1. No I don't agree. If people feels they need to replay Diablo 3 with a new character, then that's exactly what people are gonna do. Just like in Diablo 2. However, the difference is that you don't HAVE to do it, in order to see and try out new skills and builds. You CAN do it, but you dont HAVE to. Big difference and it's actually alot more fun this way, because nobody is forcing you to do anything. There is tons and tons of freedom. No incentive? Was there ever one in Diablo 2 ? Other than having to forceully do it, or else you couldn't ? That's really a positive thing?
Like i said, people will do whatever they want. If they wanna relive the entire campaign with a new character with a new build, then they will do it. incentive or not.. doesn't matter.
2. Yes you are wrong. You won't get ALL spells at the start. That's ... I mean cmon.. really that's just stupid. You unlock skills just as Diablo 2, as u level up. They grow stronger, + u get new ones.. and u get more attributes. you constantly have to rethink your char in Diablo 3, because u can choose rather freely what u wanna do.
Well, I think I get you point, but I don't agree. I always loved the way you could create a new character and start anew to do something you've never done before and live all the game with that. The first levels were always more fun than the last ones. Now that you can try different builds in higher level, people just won't try newer characters. Yes, I can do it, but most people won't and that will make less people in lower levels, which are the best IMO.
Thus, what I THINK will happen in MY OPINION is that people will just get to high-level and swap some builds, then bore from the game, even they having 1 bazillion builds left, it just bores to try A LOT of builds. The TIME they will spend replaying will be much lower than they spent in D2, that's why I say the replayability seems to be lower.
The idea behind the recent rune ideas that Jay talked about in the interview gave me the idea to solve the problems most of us have with this new skill system. It is ok to swap the skills without any consequences, but the skills could be made like runes.
If we insert a skill into a slot, it is unmastered, so it can be changed any time, like in the current concept. But every slot would have a mastering option. 30-60 is 30 levels, divided by 5 is 6. So the characters would get one mastering points every 5 level after level 30, which means 6 points total.
Every slot would have 3 master level, like advanced, expert and master.
If someone starts to master a skill, that would be locked into the slot. Mastering would give affixes semi-connected to the skill, like increasing critical-chance or resource pool maybe.
So basically it would keep the skill changing option to experiment any time, but if someone wants to really go deep into customization and maxing out the potential of a character, mastering a skill would be a choice to go as well, and it would make the skill build locked.
I really like this idea, I think it is similar to mine above, where I proposed a 4-total-skill-point system, whereas yours is six, and slightly more flexible. I hope the devs read this and consider refining something along these lines and seeing how it plays.
1. No I don't agree. If people feels they need to replay Diablo 3 with a new character, then that's exactly what people are gonna do. Just like in Diablo 2. However, the difference is that you don't HAVE to do it, in order to see and try out new skills and builds. You CAN do it, but you dont HAVE to. Big difference and it's actually alot more fun this way, because nobody is forcing you to do anything. There is tons and tons of freedom. No incentive? Was there ever one in Diablo 2 ? Other than having to forceully do it, or else you couldn't ? That's really a positive thing?
Like i said, people will do whatever they want. If they wanna relive the entire campaign with a new character with a new build, then they will do it. incentive or not.. doesn't matter.
2. Yes you are wrong. You won't get ALL spells at the start. That's ... I mean cmon.. really that's just stupid. You unlock skills just as Diablo 2, as u level up. They grow stronger, + u get new ones.. and u get more attributes. you constantly have to rethink your char in Diablo 3, because u can choose rather freely what u wanna do.
Well, I think I get you point, but I don't agree. I always loved the way you could create a new character and start anew to do something you've never done before and live all the game with that. The first levels were always more fun than the last ones. Now that you can try different builds in higher level, people just won't try newer characters. Yes, I can do it, but most people won't and that will make less people in lower levels, which are the best IMO.
Thus, what I THINK will happen in MY OPINION is that people will just get to high-level and swap some builds, then bore from the game, even they having 1 bazillion builds left, it just bores to try A LOT of builds. The TIME they will spend replaying will be much lower than they spent in D2, that's why I say the replayability seems to be lower.
I do agree with that people will not make new characters, you will play each character and then you can make them whatever you build you want; therefore, eliminating the need to make new characters. Since you would have already played though the game with all five characters, more than likely you will know the story like the back of your hand, so there would be no reason to replay a new character for that unless you just wanted to. On the flipside, this eliminates the painful and boring process of rushing a new character and grinding until your eyes bleed to try out a new build like it was in D2. So, I guess there are upsides and downsides. But I know I wont make a duplicate character when I know there is no point...
