Yeah. Bcs why should I not beat Federer at tennis. I mean, this sport is so stupid It rewards him for putting more time in it. Damn stupid sport. Giving me equal chance to beat anyone no matter how much they practiced is what is perfect about chess. or any sport...
This isn't relevant. If you put as much time into tennis as Federer did, but he used steroids, then it would be comparable.
Yeah its cheating bcs of the rules and because it give you an advantage over players that do not use it. However it is not even similar to botting. It is true that turbo hud should become standard d3 hud. The point is that if anyone (every d3 player) used turbohub the game would be better experience for everyone.
Conclusion : Improved HUD makes the game better,
Bots : make the game worse.
Both are cheats. One should not be if blizzard did their job right. It should be normal d3 hud.
Your statement contradicts itself. If it's cheating and against the rules, then how would everybody using it make the game better? In the same point, how does botting not follow the same logical steps? (If everybody was botting, that levels the playing field for everybody), Agreed the UI could use an upgrade, but, to the point where I never take a wrong turn, I never stop to fight an elite pack long enough to figure out if I want to skip it? By that logic, the reverse is also possible, if everybody didn't use it (every d3 player) then it would improve the game. See how that works?
--> Will the majority of the actual player base quit the game because some enthusiastic players are botting? No. Will they cry about it? Yes.
--> Will the majority of the actual player base (including botters) quit, when blizzard decides to do smth against botters? Yes. Will a lot of innocent players be negatively affected by blizzards actions? Yes. Does Blizzard want to earn a lot of money? Yes.
Sorry, how do you know ? I know some people that already quitted to others botting, and botters that bots because they "have to" and will be glad to stop.
Blizzard is not going to harm their business. Botters will always be there. That's how it works now.
Keep in mind that for every business, the reputation is maybe the most important thing.
And Diablo having the reputation as a bot paradise is not good to their reputation.
And I know plenty of people who would quit if they couldn't bot. I would imagine these people just do not have much time to play and do not want to waste what little time they have doing bounties or normal rifts etc.. I am not saying this justifies it, I am just saying you know people who quit because of botting, and I know people who would quit without botting.
And profit >>>>>>>>>> reputation. Do you really think a business would rather make LESS money just to have the people using their product say "well at least they are reputable" over making MORE money but having people say "they do some stuff I don't agree with"? IF, this is a big if, Blizzard were to lose money from removing botting completely, I don't think botting will EVER go away. Remember that Bobby Kotick is in charge these days, and if you don't know his philosophy behind the game industry and making money, give it a nice Google search. The guy literally makes every move based on net gains, which from a business perspective doesn't seem unreasonable.
How many micro transactions are there in Diablo? Reputation in a game like this is everything. You pay once. If people hear that it's Botablo, where's the incentive to buy unless they intend to bot themselves? Profit vs. Rep doesn't really apply here, unless we're talking about the resources required to maintain the fair game state. In which case, attracting more people to buy the game would be a larger gain.
It doesn't make sense to include Thud in this letter because as you said, almost if not all of the people who signed the letter actually use Thud (Including me, back when i used to play D3). It's too good to give up on while still not breaking the game imo. It's very different from botting, it's more like a reaction to Blizzard's horrible hard-coded UI implementation in D3. The lack of modding support is just really bad and the fact that people have Thud to compensate that is actually a good thing in my view. If Blizzard just works on a better minimap to include things like champion / elite packs that you have already encountered, then they could also make it so you can't read the minimap portion of the game off of the client's memory somehow... I think if Thud didn't have the maphack then it would have been more legit and awesome but the fact that it has some sort of a maphack makes its validity go down by quite a bit. - This is an issue with the Blizzard default UI, to which D3 was not opened to modding for the exact reason THUD provides a maphack. It's the source-code, when THUD reads the memory it displays everything, from my understanding, it was a non-intentional 'perk' when the code was finished. That being said, it does provide a map-hack, it's not provided or condoned by Blizzard, ergo makes it TPS, which is forbidden in the EULA, so is streaming your game-play for money, FTR. As to the underlined section, botters are quoting you here, saying it's "not game breaking, it's just like I'm playing, it's too good to give up".
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This letter is about botting and botting is what the people who signed the letter, think that is the worst thing that is happening to the game. I'm glad so many people care about this issue and come to voice their opinion but i really don't understand why you have to disagree with something just because it doesn't fulfill your expectations by 100%... I think we as players in general are a bit spoiled and this attitude of all or nothing is actually pretty bad for us because i think that if this letter would have gained more support and less criticism because people are not satisfied with the fact that it doesn't address other things (that are unrelated imo, thud is unrelated to botting and is not the main issue here), then it would have had more chances at actually creating a change or forcing Blizzard to react, possibly in a bit of a more rushed manner (rushed doesn't have to be bad, just mobilizing resources to a certain direction).
- I'm not really sure what you expected? This is a letter about botting, it's been claimed that the entire community had a hand in this, much like it was claimed that the entire community is against paragon farming. However, if there were to be swift responses from Blizzard, I think, we as a community would prefer that it be towards ALL TPS, not just botters, but people who utilize exploitative progams and game-play to gain advantage over those who don't. Is it fair to say, we the community don't care about THUD, as much as we do botting? I think by this thread alone that answer is no.
