Excluding the chain from the Maximus's slave, total DPS against elites would be as follows:
Furnace = 5677.05 (due to 58% elite bonus) VS Ancient Maximus = 4778.5 (obviously fire only for maximus). Then you have to minus off the .15 AS boost for the maximus which is redundant and artificially inflates the DPS of the maximus if used for FC. So its DPS would be even less again for FC. However, the maximus does have another 378 str, but this isnt enough to get it even close to the Furnace, even if you roll up the % damage from 7 to 10%.
Also, Furnace opens up the possibility of using physical which will give you a "double dip" of bloodshed, yet another reason that Furnace would be better.
In summary, Furnace good, ancient maximus not as good.
Cheers
CC123
Why exclude the chain? It's a decently big part of what makes Maximus good for Barbs, who struggle with single target damage. Pretty sure that the Maximus with Frenzy down almost anything faster then the Furnace.
Furnace is probably the better choice overall. And as a bonus you're not forced into fire.
I excluded the chain as the slave tends to die very quickly in higher Grifts which makes the feature almost useless. The two common solutions to STD are COTA (which performs better with a Furnace than Maximus with a slave that dies easily in higher Grifts) and/or party with DHs/ZDPS sader or WD. Frenzy doesnt factor in at all if your attempting Grift 43 plus as its DPS is too low (ancients do twice the damage each or more) and you get one shot too easily by RGs as your standing on their feet.
But this is off topic. For more info on what gets you to Grift 45 plus, check the D3 barb forums. Look for posts from Baconinja, Samir, Tao, Shadow, Page etc who are hitting the upper 40s solo or 50s in groups.
Just to be clear, CC123Aus, about the comments on Maximus dps being "fire only" you mean that %dmg to fire affects the fire chain right? AFAIK the damage range of the weapon being fire doesn't have any relevance when considering builds, since the runes themselves dictate the damage type and they "overwrite" the weapon damage type and thus you can go with physical build using weapon with avg damage being fire.
IRT the fire only question, not sure about the chain but I imagine the answer is yes. Im also refering to the fire % elemental bonus. Not the element of the weapon DPS its self, in which your correct, the rune picks the element.
F.Y.I the reason our weapons still roll with an element for the DPS is a D3 vanilla PTR (before the game lauched) legacy. In a dev interview they stated your weapon was going to decide the element, but they thought this would add an unnecessary extra level of RNG so they decided to come up with the current rune system but didnt remove the old one fully. Just unplugged its rune effect and not the animation if that makes sense.
Excluding the chain from the Maximus's slave, total DPS against elites would be as follows:
Furnace = 5677.05 (due to 58% elite bonus) VS Ancient Maximus = 4778.5 (obviously fire only for maximus). Then you have to minus off the .15 AS boost for the maximus which is redundant and artificially inflates the DPS of the maximus if used for FC. So its DPS would be even less again for FC. However, the maximus does have another 378 str, but this isnt enough to get it even close to the Furnace, even if you roll up the % damage from 7 to 10%.
Also, Furnace opens up the possibility of using physical which will give you a "double dip" of bloodshed, yet another reason that Furnace would be better.
In summary, Furnace good, ancient maximus not as good.
I should also mention this applies to EQ/Physical WW (Physical WW can use both tough as nails and superstition) and some other non Raekor builds only.
In testing, if you want to use a damage mitigation passive for Raekors then superstition is the preferred choice over Tough as Nails. However, I dont use it or any damage mitigation passive as I have almost have 80% IP uptime, 11% elite damage reduction and eye of etlitch (further 32% firechain/lightning damage reduction).
See Pages Raekors guide for more info, IMO its the best Vile Charge guide around.
Generally its not the tough as nails passive on its own, its the synergy the passive has with rampage/str/res all/warcy-impunity, especially if you have high str and a full rampage stack. The number cruncher nerd barbs did the calculations and the practical barbs including myself (who just tested it) all found it worked better than superstition or other passives when it came to damage reduction, especially if your armour paragon points were also maxed.
