It seems that some people are incapable of having a debate without becoming inflammatory and childish. You know who you are, and this is why I never post on forums. Always someone trying to get their ego boosted by shooting you down regardless of whatever logical argument you put forth.
Anyway, the beta is here without NDA to provide us with an opportunity to give feedback. This is my feedback and many others. Many of the people who want a skill system like I do can't post on the official D3 forums because most of them are true hack n' slash RPG fans. You have to understand the feedback is skewed towards that type of player base, hence where this false "minority" statistic comes from. I guarantee once closed beta starts for everyone, that you'll start seeing this thread pop up a hundred times more if the issues haven't been resolved.
You can't put forth an argument such as: "They can't change it now." That simply isn't true. Up until fairly recently they've HAD a system very similar to what I wanted. This new system isn't that old, to be honest, and since most of the game has been developed with a skill point system in mind, it wouldn't be hard to change back.
I don't need to defend my knowledge of the Diablo series in this thread. I've been playing it probably longer than most of the inflammatory posters have. That's irrelevant. What we are here to discuss is the fallacy of the new system and how to fix it. If you're unable to differentiate opinion from fact, or incapable of having a civilized conversation over said subject, then please just refrain from posting, as it will be ignored by me and hopefully others.
To close, I'll say that THIS is precisely the time where feedback will be taken into consideration. It would be a lot easier for me to express my point if there were more people in beta to discuss this with rather than a bunch of theorycrafting based on beta footage and hours of streamed beta content. I know the better of two systems. I don't want the same fallout that the Diablo II system had, but I don't want this system which grants you anything you want whenever you want. Where are the people who enjoyed a challenge in their game? If all end game skills are actually balanced for end game (which they weren't in Diablo II), then you'll see much greater variety end-game. No matter what system is used, the end result is the same. I just want to have fun getting there, and actually have a reason to play through the game more than 5 times.
Wow, glad to see a bunch of discussion on this topic! I'll try and respond to everyone I can..but let me preface with a few points. Warning, another wall of text incoming :).
Diablo II had a flawed skill system. That doesn't make it wrong by any means. Skill trees are a staple of RPGs nowadays partially due to Diablo II's success. You can do this kind of system right--to scrap it last minute (definitely last minute in in terms of development) and totally change what the game is is just reckless. You all wouldn't be here if you didn't at least partially enjoy the system. So as much hate as some of you give it, it still had you playing, meaning it was doing something right. Why not fix the wrongs instead of trying to sweep it under the rug?
Beta isn't a true portion of the game. This is definitely true. But you can see how the skill system will pan out as you have the mechanics of it presented to you. What you don't see is runes, but that isn't really what is under debate. Runes can do a number of things I'm sure, but they can't fix what doesn't work in the first place (my opinion).
Finally, some of you say that you don't HAVE to swap skills on the fly. That argument is entirely invalid. Sure, I don't have to. But people will do it. The game will be balanced around that, and even if I didn't swap skills at all, some encounters down the road would force me to since everyone else is. If Blizzard gave you a bag that spawned a Legendary every 5 minutes, wouldn't it be stupid to ignore it? ESPECIALLY since money is on the line for some of these people. You have to realize how the addition of a proper RMAH will create a frenzy in those doing macros, skill swaps, mods (if possible, which I'm sure will happen no matter what) and thus force changes that you might not even want into the game.
That being said, let me address everyone I can as best I can...
Tons of aspects in Diablo 2 were just tedious. Making a new character because you fucked up was one of them (prior to the respec-ability implemented in Act 1). I'd rather have one great Barbarian, one great Wizard and one great Demon Hunter than a few shitty ones. When I play a game I want to go all out with whatever I do.
The ability to respecs saves me the trouble of remaking my badass character from scratch and I can whenever I feel like it swap from my super-tanky Barbarian to my Über-damage Barbarian and have a completely different gaming experience. I think that's pretty neat. With that said, I still believe all characters will have some skills that are absolute essentials. As I've already made some Barbarian examples, lets continue down that route. I'm a hardcore player, always was, and in hardcore survivability was key (now you can just go to whatever monster you want and bash them in the face using Berserk, not giving a fuck), you'd focus everything that made you harder to kill. Iron Skin, Leap Attack, Natural Resistances, Battle Orders, Shout, etc. etc.
It will be the same thing in D3. Some skills will always be viable (or more viable than others). Leap you will need to survive, Taunt you will need to take attention from your squishy friends and you'll need Seismic Slam for crowd control and whatnot. It's impossible to avoid this since different gametypes (SC vs HC) require different playstyles and different approaches.
And some of the stuff you mention are a direct product of the fact that D3 is still in the beta stages with only about an hour of content so far. What you can do is severely limited.
Lets take item stats and their impact on your character for example (you phrased it as lack of connection to the character). Picking up a pair of magical boots that give +1 Defense. "Yay, now I can throw out my Crude Dog Hide Boots.". Then after a few more minutes of playing you find another pair of magic boots, which, lo and behold, give +2 Defense - a whooping 1 Defense difference! "Oh snap, I better make sure these boots are 100% better than the old ones." *opens character screen*.
Seriously, with items at low level having such a small impact on the characters stats, there really isn't much point in opening that tab. I have no doubt you'll start comparing stuff at a later level though where items most likely will have several different stat-modifiers with widely varying values (ranging from +20 to +70).
As for +to all skills modifiers... why? The way skills work in D3 has changed a lot from D2. Most skills are based around a fixed damage or percentage multiplied with a percentage of your characters main/off-hand weapons damage. Meaning, the fatter my loot gets, the fatter my skills get and subsequently - the fatter my character gets. It's a win-win situation. In D2, only the characters who circled around physical damage had real benefits from improved weapons - now everyone benefits from improved weapons.