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I appreciate that they're trying to get rid of the problems of D2, but this in the end seems like it will only make the game boring and too easy. Not to mention too short. The replayability value is nonexistent. Get a char to lvl 60 (it's probably going to be very easy) and just freely swap around whatever you want. The end. You have all variations of that class at your disposal, what more do you want? Go play the market until you're old and gray.
They should try to find a balance between the harsh, punishing D2 system and just letting you make every character in one freely. Respeccing should have a cost. That way, you balance replayability, difficulty, rewarding actions, and fun.
I agree with your argument about replayability, even you getting a little exaggerated. I don't think the game will be very easy, nor short, I just think that people will get to lvl 60 (or high lvls close to that), switch some skills and that's it. No early game replay, no mid game replay, only end game replay. They will get bored quicker.
Or at least this is what it seems that will happen with the current information we got.
I also never liked respecing in any game. It is only good if you plan to make only one character, and then save gameplay. It is much more fun to do another character. Respecing is normally fine to correct wrong choices, but not to try a whole new build.
I do agree with that people will not make new characters, you will play each character and then you can make them whatever you build you want; therefore, eliminating the need to make new characters. Since you would have already played though the game with all five characters, more than likely you will know the story like the back of your hand, so there would be no reason to replay a new character for that unless you just wanted to. On the flipside, this eliminates the painful and boring process of rushing a new character and grinding until your eyes bleed to try out a new build like it was in D2. So, I guess there are upsides and downsides. But I know I wont make a duplicate character when I know there is no point...
Yes, you got my point and I agree with you. There is no point to make another character, so why would people do it?
D1 and D2 were never story-driven in the way they did replayability, nightmare and hell modes just illustrate that. I just started newer characters to play without rushing and it felt great, just for killing monsters with another build in all phases of the game, getting a lot of levels, always getting stronger and so on.
I really hope D3 bring replaybility back, even if different than it was in D2, beacause, at least for now, with the grasp I have of the game, I think the replayability is going to be lower.
I personally am really excited for this new skill system. I want to be able to use more than 2 skills.
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My place really was here. I was too foolish and stubborn to notice. But, what I truly hoped for then was here. Why do I always realize it When I've already lost it.
What's the point of making a duplicate character if it's ONLY to skip the story and try a build out at high level ? Tell me. This seems insanely stupid to me.
How do you know that players won't make new characters to try a new build from scratch, through the story once more?
How many times do u think a player should go throug hthe same story again and again? No game can have endless replayability.
Replayability for Diablo 3 is in Hell, inferno and nightmare, new items, new runes, pvp, new world events that are fun.. expansion packs.. etc doing fun stuff
1- Replaying every phases of the game. The early, mid and end games are fairly different in gaming experience, and each build feels different in each phase.
2- Because they won't have to. That is a little tricky, but people doesn't play a game thinking "What should I do to have the best experience?", they just play it. And if they don't have to play the game again with another build, they will never know how much they are missing.
3- As many times as he wants. Diablo pratically invented the replaybility with the builds and recurring-story difficulties.
4- The different difficulties are different experiences. That is sure replaybility, but it is lower than D3 predecessors.
I think that what summarizes my opinion is that Respecing were everytime meant to correct the player's mistakes when doing the build, thus preventing the "punishing" way skill worked in D2, but never meant to swap builds around.
I spent all day yesterday debating this with other people and there was one common denominator with people that didn't like this system. They all wanted the ability to "mess up" their characters. They wanted the sense of fulfillment when they finally found a build that they felt "worked" for them.
The funny thing is this system doesn't really change much from the previous. There are only 2 things you lose in the new skill system, neither of which impact "customization" of your character in any way.
The first is, at it's most basic level, the ability to make your character weaker in choosen areas. WIth the old system you basically had to decide which skills you wanted "strong" and then distribute a few points around the rest of the other skills. So, in essence, you choose which skills you wanted to have that would "SUCK" so you could have one or two really good skills.
The second is you loose some of the level-to-level variability between similar classes using the same skills as you. Basically, with the old system it was possible for 2 characters to have a certain skill and have one player use that skill more strongly then the other (because they dumped more points into it at different levels). Obviously the other character would be stronger in another skill, but assuming both characters are of equal level and class, they both have the same relative strength (character level).