3. STATS, CALCULATIONS AND OTHER HELPFUL INFORMATION http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524#4
3.1 Game mechanics by Nubtro
3.2 Understanding D3 Mechanics and Misconceptions
3.3 Elite affix types and damage reduction mechanics
3.4 Eduw's damage calculation spreadsheet
3.5 Two hander weapons WW RLTW breakpoints
3.6 WW and Sprint RLTW mechanics
3.7 Commonly used D3 acronyms by Jaetch
3.8 DPS calculators
3.9 Progression chart for Greater Rift by Nyan
3.10 Barbarian wiki (reddit)
3.11 Patch notes 2.1 summarised by Miss Cheetah (added 4 Jan 2015)
3.12 ROS elemental skill damage explained by Druin (added 4 Jan 2015)
3.13 Area damage explained by Amair (added 5 Jan 2015)
3.14 ROS followers (Level 70) Complete Guide by AshTag (added 5 Jan 2015)
3.15 Legendary Property/Proc Mechanics Collection by Kanjihack (added 5 Jan 2015)
3.16 Bounty-Exclusive Legendary Items (added 5 Jan 2015)
4. POPULAR THREADS http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524#5
4.1 Rate the barb above you 2.1
4.2 Official barb hangout thread
4.3 Theorycrafting 2.1.2 lightning WW set
4.4 - 2.1.2 PTR testing with videos and item links
4.5 Fury of the Vanished Peak - Show us your best one
4.6 CDR vs DPS (added 4 Jan 2015)
4.7 - 2.1.0 PTR Two hander buffs and performance vs 1 handers (added 4 Jan 2015)
Ive been running this build for a number of months now and still find it the most fun Ive had since D3 vanilla. Many other barbs using the build say the same.
I wrote this guide on it due to a lot of requests by other barbs (youtube clip included). EQ crits up to 147 mil and SS up to 130 mil. It far surpasses any other cold build and most fire/physical Leapquake builds.
Why is it so much fun? Its the best synergistic EQ/spender build due to cold/chilaniks chain sprint and the ability to spam SS. Its quick, out performs its fire counterpart that has 1/3 more DPS which uses a furnace. The only builds IMO that out perform it are physical WW with COTA and Raekers.
The barbarian is designed to be able to use any weapon it can wear, and feel it does the job, that's why the Weapons Master passive is there. Making MW too good compared to the rest will unbalance the while philosophy behind this character, making this passive useless. That's why they continue to improve the class in other places and avoid making MW too good. And again, doing so you basically just adding a weapons to a set, because you clearly want that weapon to work nice with your set that has very specific purpose, not like the crusader ones which mainly buff your damage.
However, you still haven't provided us with arguments to why barbarian should have good MW if the others have really nice class specific weap or off hands. According to diabloprogress the top 60 grift is composed from: 21 Demon Hunters, 1 Crusader and the rest... Barbarians. As for the perfect idiotic question asked at Blizzcon, about Mighty Weapons not feeling mighty enough, you can't really answer with a straight face. You can't use a name as an argument to convey an idea. And besides the whole comparing thingy is downwards stupid. The offhands for all classes give you things like elemental damage, crit chance, attack speed etc, since the barbarian does not have something like this it feels different anyway you look at it. Even the monk, who is similar is using just one class specific item for one of the best builds now, so it's not like the monks are using class specific weapons to destroy the game, but the barbs are very good in doing so with any weapon. And in the case of the crusader, part of its design is based around shields, that's why shields give you build changing bonuses.
And besides, and I continue to bring this up, why do you guys think the devs are more likely to make mistakes and you guys don't?!
21 1
Weapons Master passive is garbage. Perhaps if you played a barb you would know this. MW be too good, ha, there hardly being used atm so how could you even measure something that doesnt exist.
Everything you have quoted regarding game philosophy is in contrast to the actual philosophy, which is items buff skills as stated several times by the devs. This includes weapons. Further the devs have acknowledged MWs are not mighty, ie, they need rework. So how about you stop making stuff up and pretending you are in charge of D3.
Didnt bother reading the rest of your post, you clearly dont play a barb and have no idea what your talking about. Move along.
