DiabloFans

Quote from "Kenzai" »

Watched half of the thing.

That's not good...

Is the only thing he says through the interwiev "People cant say Blizz what D3 looks like!"?

No, he says more than that.

Warning, hyperbole:

So if Blizz decides to put MickyMouse in D3 as a boss, we cant complain?

You still don't get it do you? No one said that you can't complain, but they are saying that it is arrogant to assume that Diablo needs to be changed into what you personally envision it as.

Even though im fully serious with what i said there, i know people will ignore it just because... "hyperbole".

Exactly. Your points rely on exaggerations that make them moot. Mickey Mouse is not the level of bad that you people are complaining about. You're complaining about a game in which you've seen barely anything, and you're complaining about lighting and armor design in a microscopic way that seems inflated and premature at this point from what we've seen of the game.

So serious now: If they want to f' around with how Diablo looks, fine. But complaints about it are unavoidable. Them saying something like that would be just like accepting that they dont plan to stay true to Diablo.

In your eyes. In mine they've taken the series to the next level.

Some random things i would like to see:
- More "realistic" equipment models. And i dont say equipment of the barb (an example) should be like real-life armor. But it should be "immersive". The current ones will clearly bang on his head if he moves his head. Or like VegasRage said: The female barb better doesnt shrug her shoulders.
- Better models for environmental objects. Those chairs and tables could be a lot more kickass. They somehow look like toys imo, and there are more people who dislike them.
- Better animations for spells and item glow. Its a bit too big. A slight glow or buzz could be kickass, but seeing the full power of the element when it first hits the monster (kinda like in the previous games) is really kickass and doesnt have a chance of affecting the credibility.
- Contrast between monster and environment could be better. This will hopefully be better thatnks to blood and corpses staying longer. But even before we start slaughtering, the place should be a bit dirty.
- The green dungeon is kinda weird and doesnt really create a good atmosphere.

They are changing the dungeons to add even more grit. They won't be changing the armor or lighting. They won't be making most of those changes. But I bet once you see the final game you'll see a darker game than you thought previously. I bet you'll be surprised.

Quote from "VegasRage" »

I don't recall seeing half the complaint's about D2 that I have on D3

That was a different era. An era of less whiny internet folly. Blizzard wasn't as popular. Gamers weren't as jaded.

And guess what?

Wilson has said himself that he recalls people complaining that D2 was way too bright and colorful as well upon release.

Quote from "Doppelganger" »

Maybe so, but your reasoning to make that conclusion is as flawed as ever, wich i damn well made clear.

Hahaha, "explained", sure.

Right, except that you didn't have any argument to begin with, wich was the whole purpose of my reply. Good job at failing, again.

"Denied our chance to change D3?" Wtf are you on about?

Funny cause half the people agreeing with your dumb fuckery do. You're guilty by assosiation, its so unjust.

Wut? Art direction =/ quality? You fail.

If i say "yes", what you gonna do about it? Cry and deny some more?

No, YOU don't give a shit. Wich makes you stupid.

Wow, we're getting somewhere. My job is done here, i'm not interested in the rest of your ignorance.

Not a single argument above. Nothing. You do realize that stamping your foot and saying that I fail over and over again doesn't make it so, right? In fact, it makes it look like you don't have anything real to respond with. I'm reporting you and putting you on ignore. :thumbsup:

Quote from "Doppelganger" »

Funny connotations you make there, implying that because many people complain, especially on the internet, it "obviously" makes them not give an insight. I don't have to spell it out for you, do i? Nah, i think my analogy was dead-on.

I said it before and I'll say it again: I was referring to the posts where multiple people explained why the petition was not a good source for how many people are not in favor of the art direction. I never said that people complaining = they are wrong. If you could take the time to comprehend instead of trying to convince yourself you are right we could avoid this conversation. Put things in context like a big boy before you make such blatant personal attacks.

Ugh, i'm getting tired of rephrasing and restating peoples stances. It already got changed, people don't like it, obvious, YES?
So i ask you, what exactly was the basis for the change anyways? (and i hope to dear god you use "sales", like i expect someone as empty as you would)

Wilson explained why the changes were made and many, many people have explained it to you. If you don't get it by now then you aren't worth explaining it to - again.

For fucks sake, do i have to spell it out again? Are you again reasoning that just because it isn't a 100% accurate (hell, i even make it 75%) it doesn't have ANY basis for truth?

Go ahead and pull percentages out your butt. We'll see if an actual argument comes from it... oh lookie,...nothing. Again.