But this only seems to matter in those few cases where you're partied up with somone of the same level and class and who has chosen the same skills as you. It's just a way to temporarily flex your e-peen because you have a skill that's "slightly" better then others. The "advantage" is false anyway, since you're not really competing with other characters.
The new system fulfills the same purpose in that, you get to choose the skills you "want" to use and then fill in the blanks with others. It's just that the other skills won't "suck" because you failed to choose to put points into them.
The customization of a character isn't determined by the strength of the skills they choose (skill points were only good for that), but by the skills they choose to actually use.
People who don't like this system really, actually, have a problem with the idea of respeccing, because now it's an inherent part of the skill system, instead of an optional one.
What's stopping you from starting new characters without rushing the game, feeling, great, killing monsters with ANOTHER build in all phases of the game, getting lvls and gettign stronger, in diablo 3 ?
I don't follow your logic.
If the point of D1 and D2 was to rush through story without playing, then where is the replayability in that? There is none.
I wouldn't call lvling a 1-99 char rushing power levelning, JUST to try out 2 new skills at max lvl, fun or replayable. That's actually boring, stupid and well.. just wrong.But maybe u feel otherwise.
They just made that rushing easier in diablo 3, since u can always swap skills at high lvl.. no need to lvl a new char just to try skills, if u dont care about story, fun, items etc
Nothing is stopping me, maybe the feeling that I am doing something irrelevant just because I feel like it, but I would do that anyway.
I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the general experience people should have with the game. (And with that, the numbers of players that will do the same)
The replaybility is directed on the focus of Diablo, killing monsters and getting drops. Early game drops, mid game drops and eng game drops killing the same phase games monsters. Not rushing, rushing is a failure of D1 and D2.
1. No I don't agree. If people feels they need to replay Diablo 3 with a new character, then that's exactly what people are gonna do. Just like in Diablo 2. However, the difference is that you don't HAVE to do it, in order to see and try out new skills and builds. You CAN do it, but you dont HAVE to. Big difference and it's actually alot more fun this way, because nobody is forcing you to do anything. There is tons and tons of freedom. No incentive? Was there ever one in Diablo 2 ? Other than having to forceully do it, or else you couldn't ? That's really a positive thing?
Like i said, people will do whatever they want. If they wanna relive the entire campaign with a new character with a new build, then they will do it. incentive or not.. doesn't matter.
2. Yes you are wrong. You won't get ALL spells at the start. That's ... I mean cmon.. really that's just stupid. You unlock skills just as Diablo 2, as u level up. They grow stronger, + u get new ones.. and u get more attributes. you constantly have to rethink your char in Diablo 3, because u can choose rather freely what u wanna do.
Well, I think I get you point, but I don't agree. I always loved the way you could create a new character and start anew to do something you've never done before and live all the game with that. The first levels were always more fun than the last ones. Now that you can try different builds in higher level, people just won't try newer characters. Yes, I can do it, but most people won't and that will make less people in lower levels, which are the best IMO.
Thus, what I THINK will happen in MY OPINION is that people will just get to high-level and swap some builds, then bore from the game, even they having 1 bazillion builds left, it just bores to try A LOT of builds. The TIME they will spend replaying will be much lower than they spent in D2, that's why I say the replayability seems to be lower.
I see what you are saying and to a certain extent I agree with you. But I think this is where Hardcore mode comes into play. There will be a point to make new characters if you last one just died. The only frustrating thing about Hardcore though is dieing because of latency/connection issues, but hey if you play Hardcore, that's a risk you need to accept.
1. Read what I said, if you are ONLY rushing through, skipping content, then what's the point? You are talking about if ppl want to experience the same stuff again with a new build, you can do that...
2. So you are saying that just because people dont HAVE to do something, they won't ? Lol?
Slavery thinking much? That's not true at all imo. If people want to experience content of diablo 3 once more, they will do it. And if they do it, they might make a different build than before, for fun, while doing it... dont u understand that?
3. Then what's the problem? Players in Diablo 3, can experience the content as many times as they want, with as many new builds and characters as they want... what is DIFFERENT??? Nothing. You can replay the act 1-4 over and over again with new build and new characters.. if thats what u want...
