Fair enough. But you can look at every competitive game, either pvp or in this case, pve, players always want balance, and it still rarely happens. If you want to play one class and its competitive in support, aoe and single target and no other class thats fine but I think the evidence shows that more players are not only willing to switch classes when they rise to the top (which will always happen) but also that this model keeps more players interested in playing long term.
one thing players tend to forget is that blizzard makes all classes different is so players see clear differences between classes (so the game doesnt get stale) and more importantly, this allows us to develop synergies between classes to enable us to clear content better/faster. Aka meta
power creep is an inevitability. It allows them to focus on content, bumping difficulty and let the players decide how to use buffs/class synergies to best defeat that content. Its a win win.
i had a conversation the other day with a clanmate and he wanted to try his zdps support necro (perm land if the dead) with my LoN monk that is aoe oriented with cyclone strike. We were working it out and decided against it. Thats fun for me.
Not what Im saying. Im saying that the players are responsible for the meta. Since that is the case, there will always be a meta as theorycrafters and numbers crunchers will always figure out the best classes and specs for a specific purpose and then the community will embrace it.
This particular discussion is in regards to the paragon progression meta. The OP was complaining about his old meta build not being the meta build anymore and how he can't find old meta groups. Where my point is if you are that serious about paragon, why not create a meta class? He doesn't want to, so he's just stuck complaining when clearly the vast majority of players have moved on and obviously don't agree.
You added that any player, casual or elite should be able to play any spec they want and it should be "balanced". Im fine with balancing. Sure, why not.
But im willing to accept the fact that with the amount of different sets and legendary item combinations, that total balancing between everything is not only extremely difficult but also illusory because elite players will always find "the best", and the community will follow. It will also serve to dumb the game down (plug n play) as there would be no reason for players to meticulously create their builds if you can sneeze and create a competitive build.
Regardless, my monk for example has 5 different builds and some sub builds. So i have plenty of diversity. Im constantly tweeking them. I could create a paragon meta build, i chose not. But im also not going to force an entire community to accept any build I want like its a heroic dungeon in WoW. especially since time efficiency and finding the perfect class synergy is what the playerbase wants which is all the meta is.
There are plenty of games that you can meet new people while being tasked with random stuff to do where your time and character progress arent at stake.
Im just saying that for paragon farming, which people take seriously, why bother complaining about what the meta is, if you don't take it seriously enough to devote the time to explore the potential of the meta.
This game is complicated and that appeals to the playerbase. Youtube and even this website aren't negatives. They are necessary in fact. Casual and serious players alike can draw benefit from it in order to get better and more competitive, which is the point of it all.
You're talking about a plug n play game where basically nothing matters. You find one class and spec and play nothing else in perpetuity.
D3 is about trying new things, playing different gear, spec, class combinations. The meta will develop and so play that until it changes again.
Understood, but still, you're right they won't change it. I try and keep in mind that a lot of what players do, is on the players. The top players figure out the most efficient/strongest/fastest ways to play the game, post a youtube video, then everyone does it. I think a lot of what blizzard does is just design components that are fun and cool and hand it off to the players to decide what to do with it. Balancing is done for the purpose of reason, not to achieve perfection.
did anyone here think that blizzard would sell a new class without it being borderline op? People want something for their money and all ive heard is positive things about it.
From the pro-meta perspective and from my experience with other dungeon style games, the meta in D3 serves multiple purposes that enhance the game including in no small measure a way for rando public groups to weed out the casuals. If i was looking to efficiently paragon farm with 2 of my friends and opened a public slot for a 4 man paragon farm session and we've done the research and put the time in to have the best group possible, we honestly wouldn't want a random spec'd casual in the group. Having meta characters shows commitment and competency.
besides, the apparent irony in this thread is the OP *played the previous meta* with a shrine monk and simply doesnt want to switch to a zbarb. He was fine when he had the meta.
Capping seasonal paragon is an intriguing thought, but I'm not sure it coincides with what they are trying to do which is keeping players invested. The initial assumption is that capping would make the LBs more competitive, but in reality it won't. This is an RnG drop based game and paragon is a bridgegap that allows players with average RnG to remain competitive with somebody who gets a perfect primal amulet or weapon.
The meta has to change to keep players around trying new classes and spec combinations. Most players who invest a moderate amount of time play multiple characters now for specific purposes anyway. If you want to play one character and spec all the time, how can you complain about a game that is designed this way. Adapt or figure out a way to challenge yourself in other ways.
One quick fix is to compare yourself in LBs not with the top players, but players running your spec and paragon level. Thats what I do.
I think its important to note that most builds that are "popular" are not "starter builds". It requires some degree of optimization and upgrading to ancients.
That being said, i feel for you because I squeezed out a 70 early on with a painful duo gen build that was slow and dangerous with barely any ancients and some optimization.
There is a "pit" for many low paragon monk builds around 60-70 I think. Because like you I tried 4 different ones, settling on a duo gen because it could at least kill things in a 70GR without losing spirit or cumbersome sweeping wing stacks.
