I've experienced what you're talking about in group play, we had a rend barbarion (running pain enhancer) + I was playing HOTA with pain enhancer in a 67 Grift (3man) and it was impossible, it just lagged for eternity, but in solo play I've not been having any issues. Both Rend and BK/Wastes seem to be able to go above 70, but perhaps your lag issue is also the reason more of the top players are moving away from Rend.
I've not tried going above 60 in solo play as I pretty much always play in groups now, but when I was soloing I didn't experience big lag issues, only really happens in the 65+ group rifts, especially that one 67 we did where it was completely unplayable.
Getting optimal (ish) gear is the easy bit, the rest comes from leveling gems and paragon levels... Makes a fucking massive difference, that said I have no idea how BK/Wastes is even working given how low damage the spec is compared to Rend/Hota.
Have you tried IK 6 + 2 Wastes Rend build? I know BK/Wastes is starting to dominate the top of the leaderboards but I have tried all 3 of the popular specs and by far the easiest to beat a 60 for me was the rend spec, the damage seems much much higher and is doable without a great rift.
I didn't have any lucky pylons or great mob density and 60 was fairly easy, I was around Para 570 at the time. I'm not entirely sure how people are even reaching 70 with the BK build as it seems lacking in damage compared to the others, unless you're relying on a godly rift to fully exploit tornados.
Specific advice, your gems are really low level and you don't have a Hellfire neck, level your gems and make Hellfire necks until you get a good one.
I found that survival wise F+R caused big issues at 50, maybe it's doable when you're sitting on 800 Paragon level but I got completely murdered, even at over 120mil toughness you can get one-shot by some mobs in 51 rifts without Unity. The damage on F+R is without question awesome, but the issues to survive are real..
And this is with an Ancient String of Ears and Eye of Etlitch equipped (37% ranged reduction, 25% melee reduction, 11% elite reduction) etc.
I've seen so many barbarians get stuck at the 49-52 range using a F+R setup purely because they get slaughtered.. It's probably doable with a higher Paragon level since your toughness and damage are both much higher than someone at lower levels, people don't realise how much of a difference Paragon makes when discussing this stuff.
1. All of my damage is physical and for Greater Rifting all barbarians are playing Physical, there is no situation where you would need to split elements outside of T6 speed farming where it is completely irrelevant anyway.
2. I currently have 46% crit and 600% CHD on my Barbarian with my current build.
I could trade the 97% crit I have on my neck for 20% physical damage and see an increase in damage, or I could juggle stats around to bump up crit and increase the value of that CHD. I've shown you the math and I don't really understand what you're trying to argue?
Whether it is 100% or not, the fact of that statement remains true. 20% elemental damage is not 20% damage increase.
If I'm running Physical damage skills then yes it is 20% damage. Whirlwind (Blood Funnel) and Rend (Bloodbath/Blood Lust), Bash (Punish), Furious Charge (Merciless Assault) are the most commonly used abilities for the various Wastes builds at the moment and all of them are physical.
20% Physical damage is 20% damage.. If my attack is doing 100m before the 20% Physical then it will be doing 120m with the 20%. A further 20% (on neck) would boost that to 140m damage (a 16.66% damage increase over 120m).
There are 2 viable builds right now, one of them using Bul Kathos weapons and the other using IK, and since Stone of Jordan is no longer an optimal ring for Barbarian we can safely assume the only two slots a Barbarian will use with % elemental damage is Bracers and Neck.
That means the maximum we will see on our gear is going to be 40% element.
Lacunis are like Unicorns, getting all the right stats. I've been searching for a good while, I have them with % lightning damage but finding them with Physical is proving impossible, spent probably 50% of all my bloodshards in S3 on bracers trying to get those.
Yeah and you can get a much higher percentage of one stat than the other...? Relative increase of the stat (16%) in the first example provided by Liqurius, the math seems a little quirky. You do it this way= 400%*50% and somehow get 300%? 50% chance to critical for 400% damage is a x2 damage on average. The formulas are definitely off here. Going up to 500% critical hit damage is a 2.5x modifier, which is a 25% increase, not a 16.6%.
As for elemental damage, as well as the previous % from Bigbazz seem a little wonky. Not including factors is exactly why this is a problem, especially when determining damage.
However I can do the same thing as you:
100 x 1.2 = 120 (20%)
100 x 1.4 = 140 (20% increase, but 16.67% relative increase).