4. How do you know replayability is lower than D2 and D1? You don't. You don't know ANYTHING in fact, anything at all, about how hard, hell inferno and nightmare will be, how many events there will be, what new things they will do, what drops are gonna be like, how the random element of story is gonna be.. u dont know all these things..
in all probabaility, things are gonna be much much much M*UCH better than D2. Cos blizzard has got so many new story ideas, random events every time u play a new area.. everything is random and new, so u can replay again and again, and it feels new everytime.
1. Not rushing. Playing again, doing quests again, all the way it should be. Just not paying much attention to the story.
2. Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.
3. The difference is that they won't. Just that. They will play, get to higher levels, swap some skills and stop playing. Unless some few that know it is fun to replay the whole game.
4. I don't know. I expect Nightmare and Hell to be the same kind of replayability as D2 and D1. But there is not replayability with the same characters, thus, lower.
I never said D3 will be worse the D2. I think it will be great, improve a lot in everything else, but as of today, I think the replayability will be lower.
@masterficher : why do you keep saying rushing? Rushing came for me after 2 years of diablo 2 and about the same for diablo 1. Rushing is when you took youre time, did all the quests, tested all the classes you wanted to test and is now farming for gear in a hardcore manner. I certainly wont rush in diablo 3 until i have a max witch doctor, wizard, monk at the least. Barbarian i feel its recycled but perhaps i will love it and im not a fan of the bow/crossbow although the demon hunter look really good.
For the skill change though im all for. D2 point system was soooo dumb. Even other Action RPG that copied the formula did it better... well of course they did since diablo 2 was the first to do it, they improved the base idea. So yeah, you go and do lets say a necromancer focused on bonespear. So you take almost all bone talent, each point in a talent give you lets say , bone spear 1 give you (exemple) 10-20 dmg , you level and get a point yay! you dumb it into bonespear again for 20-30dmg yay! so until bonespear is not 20, you wont stop dumping point into it... I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEXT LEVEL!! IM SO PUMPED UP TO LEVEL!!! (sarcasm) it was cool back in time but now with what it is on the market, it would be pretty weak. Now lets say you play a wizard in D3. You have maxed out Meteor and Arcane Orb. So you go around, droppping a single meteor on someone who move and it miss... now you have to wait on the cooldown to use youre single good attack. You do an arcane orb, wait for the small cooldown, use it again, use it again, oh! meteor is up, you do a meteor, use arcane orb again until meteor is back. That is a 2 skill build. Now instead of having to put point into making 2 attack powerful, all of you attacks will be. So you will drop youre meteor again but now you can teleport in the middle of the pool of monsters and desintegrate them, teleport again, go slash a caster , meteor is up you drop it again. A big boss appear you send youre multi magic missile attack etc. You wont fear using other attack because they will be powerful too, so youll use 4 to 6 skills instead of 1 or 2.
so yeah, im all for it, it will be really nice
edit : Skill Points Removal Fuels Game Controversy .... hmm its perhaps a bit too much like title, ill correct it
RMT addition fuels game controversy ... there we go
I'm very happy with the skill point changes, in d2 it was always the same, get prerequisite, put points in this ability for twenty levels, and now put my next twenty levels in my other ability. Most of the time if felt like filler, I feel this a a nice fresh approach.
With the "auto stat distribution" at level up I think this is a chance you might actually feel some power increase at each level; unlike D2 I normally didn't notice much difference unless I finally got the gear upgrade.
I'm very happy with the new theoretical rune approach. Current version = yay I'm uber in my first week... now what? The new approach will allow for more longevity and an opportunity to try some of the other rune abilities I would normally not try. People also seem to be unsettled at the idea that this will be a waste of a rune, but it could enhance one of your other abilities... maybe not your focused skills but I don't think any rune will be a waste.
This would likely be great for early to mid game, end game may be a pain with the greyed out feature but if you actually find the proper abilities and stats you want it will be that much more fulfilling, i.e. if you found a zod every 2 hours of game playing in d2 = flooded market and everyone would be bored in a month. I remember the first time I found a Ber for the first time, I was buzzing for days.
I can understand people's frustration on the unknown rune type, the only two cents I could offer would be keep the rune colors visible but make the "more sought after" runes less likely to drop to compensate. I'm also loving the random stats, adds more flavor for the trade community.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Rushing is a failure of D1 and D2? Then you are saying that the old skill system is bad, and a failure too. Cos that's what it was. Rushing through 1-99, just to try a new build.. not kill monsteres, and have fun and drops.