And much of what you mention can be fixed quite simply: play a hardcore character. There's no way in hell (literally) that you will stay alive with one forever, especially since everyone in the first few months of the game will be pioneers, finding out the hard way how to do things right. Why hardcore fixes a lot of the issues you mention kind of explains itself. You die. You make a new character. Your last spec / item build didn't work so well. New spec / items will be different. etc. etc.
That's my two cents. For now anyway.
The system in Diablo II forced you to remake a character if you wanted any chance of maxing your character's potential. The plus side is that if you knew what was up, leveling wasn't hard. The downside is that it is a huge problem to have to make a new character all over again to achieve what you want. That part of the game is something that could easily be solved by some respecs. If you don't limit them, you'll have unlimited freedom and we're back to square one. If you do, and you include skill points, you can customize how you want, but you'll also be punished if you keep screwing up. This is a good thing. Most punishments are bad, but some that force you to have a challenge can be good. I'm not saying that being able to change your character is bad. But, the process to getting the character you want is so diluted and easy now. Again, limited respecs would allow your character to change if he wants (but not an unlimited amount of times) and if you ever hit that wall or wanted more respecs you could make another character of the same class (thus solving the "not making another character of the same class" conundrum).
I'm all for improving your skills' power through items. Higher level skills mean more effects, usually. More magic missles, more Hydras, more Charged Bolts, whatever. Diablo 2 had this, for sure. But you were improving on skills you chose and skills that made your character yours. I'd rather feel more connection to these improvements because ultimately this connection to your character is what makes you want to further his ability. With your character being a bland, auto-leveling shell, you lose part of the motivation for improving him because it isn't like you pushed your character to be "all about skill [x]". Because he isn't all about a certain skill or two that you chose, you don't get nearly as much out of a Snowclash, or Death's Fathom, or Homunculus.
This would be especially true if the new "unattuned rune" idea that Jay Wilson discussed comes to fruition. Yeah, you can change your skills on the fly, but there's no reason to until you're rich enough to have the correct rune for that skill with the better modifiers. Also, if you have a top of the line rune that you worked hard to get, are you going to swap away from that skill? No, otherwise you wouldn't have worked so hard for that rune.
Obviously, a ton of this will depend on the scarcity of upper level runes and the actual difficulty of hell/inferno. But these are things that Blizzard can easily balance for. I have to believe that they have truly thought this through.
Now, this doesn't address the legitimate problem of "why would I level a new witch doctor?" The "leveling" of the new one will actually be just finding the runes for that new "build" you want.
Similarly, hopefully your armor/weapons/gear will make changing skills at a whim harder as your gear isn't as effective anymore.
Firstly, we all can pretty much guess that the skill system is going to change at the VERY least to have restrictions on swapping. However, in a system that touts being able to be whatever type of [insert class here] you want, does it not seem like a last minute penalty they added if they choose to destroy runes on swap? If a system like this is in place, then not only are they going to have the meta-gaming they DIDN'T want early on when runes aren't important, but they are ALSO going to have the standard builds once each build has been researched. To me, I'd rather choose the path that MEANS something to get to the standard builds rather than the path that I feel adds an awkward level of freedom. Not to mention that also destroys any reasoning behind building another character of the same class. In my opinion, relying on solely on items to dictate how your character works is taking away from the experience, not adding to it. I like to feel like my character means something with or without items, and that's not something possible for me and many others in the current build of Diablo 3.
I have been reading a lot of feedback on blizzard's d3 forum, quite many of them are concerned about the skill set swapping issue. Some people are saying that runes will prevent it, but at this moment we have little information on runes mechanism.
Remember how 1 skill pt in corpse explosion and teleport in d2 was good enough?
It is very likely that there will be skills (all maxed) in d3 like that, where runes do not make much of a difference for the purpose of the skill. For example, buff/debuff or escape skills. You can use your buff/debuff, and when you see the need, switch that to a escape/movement skill.
What I am saying here is that, Blizzard decided on the 6 skill slot to force us make hard decisions. 6 skills out of 20. But its system right now is going the opposite direction than their philosophy.
If we can use macro to quickly switch skills, we can potentially have more than 6 skills (all maxed) at our hand.
I am sure that runes will make skills different, but not the same degree of alteration to each skill. For those skills where rune effects are negligible, and does not improve its intended purpose, people will just get more skills.
Also, for those rich kids (or people play endelessly) they may able to put a rune in all the skills they need, maybe all 20 if allowed. You can say well they spent their money/time, and they deserve it. But you have to question, is this the way blizzard want the game to turn out?
This is another driving point for me. I don't feel like having a skill that has decent utility with one point into it means it was a bad skill. Teleport in Diablo 2 used to have to be maxed out for Sorceresses before +skill items became the norm. Otherwise, it made it entirely too slow to rely on. Is a skill bad if it only requires one point? Escape skills (Teleport, Leap, etc.), buffs (Energy Shield, Thunder Shield, Chilling Armor), and the like? I don't think so. Sure, sometimes skills are poorly designed. This new system is not going to fix that just like the old system of skill points would not make it worse.
Precisely. Limiting skills to 6 and then allowing people to switch in two seconds whenever they want just doesn't make sense. My first thought when I heard this was 'Guild Wars', but in guild wars you can only change skills outside of adventuring areas.
I was also going to point out that you'd probably able to create macros through a 3rd party program that switch skills for you in an instant, but you beat me to it
The rune system may end up making us feel like we are (gently?) committing to "our chosen skills". We don't know enough yet, but I want to say that character differentiation is very important. Nobody wants to feel like he's just one clone of many, with the only difference being their items.