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It's hard for people especially mods on this forum to please everyone. It's also hard to argue with 20 different people when it's one mod versus dozens of newcomers or old timers that are all arguing the same points over and over, often without reading what the mods have had to say in previous posts. It's also really stupid in my opinion how some people are offended by the claim that whoever is opposed to this letter is probably a botter because it's just a logical assumption and really, what did you expect? I think people need to lay off a bit and try to focus on the main issue here and that is the fact that D3 is turning into a complete bot fest and if you don't think it's true then i think you are either fooling yourself or just unaware of the magnitude of the problem.
- I don't think you understand, I've seen few objections to banning botters, and nobody is condoning botting, people are bantering on both sides. The issue is the standpoint on the subject at hand, not just the subject matter. The only few mods that are getting flak are the ones who made accusations that if you don't support this letter, you are a botter. Which, in the next statement, you are a botter, and you support this letter. So how is it that logically speaking, you can support this and be a botter, but I cannot comment to the contrary without being a botter? TPS is TPS, if you want to take a stand against something, and ask for a response on behalf of an entire community of people, get the facts straight first.
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TL:DR: I botted, i used Thud / D3helper whatever and i am in favor of all of those being limited and completely removed but some features of Thud need to stay until Blizzard implements UI modding support. Botting is the main issue here and diverting the focus from the main issue towards lesser issues like Thud is effectively a disservice to the community as a whole because expecting Thud to become "illegal" is simply unrealistic according to what we have seen in the past, and that does not apply to botting therefore this letter receives my (humble ) endorsement.
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I won't go the obvious route and run your opinion into the ground. You cheated, and are a cheater, so regardless if THUD and bots are managed, you'd still use them given the opportunity. Claiming to use them out of necessity is ridiculous. Nonetheless, claiming THUD has less to do with Leaderboard placement than botting is even more ridiculous. Yes, fishing, snap-shotting, gearing, paragons, and key tricks do some good, but nothing like a maphack and positional markers to help you not die to the sliver of animation you were standing in, or knowing where that really nasty Elite pack you're going to skip is. Finding a conduit pylon a few maps ahead. Countless times I've been in groups where after killing large or difficult packs, we'll find a pylon in the not-so-far distance that would have helped, but hey, if we were THUDing, we wouldn't have that issue, right?
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Your attitude breeds the idea that because cheats are available, everyone will use them. You say nobody is actually reading, but it's you that has not read. This is human nature, you're a cheater, therefor you will cheat, given the opportunity. Not all of us are wired that way
"Our letter and this thread is about botting. I don't think there are two different opinions about bots (unless you're a botter), something you cannot say about other issues."
Meanwhile by your own words those of us calling for ALL CHEATERS to be punished "are defending our botting". I have to say that is disappointing especially coming from you.
We're not talking about solutions to the problem, we're not talking about anything around the issue, we're talking about botting.
So whats your opinion on a solution? Paragon Cap in Season? Captcha like mentioned so often? Something else?
I*m realy interested to hear something additional than all this already mentioned stuff.
First off I don't know if there is a 100% viable solution to the problem since Blizzard has let it get so far out of hand as it stands today.
If Blizzard can truly detect Bots, and not just "bot like behavior" then at least we have a starting point. However if they just go after anyone who has 12 plus hours of playtime a day for example, then you could be banning a great number of legitimate players mistakenly. People go on binges with this game, they leave the game on and sit in menus for 6 hours, they enter and leave games repeatedly looking for the perfect grifts, they run endless rifts back to back with no let up except maybe a few minutes break. That can all be looked at as behavior that is "bot like". But the real question remains if their system in place can currently detect 3rd party programs playing the game, because if they cannot, then ZERO bans should be handed out.
Now, on the other side of the coin, if Blizzard CAN see that third party programs are reading memory, injecting any commands into the game, or anything else that these programs can do, then by all means, ban them. Ban them all. Any and every player that uses a 3rd party program.
Now for arguments sake, lets say they do not take that road. Lets say they realize that removing bots would severely impact their playerbase on a daily average. Lets say they find an alternate measure.
Assuming they can identify bot users, one "solution" if they choose not to undertake a massive ban wave would be to flag these players accounts, in a visible way that ANY and ALL players can see. Lets say a new icon like a player portrait that cannot be changed, or maybe an asterisk next to their name when they log in or a message to all players when they join a party. Another harsher alternative would be something that may be too difficult to implement, but lets say any player who has been VERIFIED of botting is restricted from joining public games. They can play on their own or with clan/friendslist players, HOWEVER, if a GRift is opened in a group, no player who is flagged can join with other people. They can make their own GRifts, and they can push high GRifts, but they will not appear on the leaderboards, but there will always be a way to tell if the person has been/is a bot user.
In addition, I think that the paragon system is simply out of hand. I think paragon should be harder to obtain, and be limited to 800 points in season. Non season should be unlimited, but for competitive play it is simply too powerful and provides too much of a bonus in damage. I have completed GRift 55 on my monk and will be slowly pushing it to 60 if I can, and for that I am proud. However there is ZERO chance of me competing with players who have 1300 or 1600 paragon levels. Cap it at 800 for seasons and it might also be time for an overhaul of the available pages/choices on the paragon system. That however is a different discussion.
Captcha systems would work to a point, but would also annoy a lot of legit players who simply get tired of entering it. Also, when would the captcha come up......Beginning, mid game, would it pause the game, would it come up in the middle of a boss fight, would it come up when you just killed the boss and have 10 seconds to turn in the rift ? Things could go worse because of them.
You wanted possible solutions. That would be mine.
PS - Nachten You mistakenly changed the part of my quote from Bagstone's name to Arydor. (I changed it back for you)
No idea why that happened, but lets keep the accusations with who actually said them.