You are doing something irrelevant, just because you feel like it ? That doesn't make any sense...
Whatever you choose to do as a human being, is never irrelevant, because it's what YOU wanna do. Not what others want you to.
Yes, rushing was a failure. Yes, the old skill system had terrible problems. The fun part of replaying is not rushing, it is doing it all over again with another build.
@johny : so they are been pushed by the shareholders now to release it on time, but the have spend a lot of time in other pointless characteristics, so there is not enought time now for balancing the skills and they drop it!?
pointless characteristics? atm all they got out was fabulous and give me so much joy that i will play D3 this year and will be the best action rpg ever. I dont know where you see pointless stuff.
balancing skills, i tought the video would have made it crystal clear, the point system is a fail. You will still be able to do builds, instead of having 2 powerfuls spells that you spam, all of them will be. In D2 when you put a point in a skill, what did it do? 10-20 dmg to 20-30 dmg. Yeah... so you would max that skill so at the end it would be lets say 120-130dmg. Now it will be 120-130 dmg but the first skill you got too.
There will be plenty of build to do with the passive, gearing and rune system
First, this suits my playstyle very well, because I don't like constantly grinding characters (read: powerlevel) up to max level just to try a new build. I like having a couple of bad-ass characters and tweaking them.
Second, this allows us to very easily react to patches, post-release skill balancing, and new content.
Third, I am very compelled by Jay's argument about how people tend to play. This is psychology. Humans have a natural tendency to min-max. But what about this skill system prevents you from min-maxing? Whether you min-max by pressing a "+" button, or do it by matching skills with runes and gear and passives, you're going to be able to have single skill-centric builds if you want to. The only thing this does is make the process more fun and flexible for all gamers, not just the hardcore elite.
Fourth, to people who worry this will affect replay value: I understand that some people like to just constantly level up new chars to try new builds. I think that player base is in a distinct minority when compared with the breadth of potential D3 players. Everyone who pays $50 to play this game deserves to have fun, after all, that's what a game is for.
But more importantly, if the only thing left to do once you max a character is start from scratch and build a new character, that itself indicative of very low replay value! What I mean is, end-game replay value. In a game like this, end game is a critical component of replay value.
Be honest. You're gonna rush new characters to max level just for a respec. You're not re-playing the game because leveling is fun, you're replaying because you want another buff end-game character with a different build. Now you don't have to powerlevel any more, you can swap skills while enjoying a (hopefully) more replayable end-game.
I am excited that Blizzard seems to think there will be tons to do once you're level capped, because why else would they restrict character limits and focus their design on tweaking?
Fifth, if people are saying that "not enough core stat knobs to twist" means you won't be able to build EXACTLY the character you want, I strongly disagree. You can still build precisely the character you want, there are TONS of knobs (folks from the UK are prolly laughing right now). The only difference is, you don't have to crunch CORE STAT numbers. You still have to crunch a LOT of numbers, just not core stat stuff.
Sixth, and finally, it's pretty undeniable that by preventing core stat/skill manipulation, Blizzard is limiting extreme min-maxing. This is good for the game. Why? Because base skill manipulation is very complicated as a practice. While this suits the hardcore gamer, it makes the game as a whole suffer, because everyone who doesn't like core skill number crunching will feel compelled to copycat the extreme min-max builds in order to be viable. Remove that facility, and all gamers will find their own genius and create a much wider variety of viable builds.
All those observations aside, I do sympathize with people who find the lack of core stat/skill options upsetting.
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
I'm slowly getting over the news and accepting the good side of this however I have a hard time overcoming one issue: Levelling up loses its reward. Attribute points allocate automatically, skill points are gone...past normal after all the skill slots are opened levelling up pretty much only increases the power of your character but doesn't offer you any choice, any tangible new reward for your hard earned experience. Yes you can get better gear but that might not prove to be true until something better actually drops for you which might happen like an hour later. The level cap has been decreased to 60 so that levelling up has more impact to it since there were less skill points with more powerful rewards. Now there are no skill points...and no reward for that hard earned level.
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A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head!
Sixth, and finally, it's pretty undeniable that by preventing core stat/skill manipulation, Blizzard is limiting extreme min-maxing. This is good for the game. Why? Because base skill manipulation is very complicated as a practice. While this suits the hardcore gamer, it makes the game as a whole suffer, because everyone who doesn't like core skill number crunching will feel compelled to copycat the extreme min-max builds in order to be viable. Remove that facility, and all gamers will find their own genius and create a much wider variety of viable builds.