I'm guessing the "unattuned rune" idea is that whenever you change skills, the skill you just added loses the rune effect for some time? That sounds like a pretty smart way to go about it.
I didn't think Guild Wars was a bad game. I enjoyed it back in the day. It just isn't the same type of game as Diablo 3 at all. A skill system like they are showing us now CAN fit in some games. I don't think it fits into a hack n' slash RPG, though. You can't have a system like this and expect many people not to use or abuse it to the fullest. Macros are not hard at all to program into your hardware, so why would you NOT use them? To me, no matter what anyone says the rune system is going to be or how it's going to work, it will, at best, put a band-aid on a flawed system.
I don't think most people feel its obligatory, I think most people will think it would be annoying to put yourself in a situation where you'll need to swap out skills all the time, and will instead aim to pick 6 skills that cover all their needs and stick with those, while only sometimes swapping in different skills that are similar, say one combo point builder for another on the monk or whatever.
I know that I definitely will not be hot-swapping skills all the time but will stick with my core 6 and only change to try something different from time to time.
There are a lot of people who will just be too lazy to change their skills and use what they have. That's fine, I'm okay with that. There are plenty of games I've played where I've said: "I can probably be doing this a lot better but I just don't care enough." The problem with that is this: So many things are influenced by the skill system and the maximum efficiency one can attain from it. Difficulty of the game, quality of drops, skill balance, boss balance, restrictions, and so forth. Because every character has every skill at their fingertips, then a game has to be rebalanced from the ground up. A decision like this has more weight than they probably hoped for. There are some monsters in Diablo II that are resistant or immune to some elements. Whether or not they are prevalent in Diablo 3 is relatively unknown. However, as hard as a monster is or as resistant as he is, you will never have an issue with your character destroying it unless you're severely underleveled. From a balance standpoint, all characters have to be able to solo the game, and because each character has each skill, you will not find yourself in a situation where your skill swap can't defeat anything the game throws at you. It certainly doesn't give a "need" to play with anyone else you don't know, though. And that's bad.
1) Please god actually READ the reasons why skill points were removed. Any system with skill points WILL lead to a situation where you max x number of skills. If you don't have enough to max 6, then you'll max 5, or 4, or however many. If they gave us 60 skill points and the max skill level were 10, we'd max 6, if it were 15 we'd max 4. There would be EXACTLY the same level of customization as if they didn't have skill points.
As to customizing stats, stat customization removes the immersion from the game - why? Because you're spending all your time looking at numbers in stead of slaughtering monsters.
2) Respecs just force people to spend more time in town - again removing you from the fun of the game. All a respec does is force a person to go back to town - you still can 'respec' so to speak, you just get to do it where you want to when you want to in stead of having to go back to town and interrupt your slaughter.
3) Skills CAN be powered past max level. The attack stat effects all damage, and there are also affixes like "Increase x class's damage" or "Increase x damage type by %". Just stack the right gear, and your skills get stronger.
4) Three problems with this: 1) It is contingent upon skill points, which I've already covered above. 2) Synergies were only used to provide an incentive to put skill points into abilities you had no intention of using. They weren't a good idea, they were just the best possible solution to a heavily flawed system - not to mention the fact that synergies in d3 would only lead to people just using 2 abilities again, and powering those abilities up with synergistic abilities they didn't have any intention of using which is counter to the game design. 3) The game already HAS synergies in the most important way - abilities compliment each other very well. For example, all of the abilities a melee wizard will use all work together to make the build possible. That is TRUE synergy... not some random +damage given to one ability because you picked another ability you didn't want to begin with.
To respond to your points:
1. This doesn't really make sense to me. We can both agree that no matter the skill system, people will gravitate toward certain skills. Your latter point is untrue, though. There are many builds possible in a well-balanced point system (Not claiming Diablo II was) that would call for [X] points here, just enough points there, max points here, and there. Hence the customization of your character. Something you yourself devised. Stat point allocation is another customization aspect that furthers the bond between you and your character. Slaughtering monsters is fun, that's why we play these games. But to me, playing a game with eyes glazed over rapidly pushing buttons with no thought to future levels (since they don't mean much now) is not appealing. No longer will I say to myself: "Okay, so I gain 5 more levels and I'll be at a new personal plateau with my character."
2. How does this new system cure time spent away from battle? If respecs were limited, then time spent doing it would be but a fraction of your character's lifetime. As it stands, you actually spend far more time swapping skills around before each battle or in town to give yourself the optimum build for the challenge ahead. That makes this point a little contradictory. I don't want to feel like I need to swap all the time just to breeze through the next challenge. I like thinking: "Alright, I am going to make this work as I built it." With some limited respecs, you could always fix it later if the game kicked you in the face too hard.
3. I never said skills couldn't get stronger. But, what I am saying is that currently you won't really see someone just spamming level 30 Charged Bolts (more bolts, more madness as opposed to % based increase in damage) to destroy all the mobs. Instead of seeing higher level skills, you will see higher damaging skills. That isn't good enough for me. I won't speak too much on this subject because this is all based on items and numbers which are mostly unknown.
4. Yes, synergies wouldn't return unless there were skill points. Unless they made it to where synergies apply to the 6 skills you've chosen (thus giving you a reason to have a build). It's no lie that they were applied to Diablo II to do just as you said--give incentive to get other skills. But it also bolstered current builds. You could build with synergies and reach a new level of power with all of them funneling into Blizzard, for example. I reiterate--I am not saying that Diablo II was perfect. Far from it, but I am saying that this new system is undoubtedly a step backwards. The problems that will arise from this system are far worse than having a skill that doesn't do much (that won't change, and will be like that in any game you play).