There are two points from this conversation. #1 is, is that elemental % damage decreases in relative value significantly faster and at two items @20% rolls. In your analysis, it takes 600% (or 450% from items) CHD to get to the same level of relative damage increase in terms of stats, which requires significantly more items. Honestly, the only time 20% is superior is when you have none of it and have already managed to reach 600% CHD at over 50% CHC, which I believe is impossible, discussing amulets in a vacuum. You're also confusing relative value versus absolute value, this is the formula's purpose that you are utilizing: 50% CHD at 50% CHC is always a 25% increase in damage as the base damage always increases by the same amount.
The point is 100% CHD on an amulet holds significantly more value than 20% on an amulet. Especially because the caps for damage statistics on amulets tends to be highest. You can get 20% on rings/other slots, but you can not get CHD at this level for this item slot. That in consideration with the fact that if you have elemental % damage, the odds are that you do not have 600% CHD, thus making it better anyway. This does not even take into consideration the fact that every single skill must be of that element type, which isn't always the same.
I also mentioned that Elemental % damage scales additively with itself in the first line of my last post, your whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% chance to crit, while you're comparing that with a real situation. By all means if you have 100% chance to crit like in my simple example of the scaling above then Crit % damage is going to be considerably stronger.
At 50% CC your numbers are
100 = 50
200 = 33.3
300 = 25
400 = 20
500 = 16.66
Elemental %
20% - 20%
40% - 16.66%
But then consider that you may well not have 50% crit, you could be at 45% crit and the neck roll you just spend 60 souls/gems on has only given you a 90% CHD bonus. This is the real world and not the perfect world, and in the real world we don't always get exactly what we want. What is for sure though is that getting 20% elemental damage bonus is a lot easier than getting 100% CHD.
As I said in my very first post that you challenged
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases.
Say goodbye to that attack speed, say hello to Crit damage or % element bonus. I'd settle for the first nice roll you get of either, though CHD leaves you with more options, in my experience with the necks I have the % element is worth slightly more damage, within the region of about 2-3%.
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases. Not worth it for the AS though, it's just too low a value and is only even useful if it allows you to pass a certain breakpoint.
I don't know how elemental percentage is a higher damage increase. At 50% critical strike chance, 100% CHD, adds 50% damage effectively (even at half of this amount, it's still more). Whereas with ele%, the first bonus is the most significant, with more and more of it becoming less of a relative increase. I'd say primary stat isn't as good, but for amulets 100% CHD is king.
It's because CHD is additive with itself and multiplicative with other stats, just as elemental damage is.
Imagine your base damage is 10, you have 100% crit chance.
10 x 100% CHD = 20 = 100% increase
200% = 30 = 50% increase
300% = 40 = 33.33% increase
400% = 50 = 25% increase
500% = 60 = 20% increase
600% = 70 = 16.66%
It's obviously quite a bit more complex than this with the scale factors between all of the damage stats, but you see that 100% CHD damage isn't always the same as 50% damage at 50% crit chance and 20% elemental damage can be superior depending on these factors.
Say goodbye to that attack speed, say hello to Crit damage or % element bonus. I'd settle for the first nice roll you get of either, though CHD leaves you with more options, in my experience with the necks I have the % element is worth slightly more damage, within the region of about 2-3%.
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases. Not worth it for the AS though, it's just too low a value and is only even useful if it allows you to pass a certain breakpoint.
I wouldn't put 12% movement speed on your boots, because you can have 15% whirlwind damage which is more valuable than the strength you gain from Paragon points. The 15% damage does effect the Dust Devils from the 6piece set bonus. Also, in GR as mentioned Life per Fury is quite weak, where as Blood Funnel will instantly heal you to full as you pass through a large pack of mobs, meaning that it provides insanely higher healing while clearing the rift.
The lightning rune is nice for T6 clearing and I use it for that as Fury can be low, but I don't think it's viable for GR where you need the healing and Fury is less of an issue anyway. The best Rend runes are Bloodbath, Bloodlust and the cold one (for 10% damage taken buff), and for clearing a Rift the Bloodbath rune is king due to how much spread damage it does once it triggers on a large pack, so it doesnt make much sense to switch to a Lightning build where you would lose both damage and healing, just for some extra Fury.
You gain Fury from damage taken, so you will be swimming in it during Higher GR anyway for 90% of the time you can even benefit from Berserker Rage without needing the Lightning rune..
Why does it not show the damage if i am on physical i never see damage increase? i think this ring sucks.. 4 seconds is nothing then u have to wait over 30 sec again before physical comes in again ? wow... a stone of jordan is alot better and gives u dmg to elites way better against bosses if u ask me, i think a skull grasp is better since u have dmg nonstop and not for a few second a useless buff u dont notice anyway...
