Skill Swapping and Rune Changes

  • #21
    Nice. I hope that this change has come in the next update. In fact... I'm crazy for the next update.
  • #22
    Not sure if people mentioned this or not, but does choosing a skill (on an empty slot) count as skill swapping? If so then the in town thing would stuck seeing how you would need to go there each level you get a new skill, assuming you want to use the new skill you got.

    They should just add a cooldown to skill swapping, atleast in the outside world/dungeons. However in town there would be no cooldown. This would still let you swap skills when needed, such as changing your mind about a skill you wanted to test and such. The cooldown would apply to each skill slot individually ofcourse.
  • #23
    The route of the problem isnt skill swapping its skill limiting... having only 6 active skill slots is creating all this controversy. Just my two cents.
  • #24
    To be perfectly honestly, I am getting so tired of reading all this drib drab, this dead horse has been beaten enough. Why is there even resistance to the skill swapping possiblities and the eventual creation of macro programs that will allow you to use more than 6 skills at a time. Why are you babies fighting and helping Blizzard with making this release more Console freindly? Why are you offering solutions and opinions that will further limit the possibilities of this release, and help make this game MORE console friendly? Its the direction of Blizzard in wanting this game to be playable on consoles that is limiting its release capabilities on the platform that made them their billions. Im not even bitter that Blizzard is doing this its a direction which was inevitable, what I am bitter is that they are releasing the Console version of this game onto the computer as well.
  • #25
    To be perfectly honestly, I am getting so tired of reading all this drib drab, this dead horse has been beaten enough. Why is there even resistance to the skill swapping possiblities and the eventual creation of macro programs that will allow you to use more than 6 skills at a time. Why are you babies fighting and helping Blizzard with making this release more Console freindly? Why are you offering solutions and opinions that will further limit the possibilities of this release, and help make this game MORE console friendly? Its the direction of Blizzard in wanting this game to be playable on consoles that is limiting its release capabilities on the platform that made them their billions. Im not even bitter that Blizzard is doing this its a direction which was inevitable, what I am bitter with is that they are releasing the Console version of this game onto the computer as well. Thats just how I see it.


    Maybe im dead wrong, but its just so blatantly obvious, and to be frank I feel alittle cheated.

    Just my two cents.
  • #26
    Please note that the online item database is pulled directly from the game files (yeah, cool huh?), so the existence of unattuned runes only suggests that the build they are playing with has the item in it, not that they are being used or plan to use them. It does not mean: "The presence of unattuned runes on the item page seemed to suggest that the team was going ahead with the implementation of the system".

    It's like taking a look at a beta and seeing a feedback button on all the new features and concluding, "Oh, this feedback button must be a part of the application when it's released!"
  • #27
    Quote from Darvil

    Given we can use only 6 skills out of 25-30, been free to swap skills is a must, else we would have to make 5-6 barbs just to be able to see all the skills.

    I see that as a good thing. With the current system, why would anyone ever build more than one char of each class? Create a Barb, level him up, then keep a couple of gear setups in the stash for different builds; then you'll never have to create another Barb again. Sounds a bit crappy to me.

    And I agree with the Hoboman's point. Skill swapping should be restricted to town, EXCEPT when you level up. When you level up inside a dungeon, you can swap your skills once (so you can try out the skill[s] that you got). Then if you don't like them, you can return to town and switch them back, or you can keep killing and wait 'till you level up again to swap the skills back.

    Quote from jokeeeer

    My solution to the skillswapping issue would be to give the actual skills a cd when they are swapped equal to its own duration with a minimum cd of lets say 10 sec. So for example if you would swap in a skill with 2 minute cd like Volcano it would be on its cooldown when loaded to the bar and therefor unusable for 2 minutes and if you would swap in Cleave it would be on a 10 second cd before it could be used. This would remove all the macro abuses as well as extending your skillbar or using a situational skill like a heal when youre about to die. 2 minutes might even be to long you could have the cooldown be 10 sec minimum and 30 seconds maximum.

    That would take longer than just going to town, if the main benefit is to try out new skills.