All those observations aside, I do sympathize with people who find the lack of core stat/skill options upsetting.
Overall very well put, I agree with your view points, I think the only part to add to the final comment is people may focus on particular stat boosting from their equipment perform their number crunching on certain caps and returning values, once determined of course.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
even though I NEVER sign into these forums/comments to respond, I actually felt compelled to do so today.
no skillpoints= more fun, more builds
having every ability scale with level/gear is great. I hated being forced to rev up certain skills just because they were the IWIN button OR revving up certain skills that I never used w/ points in D2 after the synergy patch just to maximize the few spells I did use
that's not customization. that is forcing the character to spend points in various areas and promoting cookie cutter builds.
I think people are missing the big picture... THIS IS NOT D2!!
& the RUNE system will offer tons of custom builds and choices in char creation.
Anyway, BLIZZ keep up the good work.
This game is def going to be well-polished as BLIZZ is not making the mistake of creating a cookie-cutter ARPG w/ cookie-cutter features and is still implementing elements that retain the Diablo feel and ultimately enhance gameplay/fun.
Time for change people. get over it. and posters who are concerned, quit the fear mongering. it's all for the better.
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Well, I think I get you point, but I don't agree. I always loved the way you could create a new character and start anew to do something you've never done before and live all the game with that. The first levels were always more fun than the last ones. Now that you can try different builds in higher level, people just won't try newer characters. Yes, I can do it, but most people won't and that will make less people in lower levels, which are the best IMO.
Thus, what I THINK will happen in MY OPINION is that people will just get to high-level and swap some builds, then bore from the game, even they having 1 bazillion builds left, it just bores to try A LOT of builds. The TIME they will spend replaying will be much lower than they spent in D2, that's why I say the replayability seems to be lower.
I really like this idea, I think it is similar to mine above, where I proposed a 4-total-skill-point system, whereas yours is six, and slightly more flexible. I hope the devs read this and consider refining something along these lines and seeing how it plays.
Why not just change the name of the game now because it's certainly not part of the true Diablo franchise.
I do agree with that people will not make new characters, you will play each character and then you can make them whatever you build you want; therefore, eliminating the need to make new characters. Since you would have already played though the game with all five characters, more than likely you will know the story like the back of your hand, so there would be no reason to replay a new character for that unless you just wanted to. On the flipside, this eliminates the painful and boring process of rushing a new character and grinding until your eyes bleed to try out a new build like it was in D2. So, I guess there are upsides and downsides. But I know I wont make a duplicate character when I know there is no point...
I agree with your argument about replayability, even you getting a little exaggerated. I don't think the game will be very easy, nor short, I just think that people will get to lvl 60 (or high lvls close to that), switch some skills and that's it. No early game replay, no mid game replay, only end game replay. They will get bored quicker.
Or at least this is what it seems that will happen with the current information we got.
I also never liked respecing in any game. It is only good if you plan to make only one character, and then save gameplay. It is much more fun to do another character. Respecing is normally fine to correct wrong choices, but not to try a whole new build.
Yes, you got my point and I agree with you. There is no point to make another character, so why would people do it?
D1 and D2 were never story-driven in the way they did replayability, nightmare and hell modes just illustrate that. I just started newer characters to play without rushing and it felt great, just for killing monsters with another build in all phases of the game, getting a lot of levels, always getting stronger and so on.
I really hope D3 bring replaybility back, even if different than it was in D2, beacause, at least for now, with the grasp I have of the game, I think the replayability is going to be lower.
1- Replaying every phases of the game. The early, mid and end games are fairly different in gaming experience, and each build feels different in each phase.
2- Because they won't have to. That is a little tricky, but people doesn't play a game thinking "What should I do to have the best experience?", they just play it. And if they don't have to play the game again with another build, they will never know how much they are missing.
3- As many times as he wants. Diablo pratically invented the replaybility with the builds and recurring-story difficulties.
4- The different difficulties are different experiences. That is sure replaybility, but it is lower than D3 predecessors.
I think that what summarizes my opinion is that Respecing were everytime meant to correct the player's mistakes when doing the build, thus preventing the "punishing" way skill worked in D2, but never meant to swap builds around.