0
Fair enough. But you can look at every competitive game, either pvp or in this case, pve, players always want balance, and it still rarely happens. If you want to play one class and its competitive in support, aoe and single target and no other class thats fine but I think the evidence shows that more players are not only willing to switch classes when they rise to the top (which will always happen) but also that this model keeps more players interested in playing long term.
one thing players tend to forget is that blizzard makes all classes different is so players see clear differences between classes (so the game doesnt get stale) and more importantly, this allows us to develop synergies between classes to enable us to clear content better/faster. Aka meta
power creep is an inevitability. It allows them to focus on content, bumping difficulty and let the players decide how to use buffs/class synergies to best defeat that content. Its a win win.
i had a conversation the other day with a clanmate and he wanted to try his zdps support necro (perm land if the dead) with my LoN monk that is aoe oriented with cyclone strike. We were working it out and decided against it. Thats fun for me.
0
Not what Im saying. Im saying that the players are responsible for the meta. Since that is the case, there will always be a meta as theorycrafters and numbers crunchers will always figure out the best classes and specs for a specific purpose and then the community will embrace it.
This particular discussion is in regards to the paragon progression meta. The OP was complaining about his old meta build not being the meta build anymore and how he can't find old meta groups. Where my point is if you are that serious about paragon, why not create a meta class? He doesn't want to, so he's just stuck complaining when clearly the vast majority of players have moved on and obviously don't agree.
You added that any player, casual or elite should be able to play any spec they want and it should be "balanced". Im fine with balancing. Sure, why not.
But im willing to accept the fact that with the amount of different sets and legendary item combinations, that total balancing between everything is not only extremely difficult but also illusory because elite players will always find "the best", and the community will follow. It will also serve to dumb the game down (plug n play) as there would be no reason for players to meticulously create their builds if you can sneeze and create a competitive build.
Regardless, my monk for example has 5 different builds and some sub builds. So i have plenty of diversity. Im constantly tweeking them. I could create a paragon meta build, i chose not. But im also not going to force an entire community to accept any build I want like its a heroic dungeon in WoW. especially since time efficiency and finding the perfect class synergy is what the playerbase wants which is all the meta is.
0
There are plenty of games that you can meet new people while being tasked with random stuff to do where your time and character progress arent at stake.
Im just saying that for paragon farming, which people take seriously, why bother complaining about what the meta is, if you don't take it seriously enough to devote the time to explore the potential of the meta.
This game is complicated and that appeals to the playerbase. Youtube and even this website aren't negatives. They are necessary in fact. Casual and serious players alike can draw benefit from it in order to get better and more competitive, which is the point of it all.
You're talking about a plug n play game where basically nothing matters. You find one class and spec and play nothing else in perpetuity.
D3 is about trying new things, playing different gear, spec, class combinations. The meta will develop and so play that until it changes again.
0
Understood, but still, you're right they won't change it. I try and keep in mind that a lot of what players do, is on the players. The top players figure out the most efficient/strongest/fastest ways to play the game, post a youtube video, then everyone does it. I think a lot of what blizzard does is just design components that are fun and cool and hand it off to the players to decide what to do with it. Balancing is done for the purpose of reason, not to achieve perfection.
did anyone here think that blizzard would sell a new class without it being borderline op? People want something for their money and all ive heard is positive things about it.
From the pro-meta perspective and from my experience with other dungeon style games, the meta in D3 serves multiple purposes that enhance the game including in no small measure a way for rando public groups to weed out the casuals. If i was looking to efficiently paragon farm with 2 of my friends and opened a public slot for a 4 man paragon farm session and we've done the research and put the time in to have the best group possible, we honestly wouldn't want a random spec'd casual in the group. Having meta characters shows commitment and competency.
besides, the apparent irony in this thread is the OP *played the previous meta* with a shrine monk and simply doesnt want to switch to a zbarb. He was fine when he had the meta.
0
Capping seasonal paragon is an intriguing thought, but I'm not sure it coincides with what they are trying to do which is keeping players invested. The initial assumption is that capping would make the LBs more competitive, but in reality it won't. This is an RnG drop based game and paragon is a bridgegap that allows players with average RnG to remain competitive with somebody who gets a perfect primal amulet or weapon.
The meta has to change to keep players around trying new classes and spec combinations. Most players who invest a moderate amount of time play multiple characters now for specific purposes anyway. If you want to play one character and spec all the time, how can you complain about a game that is designed this way. Adapt or figure out a way to challenge yourself in other ways.
One quick fix is to compare yourself in LBs not with the top players, but players running your spec and paragon level. Thats what I do.
0
I think its important to note that most builds that are "popular" are not "starter builds". It requires some degree of optimization and upgrading to ancients.
That being said, i feel for you because I squeezed out a 70 early on with a painful duo gen build that was slow and dangerous with barely any ancients and some optimization.
There is a "pit" for many low paragon monk builds around 60-70 I think. Because like you I tried 4 different ones, settling on a duo gen because it could at least kill things in a 70GR without losing spirit or cumbersome sweeping wing stacks.