An interesting observation I've read is that Tyrael's sword, El'druin, passes straight through Malthael. It is said in the Book of Cain that El'druin cannot harm anyone or thing of righteous intent. Just something to think about.
Why would Death want to bring Tathamet? he doesn't want to destroy the heavens otherwise Tyrael would be in pieces right now.
I was thinking earlier about my hypothesis that Malthael wants to do to the Angiris Council what happened to the Prime Evils; have them all absorbed -- perhaps into the Black Soulstone, which can conveniently house Angels as well -- to restore balance. Perhaps that would mean Tyrael himself will be the cause of the End since, having given up his Angelic powers, his Aspect cannot be absorbed into the Black Soulstone to make it whole.
But what would happen if it were whole? Anu/Tathamet? Or would it completely cancel out the Prime Evils, stopping their cycle of carnage forever? If so, that could mean Tyrael is involved in the End of Days. Such a grim and ironic tragedy would be a fitting ending, I think, to the Diablo saga.
Quick Edit: Two things I noticed while rewatching the cinematic. One, it looks like Tyrael is hiding the Black Soulstone in a temple beneath a marshland. Sound familiar? Necromancers, anyone?
Also, when Malthael begins to reap Tyrael's soul, he watches it flow into his sickle, then abruptly looks at Tyrael (in surprise?) and casts him away, sparing him. Maybe he WAS trying to absorb his angelic essence and found it useless since Tyrael didn't have any?
In the Book of Cain, and according to Chris Metzen, the Worldstone still exists in some manner. Perhaps the Worldstone we know was only one "appendage" or aspect of it, since it is a multidimensional artifact. I wonder if Malthael might try to bring together the Black Soulstone, which contains the essence of Tathamet, with the Worldstone? Perhaps he will seek to imprison all of the Angiris Council alongside the Prime Evils? If we look at the prophecy, you'll realize we're only halfway through it, and the remainder of the Archangels (Auriel and Ithareal) haven't fallen yet.
But to what end would this serve? To restore Tathamet and Anu, thereby allowing them to battle once more and beget a new cycle of Heaven and Hell?
"All of this has happened before -- and will happen again."
That seems like a good theory but I feel it is outside of Trag'Oul's self. Reasoning being is that he has defended Sanctuary against both Heaven and Hell.
No, you're totally right. I can still see some Priests of Rathma allying themselves with Malthael in the misguided belief that preserving the Balance means serving the role of evil. At the same time though, Necromancers are supposedly the least corruptible of all the Nephalem. So might that mean that Malthael may actually not be doing something fundamentally wrong? Might he, indeed, be striking a balance in some way we don't yet know about that we will prevent, spelling the end of Sanctuary? That might mean the Nephalem themselves are bringing about the end.
Instead of Tathamet, I wonder if Death my refer instead to Trag'Oul, the symbol of the Necromancers? Like Tathamet, Trag'Oul is depicted as a large, dragon-like creature with sweeping wings. The Necromancers act to preserve balance in the world, but with the Burning Hells broken, anything resembling balance has been destroyed. Malthael may seek to unleash the Prime Evils to restore the Balance on Trag'Oul's behalf.
Its because you never actually beat Belial, and Kulles little structure was the only place he couldn't influence you, when he died the disruption ended and the illusion went on.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. Probably because I haven't played the game yet. Can you elaborate?
Also, who says Zoltun Kulle is dead? Like, dead-dead? He's technically immortal, right? Maybe we've simply defeated his body, but he might be out there, somewhere.
Added to the original post, and now that I think about it this would tie in directly to the Enchantress' backstory as Inarus is her "Prophet" and would also open up the possibility of Follower specific expansions
Reminds me of the Jeweler's claims at being a god an attempting to find a specific Jewel to fight a demon called the Dergest.
When I used the word "incarnation" I didn't mean reincarnate; but rather "iteration", "manifestation", or "version." The body he assumes when walking on Sanctuary. Sorry. I should have clarified that.