Your highlighting my whole point. Why should we be using generic weapons when we have a weapon class. No other class currently does that as you pointed out, because they have build diversity and class weapons which promote this. We do not. As for Barbs getting better sets, thats a separate issue and its a piece of a non set (VWs) not the FC set that is making it the top performer for the class. Which is case in point, this VW items should have been integrated into a MW. Your incorrect in stating we have weapons or shields that provide us with elemental damage. The Maximus, Shaefers Hammer, WOTBK are all generic weapons, ie, every class can use them, they are not restricted to barbs for use only. Which again, highlights my point that we get the least attention. And as for an intel class looking weird using a maximus, of course its weird, intel classes have mojo's and sources etc that were designed to be better than a maximus. Again, case in point for why we need MWs that out perform a maximus/Furnace and promote build diversity for barbs.
Apart from stating you want all barbs to not have MWs that are mighty, your also saying we should be an exception to the current game design and not have any weapons which promote our class or set skills? Thats ridiculous.
I am certainly aware class development of weapons etc costs time and money. As Ive said before and have proven in my analysis, we are getting the least attention of all the classes. Anybody who participated in the 2.1 PTR will confirm the very thorough work and rework (rightly so) of the Wizard and Monk classes. Barbs? After several threads to create more MWs, especially one for HOTA, we received no replies or decent rework of all current MWs when 2.1 rolled out (apart from the FOTVP). Since then most of us were convinced they had been working on MWs and were to reveal these at Blizzcon 2014. And no, instead we have Travis Day admit they have dropped the ball and nothing new as yet.
So devs, now that you have admitted you dropped the ball, create some MWs that are mighty and promote top end build diversity. Ive supplied the data which shows just how few MWs we use whilst demonstrating that other classes such as the crusader have weapons they prefer to the Furnace and Maximus.
and looking at the 2 hrs of blizzcon 2014 footage is that we as a class get the least attention.
Well what interesting and new things or changes do they have for WDs? Other than that statement, I agree. MWs are lackluster.
45% of SC WDs currently use a ceremonial dagger. Of which 95% use a ceremonial dagger in conjunction with a MOJO. MOJOs account for the top 3 (roughly 70-75%) of off hands used with one handers for the class.
As I said earlier, in comparison to other classes, our 14.10% use of MWs shows our class gets the least attention.
I agree Marantini, anything which works with our builds, especially sets would be welcomed. My conclusion after reviewing all the stats for each class, and looking at the 2 hrs of blizzcon 2014 footage is that we as a class get the least attention.
That legendary power segment on stage certainly didnt focus on a power that was to be used by all classes, there was a lot of talk about wizards. Not against any other class, but Im a bit over hearing only about other class improvements or attention to existing MW equivalent items., especially when ours are the worst performing, the stats back this up.
Either the devs just arent interested in our class, or are more interested in others. Either way, we have the stats now to show just how little MWs are used by us as a class.
Id actually like to see Bastions get a FC bonus of 45-50% on top of the frenzy bonus. This would make it well suited as a Raekers VC Might Weapon and a serious contender to the Furnace.
They won't buff raekor any time soon It's the same issue as the sentry DH. Gameplay becomes to disregard intended mechanics, and even do something blizzard might have missed out of their " math machine" and that is the raekor can deal superb aoe damage to a pack, but a good raekor player will do that damage to the first pack, then carry it to the next and do even more damage, then carry them to the next pack to do even more damage and so on, and you can end up with 20 packs ( including elites) that you just pressed a button disregarding all game mechanics, since they are permanently frozen.
Bottom line, raekor is good enough as it is, even the best if you hunt for conduits or go for group ranking. So it will always be an alternative to any build out there simply for the damage per packs mechanic from above.
Its not about buffing Raekers, its about buffing MWs. Yup, I used Rakers as an example but that was to illustrate how you would go about creating a MW that players would pick in preference to a Maximus/Furnace. So its not about buffing sets, but replacing non MWs with MWs using blizzards current approach to creating more rings they hope we will use instead of SOJ/Unity.
But I agree with what your saying about the set its self, it certainly wont get buffed any time soon.
Id actually like to see Bastions get a FC bonus of 45-50% on top of the frenzy bonus. This would make it well suited as a Raekers VC Might Weapon and a serious contender to the Furnace.
0
See write up here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/19891879609#1 of IK6/HOTA testing in 2.4 PTR which covers AD.