"Bot like behaviour" isn't just spamming rifts all day, it's a series of actions that a human person manually playing the game wouldn't do. Example; Attempting to loot the same item for 5 minutes and can't because of a full inventory. You and I and all the other real boys out there realize after the first, or maybe 5th attempt that our inventory is full, and adapt, the bot would just continue to try until the command timed out.
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Blizzard doesn't shame ban people, never have, never will. In fact, if you ever hear that someone was banned, it's through player channels. Actually, funny turn of events, if you actually read the EULA, you'll laugh a little bit at Quin, Dat, Alk, and the other streamers who signed this letter. (If you understand, you can give a thumbs up.) But it states that Blizzard cannot shame ban you, they can terminate your account without reason, but they can't tell anybody what that reason is.
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Paragon is getting out of hand because it's the only thing of value to farm. Perfect Ancient gear is awesome, but once you've got all that, what do you do? Especially when you dedicate 8+ hours to the game.
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Thanks for the cheers, I'm not the one saying that anyone who disagrees is a botter
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<Informational poste only> =)
So whats your opinion on a solution? Paragon Cap in Season? Captcha like mentioned so often? Something else?
I*m realy interested to hear something additional than all this already mentioned stuff.
While this isn't the thread to poste it in, the solution is fairly simple from a technical standpoint. There is no ultimate solution. Botting will always be around, regardless of how many you cut down. Blizzard has proven they can target specific programs and in-game behaviours, using CAPTCHA would obviously increase the occurrence of banwaves, but it's like a cartoon bad guy, it'll keep coming back. My opinion to limit botting is to limit the game. Be it paragon levels, or a fatigue system in which you can only play for so long, I don't think we'll ever find a game that is 100% bot free, but games that allow you to spend endless hours grinding are where bots thrive. I'm not saying it's what's best for the game as a whole, but in the aspect of botting, there's only so much you can do.
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Limiting the game for the few who cheat isn't fair. It would be naive to assume that anything I, this community, the Blizzard technical team, or any other community can come up with will take down botting for good. The battle isn't just with botting, it's with human nature. Can cheat, will cheat, does cheat. Can cheat, won't cheat, doesn't cheat. Same topic could be applied to relationships, personal, romantic or work. You don't ban all 12 year olds from the gas and sip because one stole candybars, but you do install security cameras. CAPTCHA isn't the best option, because it can make incorrect assumptions, but if it would help, I'd take anything.
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To stay on point, the purpose of this thread isn't to come to a solution, but pleading Blizzard to find one. As well as bring awareness to, in my opinion, a farce of an open letter that 26 individuals put together. There are at least a dozen threads about solutions to botting. My point was that we talk about these things, so often, and that the laser point is that we are against botting as a community, but as has been discussed, many times, we are also against TPS. Why are we separating the two in an open letter? Why if they find a solution to botting will that blanket cover HUDs? Why is it taboo to clump TPS with TPS? How does that affect Blizzard's response? "If they respond to botting, they respond to THUD", technically, no they don't. I'll simply use Demonbuddy as an example, because I'm pretty sure it's done for good now. They got it, they got everyone using it, and still botting is an issue. Why? Because Blizzard targeted what it was doing, and flipped it. CAPTCHA, no CAPTCHA, doesn't matter, but they singled it out, and took care of it. It was changing memory, so it's not all that hard to target your own software, but they got it. I'm sure the same will happen when they get the other bots out there. So, when they took care of Demonbuddy, did they also get rid of THUD? Other bots? Was it a blanket enforcement of the EULA? No, so why then would I (or anyone else) assume that if they fix bot X, that THUD and all the other bots will just rollover? It makes me question the motives behind this letter and anyone who signed it.
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All I've seen are excuses and subterfuge, smoke and mirrors. So please explain, in fine detail why TPS is being so hush hush, yet botting is the main concern?
So let's make the letter about "cheating" so that whatever slim chance there was of Blizzard actually addressing it will be completely gone or replaced with stupid examples of actions taken by blizz against exploits and other irrelevant stuff. I think people need to get over their ego and i'm not talking about streamers only...
Sarcasm wins all debates right? It doesn't have to be aimed at "cheating" but the problems lay within the parameters of 'third-party software'. So the letter these 26 pillars of the community wrote could be written in that direction. It's not, because most of the signatories are third-party software users. Blizzard could even make an arguement that a website that times CoE is considered to be TPS. Not likely, but the arguement could be made, which would basically wipe the leaderboards completely.
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I have to say though, while they haven't addressed the botting issue as quickly as we'd all hope, fixing and punishing those involved in the Hellfire exploit shows they care. Acting as though it's irrelevant is childish. It was within thier power to do. Which logically speaks to the fact that they don't have a final solution to the bot problem. Would you prefer random bans to people who play more than 8 hours a day?
Not that I am against this idea, but doesn't it sort of remove the RNG from an RNG game? I mean, as you've stated, there is no loot/xp for doing these, so unless they cap paragons, aside from competing with your buddies (which you can already do on your 'friends' leaderboard) this really doesn't do anything for character advancement. All it does is give you a cookie cut rift in order to challenge your friends, in which 'highest paragon/best class' wins. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great, but that's alot of work for no gain, not exactly blizzard's style, if ya know what I mean.
(Double Edit:) If they cap paragons, this would be an amazing addition. If they cap time played availability, this would be the worst addition.
"Our letter and this thread is about botting. I don't think there are two different opinions about bots (unless you're a botter), something you cannot say about other issues."