I think the actual system is flawed and have a major problem.
Theres no character customisation in the game past items. For people that played RTS, change skills and even runes in the middle of combat will be easy if it's allowed. I can reach 200+ APM. Change a skill is only 3 actions (change a skill and a rune is 6 actions). Wich mean i change my skill and runes in about 2~3 seconds. The consequencies of this exploit is really high:
Part of the gameplay will consist of quickly picking differ menu options (sucks)
Well prepared players will carry a bunch of runes, bringing back the same issues of the D2 charm system.
All high skilled players will have the exect same character, since they can swap items and skills at will. Maybe each class will be divided between some major item mods (crits or dmg, for example), but this FAR from real character customisation.
Level ups have no meaning. Allocating points after lvl ups is just really rewarding and the reason why so much people play rpgs. Seriously, right now people lvl up and don't even notice. You get some bonus in damage and resistance, but not choosing anything.. I don't know... I think a major chunck of the fun of lvling was removed from D3. A shame if you ask me. Part of the game is screwed =/
Level ups are pretty meaningless right now. In a good system, each time you level up you'll check how YOUR character has improved. Not some character you're playing at the moment, but YOUR character. The one you named, the one you carefully built in stats and skills. Runes are not really a fix for this as you have very little say in how your character differs.
Blizzard has specifically said a few times that they've designed the game for the people who choose one set of skills and stick with it. Sure some people will find ways to eke out 2% more power by swapping, but the people who don't aren't being punished for that fact. Which I think negates most of that problem.
The fact that you think a majority will hotswap abilities is I think perhaps a flaw in your logic... I really don't think that more than maybe a tenth even of the top top players will do so. I know I won't - and I'm usually a fairly skilled gamer at most games I play.
Leveling up gives a significant boost to power, access to new gear, new runes, and such. To me that does make it highly rewarding.
Why would you not give yourself a macro if you could? If you know you're not taking advantage of the system presented, then you can't really provide a good enough argument for or against it. Thousands upon thousands WILL find the fastest way, use the path of "least resistance" as the devs call it, and use simple macros or repeatedly change their skills. The game will need to be balanced around THAT, which will send the game in a direction that negates longevity, customization, and fun.
People are going to be split on this topic no matter what. That's a fact. But I implore you--ask yourself what's better. Less customization or more? Meaningful level-ups, skill choices, stat allocations, and immersion versus everyone unable to make mistakes and playing a character that does the work for you? Do you want items to dictate your character or do you want items and your personal choices of skills and stats on top of item choices to dictate your character? We can't say for sure anything about what we don't know (runes, end game items, perks, bonuses, etc.). But what I do know is that this skill system simply cannot provide the amount of connection and immersion that the previous titles held in its current state.
Warning, this is a long post and I put a lot of thought into it. Please read through it all so that the best possible discussion can be garnered. Thanks!
Hey all! I just want to say I've been lurking this website for many years...I was lurking for quite a while before the old domain (diablo3.com) was sold to Blizzard and Diablofans was created in its wake.
That out of the way, I have to voice my opinion on a game I have waited for for quite some time. Also let me preface by saying I think it's somewhat silly that I can't post in the new community forums for Diablo 3 unless I renew my ancient WoW subscription or buy Starcraft II. I figured the old Diablos would be enough, but I suppose not :(. I do feel that the feedback they are receiving on that forum is not nearly as on point for a true Diablo fan (such as us) since they don't allow owners of just those titles to post.
So, onto the topic at hand! The skill system. This has been an incredibly hot issue for debate since the early days of minor modification to the current complete revamp. Initially, I was excited for the way the game had been built. It seemed to be a polished upgrade from Diablo II, which is what I and many, many others wanted. I shared many of the concerns from each build of the game, from the color choices to the architectural resemblances to World of Warcraft. There is nothing more irritating to me than having a character with weapons that are 4 times their body length and sparkling with enough mystical fire to ignite Yggdrasil. But, overall, I was pleased with how the game was shaping up. I can get past a few graphical dislikes as long as the core gameplay is the same. Unfortunately, that's not what has panned out thusfar. In my opinion, they've all but killed replayability (with the same class), made the game far less immersive, and lost touch with what Diablo is all about.
TL;DR (hehe)
Here are my problems with the current skill system...
No skill trees
I am not afraid of revolutions in gaming. I have played more than enough games in my day to realize that things you wouldn’t think possible are actually quite fun. However, after milling over the beta footage and various bits of info, it seems silly not to have some sort of point distribution to further the connection between your character and yourself. Customization is so key in a game like this, and user-end customization is something the game cannot choose for you (like loot, runes, armor, and so forth). This is the only thing in the game you can decide, and in a game like this, it needs to be front and center. The way characters were built in Diablo II, while flawed, were still unique. The reason some builds were more prevalent was easily because of the band-aid fixes applied to the game several years after launch. Enigma, Ubers, high-end runewords. The builds that many complained about could have been solved by actual balance. Unfortunately, the Diablo II team was all but nonexistent, and such a feat was impossible.