In short, it is implied he embodies one of the Gods of Xiansie -- the God of Thieves, to be exact. He was a trickster and adventurer, and for the past few centuries -- millenia? -- has traversed Sanctuary. He even claims to have met Zoltun Kulle!
H never gives you any straight answers but is a wily old coot who imparts a few nuggets of... wisdom. He has experienced all that is good and bad in the world, all its... dichotomies.
And is obsessed with finding a certain Jewel. A Jewel that imprisons a dread demon.
Just as Malthael became obsessed with finding the Worldstone, which eventually turned him mad.
Could Shen the Jeweler be Malthael's human incarnation in Sanctuary? That he's gone mad over the past 20 years searching Sanctuary for it, losing himself in the lie that is Shen?
How the hell did Mephisto and Diablo get trapped inside the Black Soulstone?
The Prime Evils' Banishment into the Abyss: A Theory
After the cataclysm that saw the destruction of Anu and Tathamet, their bodies gave rise to new beings embodying their respective potentials, albeit in diluted form. The High Heavens revolve around the Shining Arch, Anu's diamond spine. The Burning Hells owe their allagience and existence to the Greater Evils, whom embody seven aspects of Tathamet.
In the center is the "Heart of Creation" and Eye of Anu -- the Worldstone. It exists at the crossroads of all realities, including Heaven and Hell; the Abyss and Trang'Oul's realm; and all other artificial worlds created by Angels and Demons. It is Doorway and Key in one.
The spirits of Mephisto, Baal and Diablo were banished into the Dark Abyss, a layer of reality believed to be beyond the reach of anyone.
But I believe the Black Soulstone is attuned to one world in particular -- the Abyss.
I believe Diablo imparted his experience in the Soulstone, and all of Izual's information, to Adria, allowing her to traverse worlds spiritually. Thus she was able to enact some dread summoning akin to Lilith's in the Pandamonium event, binding the souls of the Prime Evils into the Black Soulstone, which manifests one tiny corner of the Abyss.
I'm making some 2am Chili right now and I'm waiting for everything to sautee. Damn dems good eats.
Quote from Brx »
So as I see it diablo just happened to play his cards very well but failed in the end (even at its state of power, which makes no senses to me but that is an other topic)
Doesn't it, though?
The Worldstone's influence kept humanity's Nephalem powers in check. With that destroyed, their legacy resurfaced in a scant few (the characters we play in the game). The Three Primes had always been destroyed by groups of talented warrior humans, but Diablo's gambit saw himself reincarnated as THE Prime Evil, embodying all the greater lords of Hell. What he failed to take into account was that Nephalem legacy awakening and pursuing him into Heaven.
Now we have a unified Prime Evil facing off against a group of warriors birthed from both Angels and Demons and embodying the best of each. The battle that took place at the Crystal Arch had to be titanic; I don't see how it survived the conflict at all.
Which brings me to the Worldstone itself. In the end, what did Baal really accomplish? Though he created a permanent portal between Heaven and Hell, he has unleashed the most powerful enemy Hell has ever faced!
Could Diablo have had an opportunity to take this into account? I mean, by the time he's in Heaven, Hell's numbers are decimated; he has no strong allies; and he's fighting Nephalem, which is Baal's fault! He's essentially alone. He's had his ass handed to him numerous times, so was becoming the Prime Evil really the solution to all these things?
I suppose you're right. Unless Diablo had yet another card up his sleeve, why go through all this trouble just to fail? Perhaps his failure is essentially "programmed" into the fabric of reality?
I've been doing some idle thinking about what I've seen about Diablo 3 and Diablo's goals; and pondering the Diablo cosmology and realworld mythologies. And I was wondering; has Diablo accomplish his aims? Hear me out.