Cheers
CC123
0
I excluded the chain as the slave tends to die very quickly in higher Grifts which makes the feature almost useless. The two common solutions to STD are COTA (which performs better with a Furnace than Maximus with a slave that dies easily in higher Grifts) and/or party with DHs/ZDPS sader or WD. Frenzy doesnt factor in at all if your attempting Grift 43 plus as its DPS is too low (ancients do twice the damage each or more) and you get one shot too easily by RGs as your standing on their feet.
But this is off topic. For more info on what gets you to Grift 45 plus, check the D3 barb forums. Look for posts from Baconinja, Samir, Tao, Shadow, Page etc who are hitting the upper 40s solo or 50s in groups.
0
IRT the fire only question, not sure about the chain but I imagine the answer is yes. Im also refering to the fire % elemental bonus. Not the element of the weapon DPS its self, in which your correct, the rune picks the element.
F.Y.I the reason our weapons still roll with an element for the DPS is a D3 vanilla PTR (before the game lauched) legacy. In a dev interview they stated your weapon was going to decide the element, but they thought this would add an unnecessary extra level of RNG so they decided to come up with the current rune system but didnt remove the old one fully. Just unplugged its rune effect and not the animation if that makes sense.
Cheers
CC123
0
Excluding the chain from the Maximus's slave, total DPS against elites would be as follows:
Furnace = 5677.05 (due to 58% elite bonus) VS Ancient Maximus = 4778.5 (obviously fire only for maximus). Then you have to minus off the .15 AS boost for the maximus which is redundant and artificially inflates the DPS of the maximus if used for FC. So its DPS would be even less again for FC. However, the maximus does have another 378 str, but this isnt enough to get it even close to the Furnace, even if you roll up the % damage from 7 to 10%.
Also, Furnace opens up the possibility of using physical which will give you a "double dip" of bloodshed, yet another reason that Furnace would be better.
In summary, Furnace good, ancient maximus not as good.
Cheers
CC123
0
In testing, if you want to use a damage mitigation passive for Raekors then superstition is the preferred choice over Tough as Nails. However, I dont use it or any damage mitigation passive as I have almost have 80% IP uptime, 11% elite damage reduction and eye of etlitch (further 32% firechain/lightning damage reduction).
See Pages Raekors guide for more info, IMO its the best Vile Charge guide around.
Cheers
CC123
1
Generally its not the tough as nails passive on its own, its the synergy the passive has with rampage/str/res all/warcy-impunity, especially if you have high str and a full rampage stack. The number cruncher nerd barbs did the calculations and the practical barbs including myself (who just tested it) all found it worked better than superstition or other passives when it came to damage reduction, especially if your armour paragon points were also maxed.
Hope this helps
Cheers
CC123
1
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524
Here is the contents thus far.
-------------------------------------CONTENTS-----------------------------------------
1. BUILD GUIDES
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524#2
1.1 Raekors
1.2 Might of the Earth (EQ)
1.3 Immortal Kings
1.4 Other (added 4 Jan 2015)
2. COMMUNITIES AND COMPETITIONS
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524#3
2.1 Cold barbarian Club
2.2 T6 rift clearing competition
3. STATS, CALCULATIONS AND OTHER HELPFUL INFORMATION
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524#4
3.1 Game mechanics by Nubtro
3.2 Understanding D3 Mechanics and Misconceptions
3.3 Elite affix types and damage reduction mechanics
3.4 Eduw's damage calculation spreadsheet
3.5 Two hander weapons WW RLTW breakpoints
3.6 WW and Sprint RLTW mechanics
3.7 Commonly used D3 acronyms by Jaetch
3.8 DPS calculators
3.9 Progression chart for Greater Rift by Nyan
3.10 Barbarian wiki (reddit)
3.11 Patch notes 2.1 summarised by Miss Cheetah (added 4 Jan 2015)
3.12 ROS elemental skill damage explained by Druin (added 4 Jan 2015)
3.13 Area damage explained by Amair (added 5 Jan 2015)
3.14 ROS followers (Level 70) Complete Guide by AshTag (added 5 Jan 2015)
3.15 Legendary Property/Proc Mechanics Collection by Kanjihack (added 5 Jan 2015)
3.16 Bounty-Exclusive Legendary Items (added 5 Jan 2015)
4. POPULAR THREADS
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524#5
4.1 Rate the barb above you 2.1
4.2 Official barb hangout thread
4.3 Theorycrafting 2.1.2 lightning WW set
4.4 - 2.1.2 PTR testing with videos and item links
4.5 Fury of the Vanished Peak - Show us your best one
4.6 CDR vs DPS (added 4 Jan 2015)
4.7 - 2.1.0 PTR Two hander buffs and performance vs 1 handers (added 4 Jan 2015)
5. FAQs
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15700042524#6
0
I wrote this guide on it due to a lot of requests by other barbs (youtube clip included). EQ crits up to 147 mil and SS up to 130 mil. It far surpasses any other cold build and most fire/physical Leapquake builds.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15007320713
We also started a cold barbarian community to share similar builds and loot. Here is the thread for it.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/15007311215?page=3#43
Here is a thread that took off started by barbs who stated how much fun they were having playing the build.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/14419762316
Why is it so much fun? Its the best synergistic EQ/spender build due to cold/chilaniks chain sprint and the ability to spam SS. Its quick, out performs its fire counterpart that has 1/3 more DPS which uses a furnace. The only builds IMO that out perform it are physical WW with COTA and Raekers.