25% uptime on a 150-200% damage buff, combined with perfect primary stats (STR/CC/CD/Socket)... Well if you think that sucks then sure go ahead and ignore it while everyone else uses it.
I don't understand what you are referring to Bigbazz? If you use WOTB during the physical buff, how does that give you two rotations of the physical buff? And why would you want to use Rend during the lightning buff? Most people that use Rend use the physical rune.
You use Rend during the lightning so that you don't have to use it during the Physical, so that you spend the whole physical generating dust devils while rend ticks away. Using WOTB at that point is when you don't have Perma WOTB. A lot of people (myself included) are running Bul Kathos weapons instead of the 3rd piece of IK for the perma WOTB, so using WOTB at the right point is quite important with this ring.
Either by choice or lack of choice (due to drops), BK weapons are very strong anyway.
Convention of Elements also lets you stack buffs on top of it to increase potency (like Wrath of the Berserker), giving it more value than the "average" of the 25% uptime, if you rend on the lightning buff and then use WOTB just as the Physical buff comes on you will be able to get 2 rotations of the physical buff during WOTB to maximise efficiency.
it's also a bonus that is present on non-elite packs and so has more of a broad value than SOJ. On top of that, you're only losing a secondary stat on the COE ring to get the bonus, not a primary and so that means you can have ideal base stats with no penalty.
Convention of Elements is the king now, the damage bonus is just too strong to let go.
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I did the conquest using Hota without the IK set too, it's an easy ticket to win given how hard Hota hits even without IK.
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Lag enhancer
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I've experienced what you're talking about in group play, we had a rend barbarion (running pain enhancer) + I was playing HOTA with pain enhancer in a 67 Grift (3man) and it was impossible, it just lagged for eternity, but in solo play I've not been having any issues. Both Rend and BK/Wastes seem to be able to go above 70, but perhaps your lag issue is also the reason more of the top players are moving away from Rend.
I've not tried going above 60 in solo play as I pretty much always play in groups now, but when I was soloing I didn't experience big lag issues, only really happens in the 65+ group rifts, especially that one 67 we did where it was completely unplayable.
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Alkaizer is also what, 1100 Paragon level?
Getting optimal (ish) gear is the easy bit, the rest comes from leveling gems and paragon levels... Makes a fucking massive difference, that said I have no idea how BK/Wastes is even working given how low damage the spec is compared to Rend/Hota.
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Have you tried IK 6 + 2 Wastes Rend build? I know BK/Wastes is starting to dominate the top of the leaderboards but I have tried all 3 of the popular specs and by far the easiest to beat a 60 for me was the rend spec, the damage seems much much higher and is doable without a great rift.
I didn't have any lucky pylons or great mob density and 60 was fairly easy, I was around Para 570 at the time. I'm not entirely sure how people are even reaching 70 with the BK build as it seems lacking in damage compared to the others, unless you're relying on a godly rift to fully exploit tornados.
Specific advice, your gems are really low level and you don't have a Hellfire neck, level your gems and make Hellfire necks until you get a good one.
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I found that survival wise F+R caused big issues at 50, maybe it's doable when you're sitting on 800 Paragon level but I got completely murdered, even at over 120mil toughness you can get one-shot by some mobs in 51 rifts without Unity. The damage on F+R is without question awesome, but the issues to survive are real..
And this is with an Ancient String of Ears and Eye of Etlitch equipped (37% ranged reduction, 25% melee reduction, 11% elite reduction) etc.
I've seen so many barbarians get stuck at the 49-52 range using a F+R setup purely because they get slaughtered.. It's probably doable with a higher Paragon level since your toughness and damage are both much higher than someone at lower levels, people don't realise how much of a difference Paragon makes when discussing this stuff.
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Well to counter your point
1. All of my damage is physical and for Greater Rifting all barbarians are playing Physical, there is no situation where you would need to split elements outside of T6 speed farming where it is completely irrelevant anyway.
2. I currently have 46% crit and 600% CHD on my Barbarian with my current build.
I could trade the 97% crit I have on my neck for 20% physical damage and see an increase in damage, or I could juggle stats around to bump up crit and increase the value of that CHD. I've shown you the math and I don't really understand what you're trying to argue?
If I'm running Physical damage skills then yes it is 20% damage. Whirlwind (Blood Funnel) and Rend (Bloodbath/Blood Lust), Bash (Punish), Furious Charge (Merciless Assault) are the most commonly used abilities for the various Wastes builds at the moment and all of them are physical.
20% Physical damage is 20% damage.. If my attack is doing 100m before the 20% Physical then it will be doing 120m with the 20%. A further 20% (on neck) would boost that to 140m damage (a 16.66% damage increase over 120m).