Meanwhile by your own words those of us calling for ALL CHEATERS to be punished "are defending our botting". I have to say that is disappointing especially coming from you.
That's just it. These guys think they represent the entire community, and you're either on the band wagon, or you're a botter. Most of what I've read in this thread wasn't actually defending botting, as it is defending our own rights to speak, and pointing out the hypocritical signatories and thier motives. As well as (as you pointed out) the swaying of conversation away from those facts, and discrediting those who speak about thier motives. Sure there's a few in here who've asked, how do I sign? To which, there is no answer, because it's not a community letter, it's not even an open letter. Bagstone's own replies have been accusatory, and have stated that "No, once they deal with the fire, the building will fall down anyways."
We're not talking about solutions to the problem, we're not talking about anything around the issue, we're talking about botting. Again. For the hundredth time. These guys think because they're streamers (or free advertiser's for both right and wrong) or devs in sometimes useful websites, they should have a say in how the game is operated. Like an ant telling you what to pack for your picnic.
I want a resolution, but I don't want these egomaniacs to get anymore inflated, or they won't be able to fit on the servers, and server lag is bad enough.
1) Reported, and be glad you can hide behind a layer of anonymity on the internet, as your first sentence is quite the threat.
2) If you know of a better representative, please, by all means, come forth.
I get it, you're likely a botter. Keep it to yourself.
Thank you. as to 1) that you're fandom of the technicality and again, an inflated sense of your importance. It was not a threat, simply a statement. 2) As you quoted, a 'better' representative of the community would be an OPEN signature letter (where anyone can sign, not just you and your clique), which would be more well written than your current closed letter.
As to your third statement, I've never botted, nor do I keep botters on my list. I've never been banned or suspended for using any kind of exploit/bot/hack/hud, because I don't use them. I program, I enjoy coding, and I know the trials and tribulations that face any program that emulates a person playing a game. I'd go into more detail, but I don't think you'd understand most of the jargon.
The fact that you accuse me of being a botter could also indicate your condescendence towards the general community of D3. That because someone has a different opinion than yours, and disagrees with your motives behind doing something, and claiming to represent the D3 community as a whole, is met with condescendence and arrogance, that shows me, and other intelligent people that you either cannot defend your position, or that there are ulterior motives for doing it.
So again, Thank you.
"The top Rank 1 players", "the popular people", are the Devs on reddit and DF, and streamers people KNOW have cheated? You said it 3 or 4 times, that the "community as a whole" has been working on it... This is just inflated ego, how did you all fit in the same room? You don't represent even the largest MINORITY of playerbase, and yet you claim to represent us all? If it was a community based "petition" if you would, where would people get the opportunity to sign it? You have an inflated sense of your own importance, and it's sad. I honestly hope they figure out a way to do something, at least reduce the bleeding, but logically speaking, there is nothing that can be done.
Case in point: Runescape's "Anit-Botter" Godwatch program, where it literally watched the game world, and auto detected 'bot-like' behaviour. Well, that is until it banned 180,000 innocent people, and even after reveresed, destroyed over 350,000 items. I kind of have to laugh at the people, who in this forum, have openly admitted cheating (on purpose, or by defending botting as a reprieve to keep up with no-lifers). You know it's a constant cycle, the bottom 10% can't keep up with the top 90%, so they bot, then the bottom 30% starts botting to keep up with them, then the bottom 70% bots to keep up with them, and finally the top 1% starts botting to show off that they are the awesomest people ever.
I'll admit, read the first page and quit cycling, if anything interesting arose, maybe I'll go back...
First, 1 hour, isn't astronomical, but they've already posted a job listing for an art position for Diablo (Game and Project were mentioned, so it's either D4, or D3 expansion.) It also falls under the guidelines of space/time when you consider the rest of thier schedule.
Second, they also have Hearthstone, Starcraft. Legion, Heroes and Overwatch to tide most of Blizzcon, so why (bother) with talking about upcoming changes to Diablo if they're not in the mix until next year?
Third, Diablo at least gets a booth, with 4 tourney's going on, I didn't even expect that much. Unless they somehow came out with a D3 tourney of who can clear the highest GR in under an hour... not really exciting.
You're not a streamer or a Mod on a well-known D3 site are you? If not, no. Unless you've also been caught in some rediculous ploy to cheat/exploit/bot the game in which case that's apparently catered to.
Regardless if some of the names have used THUD or botted, they can still be against it and want the rules to be enforced. They don't have to be "pure and clean angels" to believe in banning botters. Trying to discredit what they are saying like that is called poisoning the well, and it's a childish rhetorical device, drop it.
Actually, it's not 'poisoning the well'. Hypocrisy is defined as "Claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform." which is exactly what, from my count, 10/26 are doing, and I haven't heard of the others... You can't have your cake and eat it too.
My real problem, with every single post about botting/cheating/exploiting/thudding is? It gives these malicious acts a face. While you think you're doing a good thing by making a community aware of a problem, you are FEEDING the problem. How many of those nasty botters heard about thier bots from these forums? Or the official Blizzard forums? Who knew what thudding was? Granted, they aren't hard to find once you start bringing up 'botting' and 'ros', a quick google search will do that for you, but you've now credited the site with informing the masses that it works. (The actual definition of poisoning the well' btw.)