Burning Hells vs High Heavens The Greater Evils' Motivations
Diablo's brothers Ball and Mephisto are hell-bent on destroying Heaven and its denizens; Baal for the sheer ecstasy of destruction, Mephisto because he just wants to see the world(s) burn. Diablo however is a maestro of terror and fear. Unlike Mephisto, he does not derive pleasure from conquest in and of itself, but rather the terror and leads up to it and its after effects.
Diablo has reached the top of the summit, bringing Heaven to its knees and corrupting the Crystal Arch. However, if he had succeeded in achieving Heaven's demise, the conquest would have become complete and there would be nothing left to do. In destroying Heaven he would destroy any motivation to exist; in destroying the Arch he would destroy himself.
But he didn't, and so the Arch survived, as does any future prospect of terror. Fear lives so long as does hope, and vice versa.
The Instinctive Eternal Conflict Thoughts on the cosmology
However, the Diablo we face is the sum total of all evil: The Prime Evil (ostensibly) seeks to tear friends and allies apart (Mephisto, Belial); seeks wonton destruction (Baal); sows fear and discord (Diablo); seeks to debase and demoralize the enemy (Azmodan, Andariel); and inflict pain (Duriel).
If all of this had been accomplished, neither Hell nor Heaven would remain. Which also makes me wonder about the "instinct" imbedded in both Angels and Demons. They came from nothingness (tohu wa-bohu, or ex nihilo), and apparently have the instinct to return to that initial state that birthed the One Anu, which manifests as war (or, in the greater scheme of things, perhaps a form of self-destruction. This theme is called chaoskampf in mythological academia). This pulls upon most every creation myth in the world, but most closely resembles Babylonian myth or Sumerian myth and the Enuma Elish.
Nephalem and Balance Diablo's symbiosis with Humanity
Taking all of this together, Diablo proves again to be unique among is demonic brethren. All of Hell wants to completely destroy Heaven, and with it see all of reality burn; Diablo, however, very well may want to break away from that strategy and simply pursue a never-ending cycle of terror and hope.
This cycle, however, pits him against the Nephalem. These beings achieve the balance necessary to stave off complete and utter destruction of Heaven. Which strikes a strange juxtaposition against the Eternal Conflict. The Conflict manifests Heaven's and Hell's inability to live together, whereas Inarius' and Lilith's rebellion saw the exact opposite, seeing a merge between the two. This merger brought about a world peopled by beings that are one step closer to the whole, a step closer to the all-encompassing Anu.
So we now have two competing theories: An instinct to achieve the nothingness that existed at the beginning of time, as manifest in the Eternal Conflict. And a yearning for unity, demonstrated by the birth of the Nephalem (which in turn birthed humanity). Psychologically speaking, these are comparable to the Thanatos Drive and Eros Drive, respectively.
These appear completely opposite and contradictory. Can both or either be true?
There's one more interesting theory from classical philosophy I might invoke to resolve this, if at least in a limited fashion. The phenomenon of entelechy. This is the continual becoming or striving. When this ends, motivation and meaning cease to exist, and that would be as true if someone achieved something just as much if they grew disinterested with achieving something.
In Summary
I believe Diablo achieved his goals. He spread terror throughout the three worlds. However, had he destroyed Heaven, there would no longer be any room for fear as hope and life would cease. Therefor, to continue being -- to continue to embody fear -- he must "fail', only to arise anew in another form.
Sorry, I feel I haven't properly explained myself here. These are just my thoughts and ramblings. I just really like philosophy and mythology. If you've made it this far, thanks for reading. Now go outside.
Is it just me, or do these Lore entries have a bit of a Lovecraftian edge to them? It's not something I'm decrying, of course; I think it's pretty neat.
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But what would happen if it were whole? Anu/Tathamet? Or would it completely cancel out the Prime Evils, stopping their cycle of carnage forever? If so, that could mean Tyrael is involved in the End of Days. Such a grim and ironic tragedy would be a fitting ending, I think, to the Diablo saga.