Access to all skills
To me, this is a problem. This entirely defeats the replayability of this game. The Sorceress was my favorite class in Diablo II. I had many, (Fire, Lightning, Blizzard, Frozen Orb, Energy, etc.)and each was fun to play in their own way. Nothing really came close to the fun that running Ancient Tunnels, Mephisto, and various other places with your powerful Blizzard that you invested the research and time to build properly. If you have access to all skills of a class and there are no skill points, then all of the skills are intended to be equal. Unfortunately, this means the differentiation of each character is based solely on items, runes, etc. Virtually all user-end decision is eliminated. The REASON why this is a problem (as many will say: "But instead of having 5 sorcs, you can have one that all serve the same purpose!") is that if I wanted a new sorc, I had to work for it. I was excited about having a second high level character that I would have a connection to. With these Wizards being all-in-ones, you aren't dedicated to looking for build-specific gear and tearing the game up with your unique character. Instead, you're just looking for good...gear. Anything will do, if that makes sense.
Skill swapping with no penalty
This one isn't as important, because no doubt it will be addressed in SOME manner. Right now, any character can change to any skill they've unlocked at any time. Why the developers thought this would be smart is beyond me. Macros can easily be made to have characters press a few keys and be outfitted with the perfect skill set to face the demons ahead. It has been shown numerous times in many beta streams that this is the case. The overall problem with this skill system is that it is inherently flawed. You cannot give someone the freedom of having every skill. It negates the want to build more than one character of the same class. It erases "builds" entirely, and what builds DO exist due to certain items and runes (which is an incredibly watered down way to differentiate players) can be mimicked and easily attained thanks to the accessibility of items to the player (RMAH, personal drops, shared stash). It ruins differentiation between characters.
Lack of connection with your character
This is one of the most important aspects for me. You hardly look at your character screen because you don't really need to from what I've seen from all the D3 footage. Why would you? Stats are chosen for you, skills are unlocked for you. There doesn't seem to be a real DRAW to pull yourself toward your character. These factors are preventing IMMERSION, which is what video games are all about. A small analogy for you...Resident Evil. 1 and 2 specifically were survival horrors. They were scary. They were difficult, and you could get so screwed that you wasted your goddamned ink ribbons and couldn't save (thus heightening the tension and making you mad, both good things). Resident Evil 4 and 5 were great games, but they weren't quite the same. They took the "horror" out of survival horror by making it a shooting action game. Diablo 3 is doing the same thing to the origins of the series by making it less RPG, more action. No doubt it will be fun, but in the RPG world, this is absolutely unacceptable. You NEED to be tied to your character and not feel like you're playing Gauntlet at an arcade machine.
Some common rebuttals to these complaints of the new skill system:
"If I screwed up in Diablo II, I had to make a new character."
While this was true until respecs arrived, it isn't like it was difficult or "unfun" to make a new character. If you didn't know how to build a character (which is NO different from ANY other game with optimal builds), then you most likely wouldn't care if your blizzard did 80% the damage compared to the guy next to you.
"Runes will provide the customization and differentiation, as well as the setback to swapping skills."
I don't buy into this. I've seen from the datamines, various panels, videos, so forth the general idea behind runes. While this will provide customization, it doesn't seem at this point that it would provide enough to have someone say "Yes, I'm a Hydra Wiz" or "Yes, I'm an Archon Wiz". Why is it so difficult to let the player decide what skills he wants to be powerful?
"The skill system just had players respec their character and dump all the points into the skill they just unlocked."
This is a paraphrased Blizzard quote that we are all very familiar with. This was part of the reasoning that Jay Wilson thought the skill point idea was a bad one, hence the creation of this new (and in my opinion, wrong) system. Respecs are well and good, but they saw when players had the freedom to re-allocate their skill points, they would. Players choosing the most powerful skill is going to happen regardless. When you give them more freedom, they will take whatever skill has the most damaging numbers. So instead of restricting the freedom (respecs) they give total freedom (no skill points). This makes absolutely no sense to me. Sure, everyone gets to try every skill, but here's the problem. Even in a game with all skills available to you, there will still be the most powerful skill or set of skills. What they've done here is stripped what THEY thought was the problem (skill points) instead of wanting to deal with the real demon (constant balance). It makes me think they don't know enough about the series to be able to make these kind of judgment calls. Note: In Diablo II, you have a powerful Charged Boltress or Teeth Necro. You are cool and unique. In Diablo 3, you have a Magic Missile Wizard. You're an outcast and should be ashamed.
"This skill system is awesome! I love not having to make two Wizards, three Barbs, and so forth."
Some people like this new skill system. I'm okay with that. But, that does not mean having a character with every skill possible is a good thing. The only reason you had to make multiple characters of the same class in Diablo II was due to lack of respecs. I don't mind giving some of the punishment for screwing up my skills, but I don't want to give all of it up. Yes I was frustrated when I put 5 points in Shiver Armor way back in the day where they could have been put somewhere else. Does that matter to most people? No. Does it mean you are stuck and can't beat the game and that you have to make a new character? Absolutely not. I believe that the developers of Diablo 3 saw this as a huge obstacle, and instead of solving the problem by removing restriction and punishment, they tipped the scale in the opposite direction. Now the fun of building your character how you want to is just about gone because of how easy it is to change what he/she is. I'm not saying the system in Diablo II was perfect, so I will try and provide what I think would be an optimal system for Diablo 3 below...
Some ideas for improvement...
Re-introduce skill points at the very least, and give the option to allocate your stats manually.
Allow the option for respecs.
Put a gold sink on them that becomes more expensive each time you use it OR only allow one per 10 levels gained (or something like that). Not unlimited, but not too many. You have to play with your choices in the game. I think 2 respecs is way more than enough for a player like me, but I figure someone who wants to try a bunch of builds can do it with 5. Possibly make it so where you can run out of respecs and have to make a new character to get more after 5, 10, 20, I don't know. Sometimes harsh restriction is far more rewarding than too much freedom. Even if you think this is harsh, restrictions like this (as in Diablo II) added to longevity and replayability.