Your hysterical try at denial (and Blizzards for that matter) just makes the petition carry more weight and all the more valid. (otherwise there wouldn't be that need to deny it over and over and over and over again, in each and every interview, or discussion).

The only thing that was denied was you and other signers of the petition. Denyed your chance to change D3 into your personal vision.

I never said that those people do not give a fuck, i said that they "supposedly" don't give a fuck, as in "they act as if they don't give a fuck", probably because "they are fine with how it looks".

WAHHHHHH! Leave your angry arguments with other people from other threads out of this discussion. I don't care what you think about people who care more about gameplay than graphics.

I know its a exageration, but the analogy itself tells you that "sales" never EVER is a reason to argue "quality", especially not "quality in art".
You are also confusing "sales don't matter" when it comes to quality and how it seems quality DID seem to suffer, BECAUSE OF potential sales. But i suspect you are in a semantical denial stage because you basically argue like this: "i get told that "a" doesn't matter because of "b", but the "SAME" people tell me it does matter because of "c", PARADOX!". Nope, thats just extreme failure.

We're not arguing quality. We are arguing art direction. So your analogy is invalid. Again I ask: Does an inflated petition that people can sign as much as they want warrant changing the art direction of a game?

Redirect me to the petition or "poll" that made D3 change in the first place. Oh wait, right, they lost by "two thirds". *roll eyes*

No one gives a shit.

Then why is it so hard to accept "Diablo used to be different" too, and people don't like "how it is now" for obvious reasons?

It's not hard to accept. Who said they didn't except that Diablo has changed? Do you even plan things out before you type or are you just going to argue every single random thing you can make up into the ground like a troll without a purpose?

Thanks for taking a huge troll dump on this thread.

Quote from "avanent" »

I am well aware that the things change in diablo 3 are in other games as well. However, they were not in the diablo series, and are in wow. So, between the two titles, it has moved toward wow.

Above is a claim that Diablo has been changed in accordance to WoW. And then, in the same post no less, you say...

I never argued diablo 3's developemt has been centered around WoW.

Heh.

I argued they've ajusted the visual style, and taken a few other various qualities, found in wow to create a more unified style in their titles; and thats its effect which could draw on their separate fanbases into a more unified fanbase and really cash in off of it. Some people think its good, some people think its bad.

And I was referring to the visual style you were speaking of. And I argued that Diablo wasn't changed to incorporate WoW's style, but in accordance with Blizzard in general. That much is obvious too as I have proof supporting the claim and you don't. You have only assumption. Blizzard makes their games look a certain way graphically to give them longevity. Because today's best graphics are tomorrow's outdated trash. So stylized, good looking graphics tend to give a title more longevity. It's not about copying WoW.

You are blinded by your fanaticism creepsville. It doesnt matter if people prove you wrong, it doesn't matter what people say. No one can be right but you. You only see what you want to see, regarding the game and peoples opinions.

Ad hominem attack of a guy with no argument. Call me a fanatic if you think it will help your cause. You're the one being proven wrong over and over to the point of personally attacking me. I'm sorry I won't sit back and let you make up BS about why Diablo looks the way it does. It's just my way. When I see people running wild with theories and BS I tend to call them out.

And I don't get why people who signed the petition like to call other people blind followers and fanatics. We are gamers too and we have a critical eye just like you do for every game we enjoy. We just aren't as petty and whinny about it as you guys are.

There is an intelligent way to discuss matters, and you are very far from it. Your conduct taints anything you state.

Personal. I laid into you in a mature and thoughtful manner. You can only respond with things like this? Too bad.

Health orbs allow me to keep playing and using my multiple abilities. They are basically a potion I would have used anyway minus the hassle. They also won't clog up my inventory.

I can't wait to see how it translates into gameplay.

Quote from "avanent" »

Actually, no, none of that is made up. You can say they are all just coincidental correlations if you'd like and that you disagree with my deductions from them. However, those are not made up.

Alright. I've had enough of your theorycrafting. Actually, I've had enough of your theorycrafting and then telling yourself that you didn't make anything up. It's gone over the line into delusional territory now.

That would be part of opinion wouldn't it? I look at SC and i see some brighter colors, yes, but for the most part, each race seems to retain its identity. The game seems to inhabit similar planets. The unit and building design seems pretty similar and very linear from SC.

Drop the opinion game. I am clear when I state my opinion. I don't try to pass it off as fact as you do. That was the point I made.

Diablo 3, on the other hand, has taken the spell/ability bar, has taken the bag system, has taken the one slot inventory system, has introduced brighter and more saturated colors in greater amount, has gotten rid of light radius, has lightened the atmosphere and took on a more cartoonish style, and has arbitrary colored lighting.

