envy Demons are meant to introduce an element of almost Zelda-like strategy into the D3 experience. Since their eye lanterns will only allow them to see over a relatively narrow arc (20 degrees?), and over a relatively short distance (5 meters?), one strategy for dealing with Envy Demons might be to avoid them entirely. Attacking them at range would only serve to draw their attention to you immediately, so, absent one-shotting, ranged attacking might not work. Avoiding monsters? I know, I know: Not very Diablo. But hey - you could always attack them, and draw their attention + the attention of all nearby Envy Demons + summon their tormentor! Being swarmed by demons, + a big baddie on the way? That sounds like Diablo! A tactical approach that might work: stun them from behind, then kill them. Mechanically, this would require envy demons be weak against whatever forms of stun (or other crowd control) exist in the game; making them weak against attacks from behind might also make sense. Ideally, it should be possible for a moderately-well equipped player at that stage in the game to kill a stunned Envy Demon from behind before the stun wears off.
The creature would look like a skin-less, eye-less human carrying around a directional lantern with a large, fiery, eye in it. The 'light' from the lantern would give the player a very clear sense of how far, and over what arc, the gaze extended. Upon death, the creature would collapse, and the lantern would fall to the ground, shatter, and explode.
----------------------------------
Let me know what you guys think! Perhaps it's a bit half-baked, but I do think it would be fun to have to employ more than just a very basic target-prioritization strategy in Diablo 3! Any of you have ideas/thoughts along similar lines?