Quick Edit: Two things I noticed while rewatching the cinematic. One, it looks like Tyrael is hiding the Black Soulstone in a temple beneath a marshland. Sound familiar? Necromancers, anyone?
Also, when Malthael begins to reap Tyrael's soul, he watches it flow into his sickle, then abruptly looks at Tyrael (in surprise?) and casts him away, sparing him. Maybe he WAS trying to absorb his angelic essence and found it useless since Tyrael didn't have any?
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But to what end would this serve? To restore Tathamet and Anu, thereby allowing them to battle once more and beget a new cycle of Heaven and Hell?
"All of this has happened before -- and will happen again."
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Also, who says Zoltun Kulle is dead? Like, dead-dead? He's technically immortal, right? Maybe we've simply defeated his body, but he might be out there, somewhere.
Man I can't wait to play this game. =[
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Connection between that and the Black Soulstone?
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Did... did you miss the whole thing with, y'know... Tyrael becoming human?
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In short, it is implied he embodies one of the Gods of Xiansie -- the God of Thieves, to be exact. He was a trickster and adventurer, and for the past few centuries -- millenia? -- has traversed Sanctuary. He even claims to have met Zoltun Kulle!
H never gives you any straight answers but is a wily old coot who imparts a few nuggets of... wisdom. He has experienced all that is good and bad in the world, all its... dichotomies.
And is obsessed with finding a certain Jewel. A Jewel that imprisons a dread demon.
Just as Malthael became obsessed with finding the Worldstone, which eventually turned him mad.
Could Shen the Jeweler be Malthael's human incarnation in Sanctuary? That he's gone mad over the past 20 years searching Sanctuary for it, losing himself in the lie that is Shen?
Discuss@!
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After the cataclysm that saw the destruction of Anu and Tathamet, their bodies gave rise to new beings embodying their respective potentials, albeit in diluted form. The High Heavens revolve around the Shining Arch, Anu's diamond spine. The Burning Hells owe their allagience and existence to the Greater Evils, whom embody seven aspects of Tathamet.
In the center is the "Heart of Creation" and Eye of Anu -- the Worldstone. It exists at the crossroads of all realities, including Heaven and Hell; the Abyss and Trang'Oul's realm; and all other artificial worlds created by Angels and Demons. It is Doorway and Key in one.
The spirits of Mephisto, Baal and Diablo were banished into the Dark Abyss, a layer of reality believed to be beyond the reach of anyone.
But I believe the Black Soulstone is attuned to one world in particular -- the Abyss.
I believe Diablo imparted his experience in the Soulstone, and all of Izual's information, to Adria, allowing her to traverse worlds spiritually. Thus she was able to enact some dread summoning akin to Lilith's in the Pandamonium event, binding the souls of the Prime Evils into the Black Soulstone, which manifests one tiny corner of the Abyss.
At least, that's how I explain it away.
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Doesn't it, though?
The Worldstone's influence kept humanity's Nephalem powers in check. With that destroyed, their legacy resurfaced in a scant few (the characters we play in the game). The Three Primes had always been destroyed by groups of talented warrior humans, but Diablo's gambit saw himself reincarnated as THE Prime Evil, embodying all the greater lords of Hell. What he failed to take into account was that Nephalem legacy awakening and pursuing him into Heaven.
Now we have a unified Prime Evil facing off against a group of warriors birthed from both Angels and Demons and embodying the best of each. The battle that took place at the Crystal Arch had to be titanic; I don't see how it survived the conflict at all.
Which brings me to the Worldstone itself. In the end, what did Baal really accomplish? Though he created a permanent portal between Heaven and Hell, he has unleashed the most powerful enemy Hell has ever faced!
Could Diablo have had an opportunity to take this into account? I mean, by the time he's in Heaven, Hell's numbers are decimated; he has no strong allies; and he's fighting Nephalem, which is Baal's fault! He's essentially alone. He's had his ass handed to him numerous times, so was becoming the Prime Evil really the solution to all these things?