Once again - those things are not WoW only in practice. There are a lot of other RPGS with these things. Once again you place WoW in the picture instead of seeing the big picture.

For me, SC is truer to the original than diablo 3 is true to its predecessors.

Again - I've already shown that is a subjective statement and that D3 is a different game that may require more changes than SC2 as a sequel.

Is this the problem? You think this is what im saying? Let me tell you, it isn't. Which I already strongly alluded to, by the way.

More like you edited your post. Either way it's still wrong to assume that Blizzard chose thier art style for D3 around the success of a previous title. If they were that strong minded about capitalizing on the success of a previous title we'd have World of Sanctuary.

Quote from "Doppelganger" »

A GIANT STRAW MAN!

I'm doing a cliffs notes response as you clearly didn't understand more than half of what I said and opted to rehash the same tired arguments that you use in every thread:

- Your statements about the black cat and people who complain being wrong have nothing to do with my reasoning. They were made up by you so that you can straw man.

- After people brought up that the petition stats could have been artificially inflated I asked if that was good enough basis for change in a high production value game. After many people explained in previous posts in this thread how the petition probably isn't accurate it's beyond me that you still stand by it as some sort of document of truth. It is dirty. To change a game based on dirty stats of an online petition is ridiculous.

- Your comment about how people who don't like the petition don't care for the art style and only about gameplay does not apply to me. I care about the art style. I feel they did fine with the art. Moving on.

- The mattel toys analogy is silly as it becomes a tirade about RIGHT and WRONG! Heh. It doesn't apply to what I said. Does a dirty petition mean that game sales will be effected? I'm confused because I keep getting told that sales don't matter and then I get told by the same people that sales do matter to the point to where they make their game look like another successful game they've made...

- More like "better" is relative and subjective. Does Diablo 3 need to change based on the stats of an inflated online petition? Would you change your game if a petition like this popped up?

A GIANT RANT.

- I know that Blizzard used to be different in the past. I'm talking about how they are now.

- You took my response to avanent out of context. I stand by what I said as you didn't make any real comprehensible point. To say that Blizzard changed the Diablo art style to make it look like WoW is ignoring Blizzard's other games and art styles as a company and is therefore ignorant.

That's his vagina.

Quote from "avanent" »

right... well, we do know that wow has outsold every previous blizzard game and has the largest gaming subscription out there. We do know that much of the wow fanbase has not been involved in the diablo series. We do know that blizzard could make alot of money if it expanded the diablo fanbase to include wow-players. And we do know that d3's new visual style is similar to wow's. Call it what you will, but it looks like a spade to me.
Designed around and altering visual style in acordance are different statements.

Once again - you made that up. Just look at yourself rambling out why Diablo has the art style it does. It requires some major imagination. It couldn't possibly be that,...gasp! Blizzard has an art style because of their art department!!! No way! It's about WoW! Seriously, stop trying to convince yourself and admit that you don't know that D3 changed its style based on WoWs look.

facts?

Yup. Some people complained about SC2 not changing enough. That's a fact. I've talked with friends about it. They told me that they weren't too excited for the game now. So I showed you that your bullshit about liking SC2 because it's "truer" to SC1 can go both ways. Sometimes a game should change in order to better itself.

your opinion


their opinion



your opinion

When I say something is your opinion, I'm showing that it is not a factual statement, but rather something that is based on your personal tastes. When you say something is my opinion, however, it seems like you are ether pointing out the obvious in some commentary that I added to the end of an argument or you have no real argument to bring yourself.

I feel like I've shown you that you don't know what you are talking about fairly well, so I think I'm done hearing you play make-believe and rationalize out how Blizzard designed D3 around WoW in order to win over people even though you yourself said that the BLIZZARD name could sell dog crap. If Blizz can sell crap based off their company name, then why do they have to change D3 to be WoWish in order to make a sale again? Kinda contradicting yourself I'd say.

... maybe...

not...

But that is interesting.

The hired underlings shown in the gameplay video shot arrows though.

Quote from "avanent" »

Blizzard can sell a flaming bag of dog crap if they wanted to because of the name they made for themselves.

That doesn't mean that they will sell a flaming bag of dog crap.

A significant portion of the wow population has not played the diablo series. If you can peak their interest in the game by merging art styles, the profit could be vastly increased. Blizzard knows this, and to deny that is absolutely foolish. With the change in diablo's visual style, to claim they aren't acting on this as well is... silly.