    @Instinct: I lol'ed at your post. I could write about all the PC-exclusive games that lack the so-called 'freedom' you clamour for...but I can't be arsed. If every game that doesn't have that 'freedom' is a kowtow to consoles.....then, man.....there's been an awful lot of kowtowing in the last....what....decade? Two decades?
  • #28
    They should seriously take a page out the book of Guildwars 1 here. Get rid of the town portals completely (I don't know why they're back in) and if you then restrict skill swapping to town only, that means skill swapping can only occur from waypoint to waypoint at most, hence eliminating swapping skills for a dangerous fight completely! In fact, it becomes sort of a mini-game of choosing the right skills for the next part of the game to be able to progress.

    I loved the open skill/stat swapping system in GW all the more because I knew it was balanced - I knew it was just part of the challenge. You had to choose the right skills to get through a certain part of the game. Sure, most of it could be done with just your cookie-cutter build, but you still had to switch out 1-3 skills each "mission" to be succesful. Managing your heroes (read: followers) made it even more complicated and interesting.

    Now, I'm not saying D3 should be like that, because imo Diablo is all about freedom - you choose the build you want to play. So it shouldn't be like where you have to pick certain builds to be able to get through a part, then completely change your strategy for the next part. But this kind of system does prevent any kind of swapping for a certain fight, because it forces you to think for the long run and still allows freedom of choice.

    Honestly, if there's going to be even the slightest way to cheat with this in D3 it will feel like cheat paradise to me. It just shouldn't be there, because it's one of those things you just over-react to. I'd feel like I'd have to use it to stay on top, but using it is like ruining any and all immersion in the game. :/

    Seriously, I was okay with their earlier decision to get rid of TP's completely. Stick with it, Blizzard.
    This signature has been edited by Macros: 25 August 2010 - 04:00 PM
  • #29
    why would skill swapping be something negative? in pvp maybe but for a pve team i think it is: the more the better
    every bonus to the gameplay should be boosted imo
    DEMON HUNTER
  • #30
    Going back to town isn't a big deal, but having players using programs that allow them use of all of their skills simultaniously is....so just make people go back to town, it takes 10 secs!

    I want to experiment with skills too but I don't want to be forced to use more than 6 active skills because thats what would be best if you could instantly swap them out always.

    A time delay after taking damage still wouldn't make me happy because it would allow players to do it in PvP (especially WD who can go invis for 10 sec w/ a rune).

    Maybe they could make it so you could do it up to lve 20 or so then make it so you can only do it at a vendor.

    I want them to add a progressive (huge gold cost at lve 60) gold cost to switching skills so that it gives toons more of a perminant feel along with taking gold out of the economy.
  • #31
    Also to everyone who says there should be a cast time or delay to use the skill let me ask you something.

    Wouldn't that be the same thing as having a casting time to TP back to town swap the skill then come back?
  • #32
    I understand the need for some restriction on the skill swapping abuse, but the most important thing for me is unlimited and unrestricted swapping while leveling. You're getting a new active or passive every level, so I want to be able to try everything on the fly. I even want to try all rune effects, because I can't be sure an effect is crap or awesome just from looking at the official skill calculator.
  • #33
    Switching on the fly with a cd instead of going back to town allows you to still fight monsters using your other skills and to move towards your next quest, i.e it doesnt take you out of the experience like going back to town does. So yes there is a distincive difference between a cd system and a forcing someone to go back to town.

    If their design philosophy is for you to have 6 skills active at once then they need a system to restrict people from using more skills, if its not their design then its not needed, and afaik at this time it is part of their design to limit people to using 6 skills (also I would imagine that in Arena you wouldnt be allowed to swap skills at all once the battle starts, dont know if this is stated anywhere).
  • #34
    I hope they will implement a system that will prevent in combat skill swapping at higher levels, but puts no restriction on experimentation at lower levels.

    My suggestion for such a system would be a cooldown on swapping skills. This cooldown will be 0 between levels 1-30 and will start at 1 minute at level 31, going all the way up to a 30 minute cooldown at level 60.

    Or an even simpler solution would be to activate the in-town-only limitation in Inferno only. This will let people experiment while leveling, but not while farming.


    This the best idea I've heard so far... Please make it also on the official forums !!

    What I like about it is replayability. I makes me want to build and lvl up more than one wizard for e.g.

    N
  • #35
    Cauldron of Jordan and Nephilim Cube ==> eliminate need to go back to town so often to unload lootz.