There are 2 viable builds right now, one of them using Bul Kathos weapons and the other using IK, and since Stone of Jordan is no longer an optimal ring for Barbarian we can safely assume the only two slots a Barbarian will use with % elemental damage is Bracers and Neck.
That means the maximum we will see on our gear is going to be 40% element.
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Lacunis are like Unicorns, getting all the right stats. I've been searching for a good while, I have them with % lightning damage but finding them with Physical is proving impossible, spent probably 50% of all my bloodshards in S3 on bracers trying to get those.
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I also mentioned that Elemental % damage scales additively with itself in the first line of my last post, your whole post is based on data that was shown at 100% chance to crit, while you're comparing that with a real situation. By all means if you have 100% chance to crit like in my simple example of the scaling above then Crit % damage is going to be considerably stronger.
At 50% CC your numbers are
100 = 50
200 = 33.3
300 = 25
400 = 20
500 = 16.66
Elemental %
20% - 20%
40% - 16.66%
But then consider that you may well not have 50% crit, you could be at 45% crit and the neck roll you just spend 60 souls/gems on has only given you a 90% CHD bonus. This is the real world and not the perfect world, and in the real world we don't always get exactly what we want. What is for sure though is that getting 20% elemental damage bonus is a lot easier than getting 100% CHD.
As I said in my very first post that you challenged
And relative it is
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It's because CHD is additive with itself and multiplicative with other stats, just as elemental damage is.
Imagine your base damage is 10, you have 100% crit chance.
10 x 100% CHD = 20 = 100% increase
200% = 30 = 50% increase
300% = 40 = 33.33% increase
400% = 50 = 25% increase
500% = 60 = 20% increase
600% = 70 = 16.66%
It's obviously quite a bit more complex than this with the scale factors between all of the damage stats, but you see that 100% CHD damage isn't always the same as 50% damage at 50% crit chance and 20% elemental damage can be superior depending on these factors.
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Say goodbye to that attack speed, say hello to Crit damage or % element bonus. I'd settle for the first nice roll you get of either, though CHD leaves you with more options, in my experience with the necks I have the % element is worth slightly more damage, within the region of about 2-3%.
It's all relative though, if you have a higher base % crit then the value of CHD increases. Not worth it for the AS though, it's just too low a value and is only even useful if it allows you to pass a certain breakpoint.
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I wouldn't put 12% movement speed on your boots, because you can have 15% whirlwind damage which is more valuable than the strength you gain from Paragon points. The 15% damage does effect the Dust Devils from the 6piece set bonus. Also, in GR as mentioned Life per Fury is quite weak, where as Blood Funnel will instantly heal you to full as you pass through a large pack of mobs, meaning that it provides insanely higher healing while clearing the rift.
The lightning rune is nice for T6 clearing and I use it for that as Fury can be low, but I don't think it's viable for GR where you need the healing and Fury is less of an issue anyway. The best Rend runes are Bloodbath, Bloodlust and the cold one (for 10% damage taken buff), and for clearing a Rift the Bloodbath rune is king due to how much spread damage it does once it triggers on a large pack, so it doesnt make much sense to switch to a Lightning build where you would lose both damage and healing, just for some extra Fury.
You gain Fury from damage taken, so you will be swimming in it during Higher GR anyway for 90% of the time you can even benefit from Berserker Rage without needing the Lightning rune..
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25% uptime on a 150-200% damage buff, combined with perfect primary stats (STR/CC/CD/Socket)... Well if you think that sucks then sure go ahead and ignore it while everyone else uses it.
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You use Rend during the lightning so that you don't have to use it during the Physical, so that you spend the whole physical generating dust devils while rend ticks away. Using WOTB at that point is when you don't have Perma WOTB. A lot of people (myself included) are running Bul Kathos weapons instead of the 3rd piece of IK for the perma WOTB, so using WOTB at the right point is quite important with this ring.
Either by choice or lack of choice (due to drops), BK weapons are very strong anyway.
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Convention of Elements also lets you stack buffs on top of it to increase potency (like Wrath of the Berserker), giving it more value than the "average" of the 25% uptime, if you rend on the lightning buff and then use WOTB just as the Physical buff comes on you will be able to get 2 rotations of the physical buff during WOTB to maximise efficiency.
it's also a bonus that is present on non-elite packs and so has more of a broad value than SOJ. On top of that, you're only losing a secondary stat on the COE ring to get the bonus, not a primary and so that means you can have ideal base stats with no penalty.
Convention of Elements is the king now, the damage bonus is just too strong to let go.