Call it what you want. It is far more "silly" to keep making such huge assumptions and claims even after someone points out that you are just plain making things up. Stop trying to convince yourself that you are right and admit that you just plain don't know anything other than what Jay Wilson has told us about the art style choices. We don't know that Blizzard is designing D3 around WoW. If they were we'd be getting an MMO out of D3 instead of another Hack n' Slash, Action RPG. Whether you continue to argue this or not I think that we both know that your claims are made up at best and you will keep defending them as they constitute some sort of reason to keep criticizing D3 in your mind.

opinion.
There can be a fine line in game development from changing the right amount, and changing too much. Too many big changes can make titles loose a cohesive style in the series.

So now me telling you some facts about something is my opinion, eh? Well what I said above is true. If you are more attracted to a game because it barely changes them that's your thing. Not every game evolves the same way. Nothing states that D3 should evolve in the same fashion as an RTS game made by the same developer.

Quote from "avanent" »

Um... with the level of influence, and the lack of proof otherwise, I dont see how it could be refuted that the influence is a tactic to increase the monetary income the title will provide.

Ohhh you don't see, huh? How about like this: There is no proof. To make such a claim is assumption. It is based off of exaggeration and opinion. It is based off of the idea that WoW is the game that is dictating Blizzard's art style for it's current games. it is based off the assumption that Blizzard makes it's games around the idea that they only want money. With Blizzard's track record so far, one can gather that Blizzard does not make games for the money, but more-so for the love of it. If they did make games for the money then we would have Diablo part 6 right now. Think EA games.

Now here is another problem - do you really think that Diablo needs to change it's style to sell more units? Think about it. The Diablo name alone will sell units. Changing the art style to match another game would actually be detrimental to sales as the game would seem to match too closely another game sold by Blizzard. If you think that the Diablo name alone won't sell units and that they had to change the game to MATCH another game they've made then I pity you.

Starcraft 2 retains much more of its identity than diablo 3 seems to. In addition, the starcraft team has decided to stay even truer to the starcraft look due to fan request. Blizzard may be developing a unified art style for their titles now, but if you look at their previous titles, this is not the case.

Starcraft 2 is still blizzards art style, regardless of fans whining about the colors. End of story. What you consider "truer" to the past is opinion. In fact, some have complained that SC2 is TOO MUCH like the original, making it not a powerful enough successor to SC1 to spark their interest. What's interesting about D3 is that it seems to be a much larger evolution to the franchise while still remaining true to what made it great when compared to SC2.

Quote from "avanent" »

Even if you have people over inflating it, there are obviously a good number of people who dislike the art style. Individuals could, and may have, inflate the pro-petition as well. They have the same potential of being inaccurate in the same ways. Granted, a confirmation email to a unique email address would aid things, I dont know why the petition sites havnt wised up to that.

With the internet, especially these days, there will almost always be a good number of people complaining about something. Search and ye shall find. So we all know that the petition doesn't really give us a clean insight into Blizzard's faults with Diablo 3. That much is obvious. So should we assume that many people are unhappy enough with Diablo 3 to matter to game sales? Or to matter to changing the art direction? Basically - does the petition prove that D3 needs to be changed?

opinion. Blizzard could equally be argued as selfish for choosing a style closer resembling WoW(8+ million subscribers) than a style more true to the original diablo.

I think that argument is nearly nonexistent. It relies on the idea that the development team sat down, devated, and then decided that in order to make loads of cash that they needed to imitate one of their own games. There is no proof.

There is proof that Blizzard has it's own art style though. And that their current games are dictated by said art style. If you want to say that it is WoWs art style then you are disregarding Blizzards art style and placing it only on a single game. Secondly, you are also disregarding that the concept art for D3 looks very different from that of WoW's. These games are different enough to me, but to lump them together is just plain ignorance.

Could you imagine if we looked at all forms of story telling with such an eye of scrutiny? The barbarian's shoulder pads are too big?

It's like Frank Miller said :

"People are attempting to bring a superficial reality to superheroes which is rather stupid. They work best as the flamboyant fantasies they are. I mean, these are characters that are broad and big. I don't need to see sweat patches under Superman's arms. I want to see him fly."

Who gives a shit if the barbarian can't itch themselves realistically while wearing huge fantasy armor. There isn't a fucking itch button in D3. There's a KILL button and that's all we need. That's the game. That's the fantasy of it all. Either suspend your disbelief and enjoy it or go play some bore of a game where they spent hours on end arguing about how realistic everything needed to be to the point to where their game turned into a cess pool of suckage.

Blizzard telling the petiioners that the game won't be changing makes the petition worthless though.