The issue of botting is simple; can it be stopped? No. Why not? Because it's infectious. How do you know your best buddy isn't a botter? Ho many people have reaped the rewards of a botter without ever using one? What good is a banwave? Seasons reset your characters anyways, and even if you're not inclined to wait until the next season, people like Gabby just reload and keep on truckin. I don't agree that botting is good for the game, and I can agree with the sentiment of this open letter, but I would be alot more selective of who signs it, and what they actually represent.
(Side note and a little OT): Can we stop posting D3 has issues when you become the top 1%? Kuz that doesn't exactly represent but the smallest portion of the community.
First, you've summed up your opening statement with your closing statement. ALOT of builds rely heavily on Class sets in order to progress through the Torments and Grift levels.
The best advice that I can give with regards to gearing, is get yourself a Fulminator/Shaefer's Hammer and cube it with an AoE lightning build of any kind. Most builds, (Barb, Monk, DH, WD) rely on a strong defensive build with 1 or 2 insanely boosted attacks. Wizard, doesn't have a whole lot of defensive options that don't completely suck, without the proper support, unless the RNG gods love you.
With all of that in mind, I'd suggest getting your hands on a decent weapon with a valuable orange text and cube it, build your build around it until you get pieces you want for other builds. Also, you can opt for a more offensive build if you intend on doing a lot of group play, to make up for your lack of defensive maneuvers.
Just dont use Broken Promises. From a hardcore perspective I cant fathom why anyone would use this ring. You drop a lot of CHC on your gear to gain a bunch of mostly pretty useless stats. Lets see:
You lose VITA from head (impact low); LOH on wrists, LOH on bracers; either Dex/CHD/Ele on amulett and Dex/CHD on your rings.
First 3 points are worthless, you dont really notice the Vita; LOH is pretty worthless on the Uliana Build anyways; you can have like 2k Dex / equivalent of CHD/Elemental Dmg more if you use Broken Promises.
Ok fair point. But lets see what you can use for the Broken Promises:
In Group: Convention of Elements: straight forward 200% dmg buff every couple of secs
In Solo: another 50% dmg reduction by Unity
Im Running the spec without broken Promises atm, using unity. I have very crappy gear (non ancient weapons, therefore non ramaladni; etc) and i am pretty much invincible on GR50 and clear this pretty easily. Once ive levelled my gems and got the one or other ancient gear + more Paragons (currently 300) this easily goes to 53-55 and with ancient weapons probably Gr 60
The stats you've mentioned don't make sense?
With BP, you get another 8% CDR on at least 4 slots without sacrificing Vita on your gloves. Your bracers should roll with Ele dmg, dex, vit and regen. LoH scales terribly with U6, because SSS is only considered as 1 'hit'. Regen is also super highlighted until they nerf the healing support monk, which focuses on boosting your LPS to god areas. You can grab area dmg, %life, resist all, region, whatever you want to make up for what your build lacks. Removing CHC from you gear gives you MORE options to deal more damage and survive. SSS means you're invulnerable, so the more often you can do it, the more often you're outweighing Unity.
By maintaining BP at a 50%~ crit chance, without putting CHC on your gear, you can get up to 68.24% CDR. That is an SSS every 2-4 secs... and 560% CHD, Obviously these are perfect rolls, but those 2 stats combined are more valuable than 50% dmg reduction and an actual 50% crit chance.
To explain a little further;
With BP: 5% CHC, 560% CHD, 68.24% CDR, 40% Cold dmg. Effective DPS: 10,836,420/DMG Reduction: 49%.
W/O BP; 43% CHC, 560% CHD, 55.66% CDR, 40% Cold dmg. Effective DPS: 5,595,533/DMG Reduction: 75%.
So, 13% CDR loss, and half the Effective DPS, for 43% CHC, and 26%~ damage reduction?
The point really is: Don't try and time your process, grab up all the CDR you can and SSS on cooldown, then it won't matter what you're pushing, because you're immune to damage, and critting all the time.
This has all been Monk specific, but it applies to other classes as well. Even so, getting 68.24% CDR negates the need to get the IK's 4 set, which could be important to some Barb builds? Archon Wizard could become absolutely out of control with this setup, though BP is only 3 secs, and the pulse from Chantodo's is 1/sec. So maybe not useful there, maybe it will be... the point is, this ring is literally a 50% CHC w/o crit on your gear. Much similarly to the CoE which is 50% ele dmg increase, however, being able to use different pieces to make better builds via an obscene amount of CDR available, and not worry about CHC, makes BP more attractive.
I think the real point would be cubing a rider, and using a uskang for the slow ball build... not sure how much stronger it will be, but it's an overall increase over the current top build. Could even Yang/DML/Krider combos since UE still buffs EA when it's Kridered.
Depending on the meta, there are usually 2 DH's... so both going Calam is pointless. I've heard rumblings of a Hungering Arrow build emerging, but when I tried testing it, it fell flat, very flat. We'll see how this shake out after Tuesday.
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This isn't relevant. If you put as much time into tennis as Federer did, but he used steroids, then it would be comparable.
Your statement contradicts itself. If it's cheating and against the rules, then how would everybody using it make the game better? In the same point, how does botting not follow the same logical steps? (If everybody was botting, that levels the playing field for everybody), Agreed the UI could use an upgrade, but, to the point where I never take a wrong turn, I never stop to fight an elite pack long enough to figure out if I want to skip it? By that logic, the reverse is also possible, if everybody didn't use it (every d3 player) then it would improve the game. See how that works?