Cheers
CC123
0
Everything you have quoted regarding game philosophy is in contrast to the actual philosophy, which is items buff skills as stated several times by the devs. This includes weapons. Further the devs have acknowledged MWs are not mighty, ie, they need rework. So how about you stop making stuff up and pretending you are in charge of D3.
Didnt bother reading the rest of your post, you clearly dont play a barb and have no idea what your talking about. Move along.
0
Your highlighting my whole point. Why should we be using generic weapons when we have a weapon class. No other class currently does that as you pointed out, because they have build diversity and class weapons which promote this. We do not. As for Barbs getting better sets, thats a separate issue and its a piece of a non set (VWs) not the FC set that is making it the top performer for the class. Which is case in point, this VW items should have been integrated into a MW. Your incorrect in stating we have weapons or shields that provide us with elemental damage. The Maximus, Shaefers Hammer, WOTBK are all generic weapons, ie, every class can use them, they are not restricted to barbs for use only. Which again, highlights my point that we get the least attention. And as for an intel class looking weird using a maximus, of course its weird, intel classes have mojo's and sources etc that were designed to be better than a maximus. Again, case in point for why we need MWs that out perform a maximus/Furnace and promote build diversity for barbs.
Apart from stating you want all barbs to not have MWs that are mighty, your also saying we should be an exception to the current game design and not have any weapons which promote our class or set skills? Thats ridiculous.
I am certainly aware class development of weapons etc costs time and money. As Ive said before and have proven in my analysis, we are getting the least attention of all the classes. Anybody who participated in the 2.1 PTR will confirm the very thorough work and rework (rightly so) of the Wizard and Monk classes. Barbs? After several threads to create more MWs, especially one for HOTA, we received no replies or decent rework of all current MWs when 2.1 rolled out (apart from the FOTVP). Since then most of us were convinced they had been working on MWs and were to reveal these at Blizzcon 2014. And no, instead we have Travis Day admit they have dropped the ball and nothing new as yet.
So devs, now that you have admitted you dropped the ball, create some MWs that are mighty and promote top end build diversity. Ive supplied the data which shows just how few MWs we use whilst demonstrating that other classes such as the crusader have weapons they prefer to the Furnace and Maximus.
0
As I said earlier, in comparison to other classes, our 14.10% use of MWs shows our class gets the least attention.
0
That legendary power segment on stage certainly didnt focus on a power that was to be used by all classes, there was a lot of talk about wizards. Not against any other class, but Im a bit over hearing only about other class improvements or attention to existing MW equivalent items., especially when ours are the worst performing, the stats back this up.
Either the devs just arent interested in our class, or are more interested in others. Either way, we have the stats now to show just how little MWs are used by us as a class.
0
They are commonly referred to as Saders by several classes.
0
Its not about buffing Raekers, its about buffing MWs. Yup, I used Rakers as an example but that was to illustrate how you would go about creating a MW that players would pick in preference to a Maximus/Furnace. So its not about buffing sets, but replacing non MWs with MWs using blizzards current approach to creating more rings they hope we will use instead of SOJ/Unity.
But I agree with what your saying about the set its self, it certainly wont get buffed any time soon.
0