I suppose you're right. Unless Diablo had yet another card up his sleeve, why go through all this trouble just to fail? Perhaps his failure is essentially "programmed" into the fabric of reality?
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Burning Hells vs High Heavens
The Greater Evils' Motivations
Diablo's brothers Ball and Mephisto are hell-bent on destroying Heaven and its denizens; Baal for the sheer ecstasy of destruction, Mephisto because he just wants to see the world(s) burn. Diablo however is a maestro of terror and fear. Unlike Mephisto, he does not derive pleasure from conquest in and of itself, but rather the terror and leads up to it and its after effects.
Diablo has reached the top of the summit, bringing Heaven to its knees and corrupting the Crystal Arch. However, if he had succeeded in achieving Heaven's demise, the conquest would have become complete and there would be nothing left to do. In destroying Heaven he would destroy any motivation to exist; in destroying the Arch he would destroy himself.
But he didn't, and so the Arch survived, as does any future prospect of terror. Fear lives so long as does hope, and vice versa.
The Instinctive Eternal Conflict
Thoughts on the cosmology
However, the Diablo we face is the sum total of all evil: The Prime Evil (ostensibly) seeks to tear friends and allies apart (Mephisto, Belial); seeks wonton destruction (Baal); sows fear and discord (Diablo); seeks to debase and demoralize the enemy (Azmodan, Andariel); and inflict pain (Duriel).
If all of this had been accomplished, neither Hell nor Heaven would remain. Which also makes me wonder about the "instinct" imbedded in both Angels and Demons. They came from nothingness (tohu wa-bohu, or ex nihilo), and apparently have the instinct to return to that initial state that birthed the One Anu, which manifests as war (or, in the greater scheme of things, perhaps a form of self-destruction. This theme is called chaoskampf in mythological academia). This pulls upon most every creation myth in the world, but most closely resembles Babylonian myth or Sumerian myth and the Enuma Elish.
Nephalem and Balance
Diablo's symbiosis with Humanity
Taking all of this together, Diablo proves again to be unique among is demonic brethren. All of Hell wants to completely destroy Heaven, and with it see all of reality burn; Diablo, however, very well may want to break away from that strategy and simply pursue a never-ending cycle of terror and hope.
This cycle, however, pits him against the Nephalem. These beings achieve the balance necessary to stave off complete and utter destruction of Heaven. Which strikes a strange juxtaposition against the Eternal Conflict. The Conflict manifests Heaven's and Hell's inability to live together, whereas Inarius' and Lilith's rebellion saw the exact opposite, seeing a merge between the two. This merger brought about a world peopled by beings that are one step closer to the whole, a step closer to the all-encompassing Anu.
So we now have two competing theories: An instinct to achieve the nothingness that existed at the beginning of time, as manifest in the Eternal Conflict. And a yearning for unity, demonstrated by the birth of the Nephalem (which in turn birthed humanity). Psychologically speaking, these are comparable to the Thanatos Drive and Eros Drive, respectively.
These appear completely opposite and contradictory. Can both or either be true?
There's one more interesting theory from classical philosophy I might invoke to resolve this, if at least in a limited fashion. The phenomenon of entelechy. This is the continual becoming or striving. When this ends, motivation and meaning cease to exist, and that would be as true if someone achieved something just as much if they grew disinterested with achieving something.
In Summary
I believe Diablo achieved his goals. He spread terror throughout the three worlds. However, had he destroyed Heaven, there would no longer be any room for fear as hope and life would cease. Therefor, to continue being -- to continue to embody fear -- he must "fail', only to arise anew in another form.
Sorry, I feel I haven't properly explained myself here. These are just my thoughts and ramblings. I just really like philosophy and mythology. If you've made it this far, thanks for reading. Now go outside.
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Anyways, I always wondered if Kormac the Templar might be the D2 Paladin.
EDIT Nevermind, I see now you actually posted this well before I ever did.