Allow skills to be powered past max level, as in Diablo II.
Items with +to skills or +to all skills were so critical in Diablo II to deciding what kind of items you were seeking. Without these kind of things, what is it we're looking for? + random numbers? +100% armor? These items provide so much more to the game because as a Blizzard Sorc, you KNOW you want Death's Fathom, Snowclash, and so on to provide your Blizzard with that much more "OOMPH". Am I the only one who had that general "awe" at comparing your character to someone else who knew how to do it and is absolutely crushing the Nine Hells under his foot? "I want to do that!" It doesn't seem like that will be possible in D3.
Reconsider synergies
I realize that synergies were changed to add life to a dying game, but the idea is brilliant. Skills that somehow power your other skills? With how many different iterations of skills there can be thanks to runes, this idea could REALLY take off in Diablo 3.
Bear in mind that I really do like the introduction of runes as skill modifiers. That's awesome. That just adds a huge level of customization to the game. I think they realized that they bit off more than they could chew in balancing, and just got rid of skills to compensate. There HAS to be a way to incorporate this new system with the system of old, and have them work together in harmony. As of right now, it doesn't really make sense to watch a Monk fight a bunch of mobs, change his skill to heal, and then head back into battle. It's awkward, and Blizzard KNOWS they can do better than THAT nonsense.
In closing, I have to say that I really think a modification of the old skill system with some new friendly (but not too friendly) respecs is what this game sorely needs. I can't imagine wanting to keep playing this game for too long after finding my favorite class and beating the game. Diablo II survived and was so much fun for so long because of this skill system and specific items that rewarded you for focusing on building your Blizzard sorc (or whatever character) and taking the time to research how, where, and what. If they keep with this "all skills for every class" nonsense, I think those of us intelligent enough to understand why it isn't fun will move on rather quickly. Quite frankly, that's a lot of us, and that's a lot of future customers lost. It worries me greatly, because what this game was took such a nose dive for me in the last few months that it becomes more and more upsetting the more I learn. I am just one guy, and I don't claim to have all the answers. I hope you guys find some insight from this and hopefully together we might be able to change a few things :). Thanks for reading!
Hey all.. I've been lurking here for years, but figured now was as good a time as any to post. Looks like this announcement has some good substance! Can't wait!
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Anyway, the beta is here without NDA to provide us with an opportunity to give feedback. This is my feedback and many others. Many of the people who want a skill system like I do can't post on the official D3 forums because most of them are true hack n' slash RPG fans. You have to understand the feedback is skewed towards that type of player base, hence where this false "minority" statistic comes from. I guarantee once closed beta starts for everyone, that you'll start seeing this thread pop up a hundred times more if the issues haven't been resolved.
You can't put forth an argument such as: "They can't change it now." That simply isn't true. Up until fairly recently they've HAD a system very similar to what I wanted. This new system isn't that old, to be honest, and since most of the game has been developed with a skill point system in mind, it wouldn't be hard to change back.
I don't need to defend my knowledge of the Diablo series in this thread. I've been playing it probably longer than most of the inflammatory posters have. That's irrelevant. What we are here to discuss is the fallacy of the new system and how to fix it. If you're unable to differentiate opinion from fact, or incapable of having a civilized conversation over said subject, then please just refrain from posting, as it will be ignored by me and hopefully others.
To close, I'll say that THIS is precisely the time where feedback will be taken into consideration. It would be a lot easier for me to express my point if there were more people in beta to discuss this with rather than a bunch of theorycrafting based on beta footage and hours of streamed beta content. I know the better of two systems. I don't want the same fallout that the Diablo II system had, but I don't want this system which grants you anything you want whenever you want. Where are the people who enjoyed a challenge in their game? If all end game skills are actually balanced for end game (which they weren't in Diablo II), then you'll see much greater variety end-game. No matter what system is used, the end result is the same. I just want to have fun getting there, and actually have a reason to play through the game more than 5 times.
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That being said, let me address everyone I can as best I can...
The system in Diablo II forced you to remake a character if you wanted any chance of maxing your character's potential. The plus side is that if you knew what was up, leveling wasn't hard. The downside is that it is a huge problem to have to make a new character all over again to achieve what you want. That part of the game is something that could easily be solved by some respecs. If you don't limit them, you'll have unlimited freedom and we're back to square one. If you do, and you include skill points, you can customize how you want, but you'll also be punished if you keep screwing up. This is a good thing. Most punishments are bad, but some that force you to have a challenge can be good. I'm not saying that being able to change your character is bad. But, the process to getting the character you want is so diluted and easy now. Again, limited respecs would allow your character to change if he wants (but not an unlimited amount of times) and if you ever hit that wall or wanted more respecs you could make another character of the same class (thus solving the "not making another character of the same class" conundrum).
I'm all for improving your skills' power through items. Higher level skills mean more effects, usually. More magic missles, more Hydras, more Charged Bolts, whatever. Diablo 2 had this, for sure. But you were improving on skills you chose and skills that made your character yours. I'd rather feel more connection to these improvements because ultimately this connection to your character is what makes you want to further his ability. With your character being a bland, auto-leveling shell, you lose part of the motivation for improving him because it isn't like you pushed your character to be "all about skill [x]". Because he isn't all about a certain skill or two that you chose, you don't get nearly as much out of a Snowclash, or Death's Fathom, or Homunculus.