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It doesn't make sense to include Thud in this letter because as you said, almost if not all of the people who signed the letter actually use Thud (Including me, back when i used to play D3). It's too good to give up on while still not breaking the game imo. It's very different from botting, it's more like a reaction to Blizzard's horrible hard-coded UI implementation in D3. The lack of modding support is just really bad and the fact that people have Thud to compensate that is actually a good thing in my view. If Blizzard just works on a better minimap to include things like champion / elite packs that you have already encountered, then they could also make it so you can't read the minimap portion of the game off of the client's memory somehow... I think if Thud didn't have the maphack then it would have been more legit and awesome but the fact that it has some sort of a maphack makes its validity go down by quite a bit.
) endorsement.
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This is an issue with the Blizzard default UI, to which D3 was not opened to modding for the exact reason THUD provides a maphack. It's the source-code, when THUD reads the memory it displays everything, from my understanding, it was a non-intentional 'perk' when the code was finished. That being said, it does provide a map-hack, it's not provided or condoned by Blizzard, ergo makes it TPS, which is forbidden in the EULA, so is streaming your game-play for money, FTR. As to the underlined section, botters are quoting you here, saying it's "not game breaking, it's just like I'm playing, it's too good to give up".
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This letter is about botting and botting is what the people who signed the letter, think that is the worst thing that is happening to the game. I'm glad so many people care about this issue and come to voice their opinion but i really don't understand why you have to disagree with something just because it doesn't fulfill your expectations by 100%... I think we as players in general are a bit spoiled and this attitude of all or nothing is actually pretty bad for us because i think that if this letter would have gained more support and less criticism because people are not satisfied with the fact that it doesn't address other things (that are unrelated imo, thud is unrelated to botting and is not the main issue here), then it would have had more chances at actually creating a change or forcing Blizzard to react, possibly in a bit of a more rushed manner (rushed doesn't have to be bad, just mobilizing resources to a certain direction).
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I'm not really sure what you expected? This is a letter about botting, it's been claimed that the entire community had a hand in this, much like it was claimed that the entire community is against paragon farming. However, if there were to be swift responses from Blizzard, I think, we as a community would prefer that it be towards ALL TPS, not just botters, but people who utilize exploitative progams and game-play to gain advantage over those who don't. Is it fair to say, we the community don't care about THUD, as much as we do botting? I think by this thread alone that answer is no.
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It's hard for people especially mods on this forum to please everyone. It's also hard to argue with 20 different people when it's one mod versus dozens of newcomers or old timers that are all arguing the same points over and over, often without reading what the mods have had to say in previous posts. It's also really stupid in my opinion how some people are offended by the claim that whoever is opposed to this letter is probably a botter because it's just a logical assumption and really, what did you expect? I think people need to lay off a bit and try to focus on the main issue here and that is the fact that D3 is turning into a complete bot fest and if you don't think it's true then i think you are either fooling yourself or just unaware of the magnitude of the problem.
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I don't think you understand, I've seen few objections to banning botters, and nobody is condoning botting, people are bantering on both sides. The issue is the standpoint on the subject at hand, not just the subject matter. The only few mods that are getting flak are the ones who made accusations that if you don't support this letter, you are a botter. Which, in the next statement, you are a botter, and you support this letter. So how is it that logically speaking, you can support this and be a botter, but I cannot comment to the contrary without being a botter? TPS is TPS, if you want to take a stand against something, and ask for a response on behalf of an entire community of people, get the facts straight first.
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TL:DR: I botted, i used Thud / D3helper whatever and i am in favor of all of those being limited and completely removed but some features of Thud need to stay until Blizzard implements UI modding support. Botting is the main issue here and diverting the focus from the main issue towards lesser issues like Thud is effectively a disservice to the community as a whole because expecting Thud to become "illegal" is simply unrealistic according to what we have seen in the past, and that does not apply to botting therefore this letter receives my (humble
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I won't go the obvious route and run your opinion into the ground. You cheated, and are a cheater, so regardless if THUD and bots are managed, you'd still use them given the opportunity. Claiming to use them out of necessity is ridiculous. Nonetheless, claiming THUD has less to do with Leaderboard placement than botting is even more ridiculous. Yes, fishing, snap-shotting, gearing, paragons, and key tricks do some good, but nothing like a maphack and positional markers to help you not die to the sliver of animation you were standing in, or knowing where that really nasty Elite pack you're going to skip is. Finding a conduit pylon a few maps ahead. Countless times I've been in groups where after killing large or difficult packs, we'll find a pylon in the not-so-far distance that would have helped, but hey, if we were THUDing, we wouldn't have that issue, right?
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Your attitude breeds the idea that because cheats are available, everyone will use them. You say nobody is actually reading, but it's you that has not read. This is human nature, you're a cheater, therefor you will cheat, given the opportunity. Not all of us are wired that way
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"Bot like behaviour" isn't just spamming rifts all day, it's a series of actions that a human person manually playing the game wouldn't do. Example; Attempting to loot the same item for 5 minutes and can't because of a full inventory. You and I and all the other real boys out there realize after the first, or maybe 5th attempt that our inventory is full, and adapt, the bot would just continue to try until the command timed out.
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Blizzard doesn't shame ban people, never have, never will. In fact, if you ever hear that someone was banned, it's through player channels. Actually, funny turn of events, if you actually read the EULA, you'll laugh a little bit at Quin, Dat, Alk, and the other streamers who signed this letter. (If you understand, you can give a thumbs up.) But it states that Blizzard cannot shame ban you, they can terminate your account without reason, but they can't tell anybody what that reason is.
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Paragon is getting out of hand because it's the only thing of value to farm. Perfect Ancient gear is awesome, but once you've got all that, what do you do? Especially when you dedicate 8+ hours to the game.