The funny thing is this system doesn't really change much from the previous. There are only 2 things you lose in the new skill system, neither of which impact "customization" of your character in any way.
The first is, at it's most basic level, the ability to make your character weaker in choosen areas. WIth the old system you basically had to decide which skills you wanted "strong" and then distribute a few points around the rest of the other skills. So, in essence, you choose which skills you wanted to have that would "SUCK" so you could have one or two really good skills.
The second is you loose some of the level-to-level variability between similar classes using the same skills as you. Basically, with the old system it was possible for 2 characters to have a certain skill and have one player use that skill more strongly then the other (because they dumped more points into it at different levels). Obviously the other character would be stronger in another skill, but assuming both characters are of equal level and class, they both have the same relative strength (character level).
But this only seems to matter in those few cases where you're partied up with somone of the same level and class and who has chosen the same skills as you. It's just a way to temporarily flex your e-peen because you have a skill that's "slightly" better then others. The "advantage" is false anyway, since you're not really competing with other characters.
The new system fulfills the same purpose in that, you get to choose the skills you "want" to use and then fill in the blanks with others. It's just that the other skills won't "suck" because you failed to choose to put points into them.
The customization of a character isn't determined by the strength of the skills they choose (skill points were only good for that), but by the skills they choose to actually use.
People who don't like this system really, actually, have a problem with the idea of respeccing, because now it's an inherent part of the skill system, instead of an optional one.
Nothing is stopping me, maybe the feeling that I am doing something irrelevant just because I feel like it, but I would do that anyway.
I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the general experience people should have with the game. (And with that, the numbers of players that will do the same)
The replaybility is directed on the focus of Diablo, killing monsters and getting drops. Early game drops, mid game drops and eng game drops killing the same phase games monsters. Not rushing, rushing is a failure of D1 and D2.
I see what you are saying and to a certain extent I agree with you. But I think this is where Hardcore mode comes into play. There will be a point to make new characters if you last one just died. The only frustrating thing about Hardcore though is dieing because of latency/connection issues, but hey if you play Hardcore, that's a risk you need to accept.
1. Not rushing. Playing again, doing quests again, all the way it should be. Just not paying much attention to the story.
2. Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.
3. The difference is that they won't. Just that. They will play, get to higher levels, swap some skills and stop playing. Unless some few that know it is fun to replay the whole game.
4. I don't know. I expect Nightmare and Hell to be the same kind of replayability as D2 and D1. But there is not replayability with the same characters, thus, lower.
I never said D3 will be worse the D2. I think it will be great, improve a lot in everything else, but as of today, I think the replayability will be lower.
For the skill change though im all for. D2 point system was soooo dumb. Even other Action RPG that copied the formula did it better... well of course they did since diablo 2 was the first to do it, they improved the base idea. So yeah, you go and do lets say a necromancer focused on bonespear. So you take almost all bone talent, each point in a talent give you lets say , bone spear 1 give you (exemple) 10-20 dmg , you level and get a point yay! you dumb it into bonespear again for 20-30dmg yay! so until bonespear is not 20, you wont stop dumping point into it... I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEXT LEVEL!! IM SO PUMPED UP TO LEVEL!!!
so yeah, im all for it, it will be really nice
edit : Skill Points Removal Fuels Game Controversy .... hmm its perhaps a bit too much like title, ill correct it
RMT addition fuels game controversy ... there we go
I'm very happy with the skill point changes, in d2 it was always the same, get prerequisite, put points in this ability for twenty levels, and now put my next twenty levels in my other ability. Most of the time if felt like filler, I feel this a a nice fresh approach.
With the "auto stat distribution" at level up I think this is a chance you might actually feel some power increase at each level; unlike D2 I normally didn't notice much difference unless I finally got the gear upgrade.
I'm very happy with the new theoretical rune approach. Current version = yay I'm uber in my first week... now what? The new approach will allow for more longevity and an opportunity to try some of the other rune abilities I would normally not try. People also seem to be unsettled at the idea that this will be a waste of a rune, but it could enhance one of your other abilities... maybe not your focused skills but I don't think any rune will be a waste.
This would likely be great for early to mid game, end game may be a pain with the greyed out feature but if you actually find the proper abilities and stats you want it will be that much more fulfilling, i.e. if you found a zod every 2 hours of game playing in d2 = flooded market and everyone would be bored in a month. I remember the first time I found a Ber for the first time, I was buzzing for days.