Firstly, we all can pretty much guess that the skill system is going to change at the VERY least to have restrictions on swapping. However, in a system that touts being able to be whatever type of [insert class here] you want, does it not seem like a last minute penalty they added if they choose to destroy runes on swap? If a system like this is in place, then not only are they going to have the meta-gaming they DIDN'T want early on when runes aren't important, but they are ALSO going to have the standard builds once each build has been researched. To me, I'd rather choose the path that MEANS something to get to the standard builds rather than the path that I feel adds an awkward level of freedom. Not to mention that also destroys any reasoning behind building another character of the same class. In my opinion, relying on solely on items to dictate how your character works is taking away from the experience, not adding to it. I like to feel like my character means something with or without items, and that's not something possible for me and many others in the current build of Diablo 3.
This is another driving point for me. I don't feel like having a skill that has decent utility with one point into it means it was a bad skill. Teleport in Diablo 2 used to have to be maxed out for Sorceresses before +skill items became the norm. Otherwise, it made it entirely too slow to rely on. Is a skill bad if it only requires one point? Escape skills (Teleport, Leap, etc.), buffs (Energy Shield, Thunder Shield, Chilling Armor), and the like? I don't think so. Sure, sometimes skills are poorly designed. This new system is not going to fix that just like the old system of skill points would not make it worse.
I didn't think Guild Wars was a bad game. I enjoyed it back in the day. It just isn't the same type of game as Diablo 3 at all. A skill system like they are showing us now CAN fit in some games. I don't think it fits into a hack n' slash RPG, though. You can't have a system like this and expect many people not to use or abuse it to the fullest. Macros are not hard at all to program into your hardware, so why would you NOT use them? To me, no matter what anyone says the rune system is going to be or how it's going to work, it will, at best, put a band-aid on a flawed system.
There are a lot of people who will just be too lazy to change their skills and use what they have. That's fine, I'm okay with that. There are plenty of games I've played where I've said: "I can probably be doing this a lot better but I just don't care enough." The problem with that is this: So many things are influenced by the skill system and the maximum efficiency one can attain from it. Difficulty of the game, quality of drops, skill balance, boss balance, restrictions, and so forth. Because every character has every skill at their fingertips, then a game has to be rebalanced from the ground up. A decision like this has more weight than they probably hoped for. There are some monsters in Diablo II that are resistant or immune to some elements. Whether or not they are prevalent in Diablo 3 is relatively unknown. However, as hard as a monster is or as resistant as he is, you will never have an issue with your character destroying it unless you're severely underleveled. From a balance standpoint, all characters have to be able to solo the game, and because each character has each skill, you will not find yourself in a situation where your skill swap can't defeat anything the game throws at you. It certainly doesn't give a "need" to play with anyone else you don't know, though. And that's bad.
To respond to your points:
1. This doesn't really make sense to me. We can both agree that no matter the skill system, people will gravitate toward certain skills. Your latter point is untrue, though. There are many builds possible in a well-balanced point system (Not claiming Diablo II was) that would call for [X] points here, just enough points there, max points here, and there. Hence the customization of your character. Something you yourself devised. Stat point allocation is another customization aspect that furthers the bond between you and your character. Slaughtering monsters is fun, that's why we play these games. But to me, playing a game with eyes glazed over rapidly pushing buttons with no thought to future levels (since they don't mean much now) is not appealing. No longer will I say to myself: "Okay, so I gain 5 more levels and I'll be at a new personal plateau with my character."
2. How does this new system cure time spent away from battle? If respecs were limited, then time spent doing it would be but a fraction of your character's lifetime. As it stands, you actually spend far more time swapping skills around before each battle or in town to give yourself the optimum build for the challenge ahead. That makes this point a little contradictory. I don't want to feel like I need to swap all the time just to breeze through the next challenge. I like thinking: "Alright, I am going to make this work as I built it." With some limited respecs, you could always fix it later if the game kicked you in the face too hard.
3. I never said skills couldn't get stronger. But, what I am saying is that currently you won't really see someone just spamming level 30 Charged Bolts (more bolts, more madness as opposed to % based increase in damage) to destroy all the mobs. Instead of seeing higher level skills, you will see higher damaging skills. That isn't good enough for me. I won't speak too much on this subject because this is all based on items and numbers which are mostly unknown.
4. Yes, synergies wouldn't return unless there were skill points. Unless they made it to where synergies apply to the 6 skills you've chosen (thus giving you a reason to have a build). It's no lie that they were applied to Diablo II to do just as you said--give incentive to get other skills. But it also bolstered current builds. You could build with synergies and reach a new level of power with all of them funneling into Blizzard, for example. I reiterate--I am not saying that Diablo II was perfect. Far from it, but I am saying that this new system is undoubtedly a step backwards. The problems that will arise from this system are far worse than having a skill that doesn't do much (that won't change, and will be like that in any game you play).
Level ups are pretty meaningless right now. In a good system, each time you level up you'll check how YOUR character has improved. Not some character you're playing at the moment, but YOUR character. The one you named, the one you carefully built in stats and skills. Runes are not really a fix for this as you have very little say in how your character differs.
Why would you not give yourself a macro if you could? If you know you're not taking advantage of the system presented, then you can't really provide a good enough argument for or against it. Thousands upon thousands WILL find the fastest way, use the path of "least resistance" as the devs call it, and use simple macros or repeatedly change their skills. The game will need to be balanced around THAT, which will send the game in a direction that negates longevity, customization, and fun.
People are going to be split on this topic no matter what. That's a fact. But I implore you--ask yourself what's better. Less customization or more? Meaningful level-ups, skill choices, stat allocations, and immersion versus everyone unable to make mistakes and playing a character that does the work for you? Do you want items to dictate your character or do you want items and your personal choices of skills and stats on top of item choices to dictate your character? We can't say for sure anything about what we don't know (runes, end game items, perks, bonuses, etc.). But what I do know is that this skill system simply cannot provide the amount of connection and immersion that the previous titles held in its current state.