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Thanks for the cheers, I'm not the one saying that anyone who disagrees is a botter
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<Informational poste only> =)
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Limiting the game for the few who cheat isn't fair. It would be naive to assume that anything I, this community, the Blizzard technical team, or any other community can come up with will take down botting for good. The battle isn't just with botting, it's with human nature. Can cheat, will cheat, does cheat. Can cheat, won't cheat, doesn't cheat. Same topic could be applied to relationships, personal, romantic or work. You don't ban all 12 year olds from the gas and sip because one stole candybars, but you do install security cameras. CAPTCHA isn't the best option, because it can make incorrect assumptions, but if it would help, I'd take anything.
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To stay on point, the purpose of this thread isn't to come to a solution, but pleading Blizzard to find one. As well as bring awareness to, in my opinion, a farce of an open letter that 26 individuals put together. There are at least a dozen threads about solutions to botting. My point was that we talk about these things, so often, and that the laser point is that we are against botting as a community, but as has been discussed, many times, we are also against TPS. Why are we separating the two in an open letter? Why if they find a solution to botting will that blanket cover HUDs? Why is it taboo to clump TPS with TPS? How does that affect Blizzard's response? "If they respond to botting, they respond to THUD", technically, no they don't. I'll simply use Demonbuddy as an example, because I'm pretty sure it's done for good now. They got it, they got everyone using it, and still botting is an issue. Why? Because Blizzard targeted what it was doing, and flipped it. CAPTCHA, no CAPTCHA, doesn't matter, but they singled it out, and took care of it. It was changing memory, so it's not all that hard to target your own software, but they got it. I'm sure the same will happen when they get the other bots out there. So, when they took care of Demonbuddy, did they also get rid of THUD? Other bots? Was it a blanket enforcement of the EULA? No, so why then would I (or anyone else) assume that if they fix bot X, that THUD and all the other bots will just rollover? It makes me question the motives behind this letter and anyone who signed it.
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All I've seen are excuses and subterfuge, smoke and mirrors. So please explain, in fine detail why TPS is being so hush hush, yet botting is the main concern?
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Sarcasm wins all debates right? It doesn't have to be aimed at "cheating" but the problems lay within the parameters of 'third-party software'. So the letter these 26 pillars of the community wrote could be written in that direction. It's not, because most of the signatories are third-party software users. Blizzard could even make an arguement that a website that times CoE is considered to be TPS. Not likely, but the arguement could be made, which would basically wipe the leaderboards completely.
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I have to say though, while they haven't addressed the botting issue as quickly as we'd all hope, fixing and punishing those involved in the Hellfire exploit shows they care. Acting as though it's irrelevant is childish. It was within thier power to do. Which logically speaks to the fact that they don't have a final solution to the bot problem. Would you prefer random bans to people who play more than 8 hours a day?
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Not that I am against this idea, but doesn't it sort of remove the RNG from an RNG game? I mean, as you've stated, there is no loot/xp for doing these, so unless they cap paragons, aside from competing with your buddies (which you can already do on your 'friends' leaderboard) this really doesn't do anything for character advancement. All it does is give you a cookie cut rift in order to challenge your friends, in which 'highest paragon/best class' wins. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great, but that's alot of work for no gain, not exactly blizzard's style, if ya know what I mean.
(Double Edit:) If they cap paragons, this would be an amazing addition. If they cap time played availability, this would be the worst addition.
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We're not talking about solutions to the problem, we're not talking about anything around the issue, we're talking about botting. Again. For the hundredth time. These guys think because they're streamers (or free advertiser's for both right and wrong) or devs in sometimes useful websites, they should have a say in how the game is operated. Like an ant telling you what to pack for your picnic.
I want a resolution, but I don't want these egomaniacs to get anymore inflated, or they won't be able to fit on the servers, and server lag is bad enough.
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Thank you. as to 1) that you're fandom of the technicality and again, an inflated sense of your importance. It was not a threat, simply a statement. 2) As you quoted, a 'better' representative of the community would be an OPEN signature letter (where anyone can sign, not just you and your clique), which would be more well written than your current closed letter.
As to your third statement, I've never botted, nor do I keep botters on my list. I've never been banned or suspended for using any kind of exploit/bot/hack/hud, because I don't use them. I program, I enjoy coding, and I know the trials and tribulations that face any program that emulates a person playing a game. I'd go into more detail, but I don't think you'd understand most of the jargon.
The fact that you accuse me of being a botter could also indicate your condescendence towards the general community of D3. That because someone has a different opinion than yours, and disagrees with your motives behind doing something, and claiming to represent the D3 community as a whole, is met with condescendence and arrogance, that shows me, and other intelligent people that you either cannot defend your position, or that there are ulterior motives for doing it.
So again, Thank you.
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Case in point: Runescape's "Anit-Botter" Godwatch program, where it literally watched the game world, and auto detected 'bot-like' behaviour. Well, that is until it banned 180,000 innocent people, and even after reveresed, destroyed over 350,000 items. I kind of have to laugh at the people, who in this forum, have openly admitted cheating (on purpose, or by defending botting as a reprieve to keep up with no-lifers). You know it's a constant cycle, the bottom 10% can't keep up with the top 90%, so they bot, then the bottom 30% starts botting to keep up with them, then the bottom 70% bots to keep up with them, and finally the top 1% starts botting to show off that they are the awesomest people ever.
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I'll admit, read the first page and quit cycling, if anything interesting arose, maybe I'll go back...