I can understand people's frustration on the unknown rune type, the only two cents I could offer would be keep the rune colors visible but make the "more sought after" runes less likely to drop to compensate. I'm also loving the random stats, adds more flavor for the trade community.
Yes, rushing was a failure. Yes, the old skill system had terrible problems. The fun part of replaying is not rushing, it is doing it all over again with another build.
pointless characteristics? atm all they got out was fabulous and give me so much joy that i will play D3 this year and will be the best action rpg ever. I dont know where you see pointless stuff.
balancing skills, i tought the video would have made it crystal clear, the point system is a fail. You will still be able to do builds, instead of having 2 powerfuls spells that you spam, all of them will be. In D2 when you put a point in a skill, what did it do? 10-20 dmg to 20-30 dmg. Yeah... so you would max that skill so at the end it would be lets say 120-130dmg. Now it will be 120-130 dmg but the first skill you got too.
There will be plenty of build to do with the passive, gearing and rune system
First, this suits my playstyle very well, because I don't like constantly grinding characters (read: powerlevel) up to max level just to try a new build. I like having a couple of bad-ass characters and tweaking them.
Second, this allows us to very easily react to patches, post-release skill balancing, and new content.
Third, I am very compelled by Jay's argument about how people tend to play. This is psychology. Humans have a natural tendency to min-max. But what about this skill system prevents you from min-maxing? Whether you min-max by pressing a "+" button, or do it by matching skills with runes and gear and passives, you're going to be able to have single skill-centric builds if you want to. The only thing this does is make the process more fun and flexible for all gamers, not just the hardcore elite.
Fourth, to people who worry this will affect replay value: I understand that some people like to just constantly level up new chars to try new builds. I think that player base is in a distinct minority when compared with the breadth of potential D3 players. Everyone who pays $50 to play this game deserves to have fun, after all, that's what a game is for.
But more importantly, if the only thing left to do once you max a character is start from scratch and build a new character, that itself indicative of very low replay value! What I mean is, end-game replay value. In a game like this, end game is a critical component of replay value.
Be honest. You're gonna rush new characters to max level just for a respec. You're not re-playing the game because leveling is fun, you're replaying because you want another buff end-game character with a different build. Now you don't have to powerlevel any more, you can swap skills while enjoying a (hopefully) more replayable end-game.
I am excited that Blizzard seems to think there will be tons to do once you're level capped, because why else would they restrict character limits and focus their design on tweaking?
Fifth, if people are saying that "not enough core stat knobs to twist" means you won't be able to build EXACTLY the character you want, I strongly disagree. You can still build precisely the character you want, there are TONS of knobs (folks from the UK are prolly laughing right now). The only difference is, you don't have to crunch CORE STAT numbers. You still have to crunch a LOT of numbers, just not core stat stuff.
Sixth, and finally, it's pretty undeniable that by preventing core stat/skill manipulation, Blizzard is limiting extreme min-maxing. This is good for the game. Why? Because base skill manipulation is very complicated as a practice. While this suits the hardcore gamer, it makes the game as a whole suffer, because everyone who doesn't like core skill number crunching will feel compelled to copycat the extreme min-max builds in order to be viable. Remove that facility, and all gamers will find their own genius and create a much wider variety of viable builds.
All those observations aside, I do sympathize with people who find the lack of core stat/skill options upsetting.
-Thomas Jefferson
Overall very well put, I agree with your view points, I think the only part to add to the final comment is people may focus on particular stat boosting from their equipment perform their number crunching on certain caps and returning values, once determined of course.
even though I NEVER sign into these forums/comments to respond, I actually felt compelled to do so today.
no skillpoints= more fun, more builds
having every ability scale with level/gear is great. I hated being forced to rev up certain skills just because they were the IWIN button OR revving up certain skills that I never used w/ points in D2 after the synergy patch just to maximize the few spells I did use
that's not customization. that is forcing the character to spend points in various areas and promoting cookie cutter builds.
I think people are missing the big picture... THIS IS NOT D2!!
& the RUNE system will offer tons of custom builds and choices in char creation.
Anyway, BLIZZ keep up the good work.
This game is def going to be well-polished as BLIZZ is not making the mistake of creating a cookie-cutter ARPG w/ cookie-cutter features and is still implementing elements that retain the Diablo feel and ultimately enhance gameplay/fun.
Time for change people. get over it. and posters who are concerned, quit the fear mongering. it's all for the better.