The Death of Your Followers (and Attack Rating)

  • #1
    Recently, we've received some more information about a few different systems in Diablo III during some discussion on the Battle.net forums, along with a few informative tweets.

    To start off, we recieved some much needed, if miniscule, information about NPC followers in Diablo III.

    Official Blizzard Quote:



    CalamanderRu: @Diablo Does it mean that NPC can take damage or even die?
    Diablo: @CalamanderRu Many of them, yes.
    At first look this simply confirms the obvious: NPCs that follow you around will die. However, Bashiok's reply seems to imply that you'll fight at the side of NPCs that won't be able to die, such as DiabloWiki.com - Deckard Cain Deckard Cain following the Barbarian in the Gameplay Video. Fighting along with Tyreal as you make your way into Diablo's lair? It could happen. Who knows what NPCs, new or old, will ask for your assistance and then come along with you for the quest or two they send you on? Though if you're interested, our very own Don_Guillotine took a stab at what NPC's we may be encountering.


    Bashiok then gave us a very good description of the hit chance in the upcoming game in the start of a lengthy thread on the Battle.net forums.

    Official Blizzard Quote:



    Essentially all attacks have a flat 5% chance to miss, with the exception of most ranged spells, AOE, and abilities with larger resource investments. There's no blanket rule that's easy for me to lay down to show which can't miss and which can, it's sort of handled on a case by case basis. Most melee attacks have a 5% chance to miss, but then some melee attacks can't miss because the resource cost is substantial. It's sort of common sense in a way, that a range attack has to be aimed and connect with a moving target so a chance to miss in in the player's skill, so no need to have it on the ability (some exceptions exist). AOE just doesn't make good sense to miss because if the enemy is in the area of effect that's their bad. Skills with big resource costs have that investment in them, so giving them a chance to miss feels lame. Skills that can miss are usually the low/no cost melee attacks, spammable attacks, etc. And no, there is no stat or way to augment/reduce chance to miss.
    As Bashiok points out, this system is based on a combination of aim and percentages, depening on the attack. Area of effect attacks hit as long as the the player or monster is in, well, the area. Ranged attacks, in most cases, travel in straight lines and whether or not the attack hits the monster depends on where the player aimed. Obviously this will vary with the skill, as some ranged attacks may follow their target. The melee hit chance is simply a percentage, and if you are within melee range you will hit the player or monster 95% of the time in order to simulate the potential misses with a ranged attack. This also means that DiabloWiki.com - Attack Rating Attack Rating won't be returning in Diablo III, and it appears as though the miss rate will be constant for melee characters and will not be able to be improved by stats.

    The conversation in the Battle.net forum thread then turned to talk of player skill, and Bashiok chimed in on this topic as well.

    Official Blizzard Quote:



    I think the point is that there is some perceived level of 'skill' difference between those that know the systems and work within them, and those that just play the game and are oblivious to them. When instead we're actually attempting to avoid that 'I did the math so I win' type of puzzle solving, and instead place more of the skill difference up front with actual gameplay. There will still be plenty of places for the min/maxers to blow away the casual weekend warriors, though.
    Obviously, Diablo is going for a balance of allowing casual players to play and enjoy the game, while still implementing mechanics and challenges that allow people to show off their prowess. As Bashiok describes, the separation between hardcore and casual players will be less based on a knowledge of the math behind the game's mechanics, and more on knowing what skills, runes and gear to get and whether or not you know how to play your character's build.

    This topic continued in a somewhat heated discussion, where Bashiok explained how min/maxing works in Diablo III.

    Official Blizzard Quote:



    First off, there seems to be an idea that these things are being 'dumbed down', which is of course not the case. No matter what systems we have in the game, as long as there is some reasonable amount of complexity, each and every one of them will be torn apart, put on a spread sheet, and digested by those that want to get mathy about min/maxing the game, and it will lead to being more successful. That's a given, and we don't have to design in complex systems that we don't think feel fun to accomplish it. The majority of the systems that exist are fairly complex once you move beyond the easy-to-use interface, and I fully expect you all to pry up the cover and rip the wires out to make something better.
    It appears as though there are plenty of complex systems with a lot of depth. Bashiok seems to be going out of his way to assure us that min/maxing will be very important to get the most out of your character. However, that does not translate into complex interfaces. As seen during the Blizzcon 2010 Crafting Sanctuary panel, Diablo III's interface has gone through many iterations to become as easy to use as possible.