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Hey all! I just want to say I've been lurking this website for many years...I was lurking for quite a while before the old domain (diablo3.com) was sold to Blizzard and Diablofans was created in its wake.
That out of the way, I have to voice my opinion on a game I have waited for for quite some time. Also let me preface by saying I think it's somewhat silly that I can't post in the new community forums for Diablo 3 unless I renew my ancient WoW subscription or buy Starcraft II. I figured the old Diablos would be enough, but I suppose not :(. I do feel that the feedback they are receiving on that forum is not nearly as on point for a true Diablo fan (such as us) since they don't allow owners of just those titles to post.
So, onto the topic at hand! The skill system. This has been an incredibly hot issue for debate since the early days of minor modification to the current complete revamp. Initially, I was excited for the way the game had been built. It seemed to be a polished upgrade from Diablo II, which is what I and many, many others wanted. I shared many of the concerns from each build of the game, from the color choices to the architectural resemblances to World of Warcraft. There is nothing more irritating to me than having a character with weapons that are 4 times their body length and sparkling with enough mystical fire to ignite Yggdrasil. But, overall, I was pleased with how the game was shaping up. I can get past a few graphical dislikes as long as the core gameplay is the same. Unfortunately, that's not what has panned out thusfar. In my opinion, they've all but killed replayability (with the same class), made the game far less immersive, and lost touch with what Diablo is all about.
TL;DR (hehe)
Here are my problems with the current skill system...
Some common rebuttals to these complaints of the new skill system:
"If I screwed up in Diablo II, I had to make a new character."
While this was true until respecs arrived, it isn't like it was difficult or "unfun" to make a new character. If you didn't know how to build a character (which is NO different from ANY other game with optimal builds), then you most likely wouldn't care if your blizzard did 80% the damage compared to the guy next to you.
"Runes will provide the customization and differentiation, as well as the setback to swapping skills."
I don't buy into this. I've seen from the datamines, various panels, videos, so forth the general idea behind runes. While this will provide customization, it doesn't seem at this point that it would provide enough to have someone say "Yes, I'm a Hydra Wiz" or "Yes, I'm an Archon Wiz". Why is it so difficult to let the player decide what skills he wants to be powerful?
"The skill system just had players respec their character and dump all the points into the skill they just unlocked."
This is a paraphrased Blizzard quote that we are all very familiar with. This was part of the reasoning that Jay Wilson thought the skill point idea was a bad one, hence the creation of this new (and in my opinion, wrong) system. Respecs are well and good, but they saw when players had the freedom to re-allocate their skill points, they would. Players choosing the most powerful skill is going to happen regardless. When you give them more freedom, they will take whatever skill has the most damaging numbers. So instead of restricting the freedom (respecs) they give total freedom (no skill points). This makes absolutely no sense to me. Sure, everyone gets to try every skill, but here's the problem. Even in a game with all skills available to you, there will still be the most powerful skill or set of skills. What they've done here is stripped what THEY thought was the problem (skill points) instead of wanting to deal with the real demon (constant balance). It makes me think they don't know enough about the series to be able to make these kind of judgment calls. Note: In Diablo II, you have a powerful Charged Boltress or Teeth Necro. You are cool and unique. In Diablo 3, you have a Magic Missile Wizard. You're an outcast and should be ashamed.
"This skill system is awesome! I love not having to make two Wizards, three Barbs, and so forth."
Some people like this new skill system. I'm okay with that. But, that does not mean having a character with every skill possible is a good thing. The only reason you had to make multiple characters of the same class in Diablo II was due to lack of respecs. I don't mind giving some of the punishment for screwing up my skills, but I don't want to give all of it up. Yes I was frustrated when I put 5 points in Shiver Armor way back in the day where they could have been put somewhere else. Does that matter to most people? No. Does it mean you are stuck and can't beat the game and that you have to make a new character? Absolutely not. I believe that the developers of Diablo 3 saw this as a huge obstacle, and instead of solving the problem by removing restriction and punishment, they tipped the scale in the opposite direction. Now the fun of building your character how you want to is just about gone because of how easy it is to change what he/she is. I'm not saying the system in Diablo II was perfect, so I will try and provide what I think would be an optimal system for Diablo 3 below...
Some ideas for improvement...
Bear in mind that I really do like the introduction of runes as skill modifiers. That's awesome. That just adds a huge level of customization to the game. I think they realized that they bit off more than they could chew in balancing, and just got rid of skills to compensate. There HAS to be a way to incorporate this new system with the system of old, and have them work together in harmony. As of right now, it doesn't really make sense to watch a Monk fight a bunch of mobs, change his skill to heal, and then head back into battle. It's awkward, and Blizzard KNOWS they can do better than THAT nonsense.
In closing, I have to say that I really think a modification of the old skill system with some new friendly (but not too friendly) respecs is what this game sorely needs. I can't imagine wanting to keep playing this game for too long after finding my favorite class and beating the game. Diablo II survived and was so much fun for so long because of this skill system and specific items that rewarded you for focusing on building your Blizzard sorc (or whatever character) and taking the time to research how, where, and what. If they keep with this "all skills for every class" nonsense, I think those of us intelligent enough to understand why it isn't fun will move on rather quickly. Quite frankly, that's a lot of us, and that's a lot of future customers lost. It worries me greatly, because what this game was took such a nose dive for me in the last few months that it becomes more and more upsetting the more I learn. I am just one guy, and I don't claim to have all the answers. I hope you guys find some insight from this and hopefully together we might be able to change a few things :). Thanks for reading!
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