    Skill swapping restricted to in-town only ==> clicks the 'undo' button on the previous statement.

    However, I believe this new addition will be much less of a hassle than it used to be in D2 when you would fill up every 5 minutes, especially in early levels when you grab everything to sell for gold. Considering how import gold will be in this game compared to its predecessor, adding the cauldron/cube to get your hands on gold/crafting goods easier belittles the already minimal grief over having to go back to town to quick change skills.

    As for a cooldown, screw that noise. I would be pissed off if I went back to town, accidentally traded out my Spirit generator attack for a second Mantra and had to wait 5 minutes to correct it. A cooldown on the recall stone is more understandable... If you get to a waypoint, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to go change skills quick without having to wait on a timer from your last spell switch. A cooldown on the recall stone at least leaves you stranded knee-deep for a little while until you can come back to adjust your skills.

    Bottom line is that we are used to going back to town from the previous game for other reasons, and we will be going back to town often enough anyway to stash loot and craft. Would it be cool to just skill swap on the fly? Yes. But, without a in/out of combat toggle mechanic in the game, simple macros will allow people to swap skills and runes seamlessly during any fight they wanted, thus eliminating some character build customization principles... If you can use ANY spell at ANY time and they are all level 60 spells with ANY rune you want, then what we have my friends, are cookie cutter characters constantly cluttering cathedral catacombs.
    // as i started typing that i had to keep goin with the c's.


    So yeah, in my opinion, send us to town to change spells and put a 1-2 minute cooldown on the stone of recall.

    Edit: I just read about another possible solution elsewhere (here). Didn't read what they were saying yet but an option in the poll is to lock skills only in certain areas (boss fights and other group instances, random events, pvp arena, etc.). Also possibly restrict skill swapping to town-only in the later difficulties of the game (Inferno, possible Hell mode also). After everything is unlocked, you will probably start leaning toward a few set skills that you like using the most, and you will probably want to go back to town before switching game plans anyway.

    Possibly contradicting some ideas from the pre-edit post, this solution seems very reasonable, practical, logical..
    Does anybody really know what time it is?
    Does anybody really care?
  • #36
    I'm not sure what I think about the unattuned rune system, but I love the idea of going to town to switch skills. Being able to respec easily is a good feature, because it lets you experiment and fine tune your build without a lot of unnecessary hassle. But I think the point should be to find a build you like and then have incentive to stick with. Being able to change out skills instantly anytime just seems like to much.

    Every dungeon and boss encounter would have to be designed with a challenge level accounting for each character being able to optimize skills on the fly. So people who aren't changing their skills out constantly would always be underpowered with instant, unlimited skill swapping available.

    In short:

    Fighting through dungeons, then fine tuning your skill build after = fun.

    Fighting through dungeons and stopping every few minutes to adjust skills to stay competitive = lame and tedious.

    Skill tuning in town and at level up only please! LOL!
  • #37
    Quote from Instinct

    To be perfectly honestly, I am getting so tired of reading all this drib drab, this dead horse has been beaten enough. Why is there even resistance to the skill swapping possiblities and the eventual creation of macro programs that will allow you to use more than 6 skills at a time. Why are you babies fighting and helping Blizzard with making this release more Console freindly? Why are you offering solutions and opinions that will further limit the possibilities of this release, and help make this game MORE console friendly? Its the direction of Blizzard in wanting this game to be playable on consoles that is limiting its release capabilities on the platform that made them their billions. Im not even bitter that Blizzard is doing this its a direction which was inevitable, what I am bitter with is that they are releasing the Console version of this game onto the computer as well. Thats just how I see it.


    Maybe im dead wrong, but its just so blatantly obvious, and to be frank I feel alittle cheated.

    Just my two cents.


    I get your point, but Diablo is a hack and slash sort of game. I think most people want it fast paced, with equipment, skill selection, reflexes and tactics being the focus, with a simple control scheme. That's what people are looking for in this style of game (I think). Making it necessary for everyone to use a bunch of macros to stay competitive would make it feel annoying and tedious. It takes the focus off just fighting. Plus, with all skills available all the time, there really wouldn't be "builds" anymore. Basically every character of the same class would play exactly the same. Sounds dull.
  • #38
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