First, 1 hour, isn't astronomical, but they've already posted a job listing for an art position for Diablo (Game and Project were mentioned, so it's either D4, or D3 expansion.) It also falls under the guidelines of space/time when you consider the rest of thier schedule.
Second, they also have Hearthstone, Starcraft. Legion, Heroes and Overwatch to tide most of Blizzcon, so why (bother) with talking about upcoming changes to Diablo if they're not in the mix until next year?
Third, Diablo at least gets a booth, with 4 tourney's going on, I didn't even expect that much. Unless they somehow came out with a D3 tourney of who can clear the highest GR in under an hour... not really exciting.
Enjoy Blizzcon, it's Blizzcon, not Diablocon.
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You're not a streamer or a Mod on a well-known D3 site are you? If not, no. Unless you've also been caught in some rediculous ploy to cheat/exploit/bot the game in which case that's apparently catered to.
Actually, it's not 'poisoning the well'. Hypocrisy is defined as "Claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform." which is exactly what, from my count, 10/26 are doing, and I haven't heard of the others... You can't have your cake and eat it too.
My real problem, with every single post about botting/cheating/exploiting/thudding is? It gives these malicious acts a face. While you think you're doing a good thing by making a community aware of a problem, you are FEEDING the problem. How many of those nasty botters heard about thier bots from these forums? Or the official Blizzard forums? Who knew what thudding was? Granted, they aren't hard to find once you start bringing up 'botting' and 'ros', a quick google search will do that for you, but you've now credited the site with informing the masses that it works. (The actual definition of poisoning the well' btw.)
The issue of botting is simple; can it be stopped? No. Why not? Because it's infectious. How do you know your best buddy isn't a botter? Ho many people have reaped the rewards of a botter without ever using one? What good is a banwave? Seasons reset your characters anyways, and even if you're not inclined to wait until the next season, people like Gabby just reload and keep on truckin. I don't agree that botting is good for the game, and I can agree with the sentiment of this open letter, but I would be alot more selective of who signs it, and what they actually represent.
(Side note and a little OT): Can we stop posting D3 has issues when you become the top 1%? Kuz that doesn't exactly represent but the smallest portion of the community.
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First, you've summed up your opening statement with your closing statement. ALOT of builds rely heavily on Class sets in order to progress through the Torments and Grift levels.
The best advice that I can give with regards to gearing, is get yourself a Fulminator/Shaefer's Hammer and cube it with an AoE lightning build of any kind. Most builds, (Barb, Monk, DH, WD) rely on a strong defensive build with 1 or 2 insanely boosted attacks. Wizard, doesn't have a whole lot of defensive options that don't completely suck, without the proper support, unless the RNG gods love you.
With all of that in mind, I'd suggest getting your hands on a decent weapon with a valuable orange text and cube it, build your build around it until you get pieces you want for other builds. Also, you can opt for a more offensive build if you intend on doing a lot of group play, to make up for your lack of defensive maneuvers.
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The stats you've mentioned don't make sense?
With BP, you get another 8% CDR on at least 4 slots without sacrificing Vita on your gloves. Your bracers should roll with Ele dmg, dex, vit and regen. LoH scales terribly with U6, because SSS is only considered as 1 'hit'. Regen is also super highlighted until they nerf the healing support monk, which focuses on boosting your LPS to god areas. You can grab area dmg, %life, resist all, region, whatever you want to make up for what your build lacks. Removing CHC from you gear gives you MORE options to deal more damage and survive. SSS means you're invulnerable, so the more often you can do it, the more often you're outweighing Unity.
By maintaining BP at a 50%~ crit chance, without putting CHC on your gear, you can get up to 68.24% CDR. That is an SSS every 2-4 secs... and 560% CHD, Obviously these are perfect rolls, but those 2 stats combined are more valuable than 50% dmg reduction and an actual 50% crit chance.
To explain a little further;
With BP: 5% CHC, 560% CHD, 68.24% CDR, 40% Cold dmg. Effective DPS: 10,836,420/DMG Reduction: 49%.
W/O BP; 43% CHC, 560% CHD, 55.66% CDR, 40% Cold dmg. Effective DPS: 5,595,533/DMG Reduction: 75%.
So, 13% CDR loss, and half the Effective DPS, for 43% CHC, and 26%~ damage reduction?
The point really is: Don't try and time your process, grab up all the CDR you can and SSS on cooldown, then it won't matter what you're pushing, because you're immune to damage, and critting all the time.
This has all been Monk specific, but it applies to other classes as well. Even so, getting 68.24% CDR negates the need to get the IK's 4 set, which could be important to some Barb builds? Archon Wizard could become absolutely out of control with this setup, though BP is only 3 secs, and the pulse from Chantodo's is 1/sec. So maybe not useful there, maybe it will be... the point is, this ring is literally a 50% CHC w/o crit on your gear. Much similarly to the CoE which is 50% ele dmg increase, however, being able to use different pieces to make better builds via an obscene amount of CDR available, and not worry about CHC, makes BP more attractive.
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I think the real point would be cubing a rider, and using a uskang for the slow ball build... not sure how much stronger it will be, but it's an overall increase over the current top build. Could even Yang/DML/Krider combos since UE still buffs EA when it's Kridered.
Depending on the meta, there are usually 2 DH's... so both going Calam is pointless. I've heard rumblings of a Hungering Arrow build emerging, but when I tried testing it, it fell flat, very flat. We'll see how this shake out after Tuesday.