    Official Blizzard Quote:



    Secondly this isn't Diablo II, and I know it's easy to get caught up in that mindset because for the most part it's the only reference (WHERE'S THE BETA!?). We don't have spammable health potions, we think that's a great change, and we know most of you do too. That means a whole lot things to how damage is dealt and received. Really huge spikey damage does not work in a system where you can't quickly overcome those spikes by spamming potions. Because of that systems like chance to hit shift to instead offset defense, resists, and damage taken. End of the day it's the same thing, but the game benefits from the swap from one end to the other. We technically have more stats in Diablo III than Diablo II because of this. More stats is more knobs is more math is more ways to rule through tweaking it.
    Bashiok brings up a very interesting point here when it comes to the damage system in Diablo III. As we all know, Diablo III uses DiabloWiki.com - Health Globes Health Globes as the main way to gain health instead of the DiabloWiki.com - Potions Potions we all know from the first two games, and this makes it so that the entire damage system is different in Diablo III when compared to Diablo II.

    And yea, where is that beta?


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  • #2
    Good article, and good things being discussed here. Overall, I feel that the 95% hit chance is the right way to go. I always felt like even though my characters were geared well and had a great skill build, sometimes the attack rating was not what I had hoped, and was the crippling factor in my overall build - no matter how well I played with them. I like to see that our gear, skills, traits, and prowess will make us succeed, and not the ridiculous mathematic equations. +1 for the Diablo dev team.

    And yea....


    Lot's of beta talk going on around here...
  • #3
    I like how there is no chance-to-hit statistic that you have to pump in order to be effective. However, I really think there should be a chance-to-avoid attacks (dodge, avoid, blocking, etc.) with the focus on player characters. Instead of being a function of your character, it's a function of your opponent. In that way it feels not like a deficiency of your character (that you're expected to improve to be effective), but a strength of a particular target.

    It's an important distinction between the archetypes of the barbarian on the monk. The barbarian is a tough thug; the monk is a skilled martial artist. The barbarian can take a lot of hits because of his armor and bulk. The monk, on the other hand, blocks, dodges, and counter-attacks but he can't take as many blows. Considering the fact that the barbarian can use shields, I have strong concerns about how these characters are going to be distinct in terms of their defense. I will be disappointed if the monk and barbarian both rely on balancing vitality/armor(/defense). Since the barbarian is likely to have more of both, where does that leave the monk? What's the point of having a character that is a martial artist if he gets hit by every blow and has to rely on armor to mitigate that damage just like the barbarian?

    What I am hoping for is:

    1) the monk can block with or without a shield

    2) a mechanic representing something to the affect of "agility" that rolls blocking, dodging, etc. all into one inclusive percentage (let's replace the defense attribute, shall we?)

    3) critical hits can not be avoided or blocked
  • #4
    *selective hearing kicks in* Beta? Where?!

    Anyway, while it's too bad there will be one build type less to create, it sounds like its for the best. Besides, there will be such a vast variety of other builds based on skills and traits alone that my thirst for customization will be justly satiated.
  • #5
    Quote from Anatidaus

    Anyway, while it's too bad there will be one build type less to create, it sounds like its for the best. Besides, there will be such a vast variety of other builds based on skills and traits alone that my thirst for customization will be justly satiated.

    Well as Bashiok points out, theres still more stats in Diablo 3 compared to Diablo 2.

    And as far as the Monk's ability to dodge, thats also somewhat effected by his blinding skills, which cause enemies to miss. A variety of other skills could be used to the same effect.


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  • #6
    Good post. I am all for where D3 is heading. Also, what's up with the wallpaper on the frontpage?
  • #7
    (sorry for the other post; it was late and I did not notice all news headers get their own topic so am sorry for creating work for the modders)

    I really like it tbh; as I said in the other post - trying to work out how much dex you need to get your AR and Defense high enough so you can hit and block was just annoying especially when first learning the game.

    That's my simplistic view on this anyway xD

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  • #8
    I think I will miss the fact that stats do determine some part of the chance to miss and all. It was a great customization in my point of view. However, in compensation, D3 has more other stats to play with, so I guess its all good ;)
  • #9
    Well thats kind of what the whole part about the damage system in D3 is about. Since you don't have potions, the game is much more about constant damage than spikes of damage, and as a result defensive stats and the like are all about reducing damage instead of avoiding it (although there may be exceptions).

    It's an important distinction between the archetypes of the barbarian on the monk. The barbarian is a tough thug; the monk is a skilled martial artist. The barbarian can take a lot of hits because of his armor and bulk. The monk, on the other hand, blocks, dodges, and counter-attacks but he can't take as many blows.

    I would definitely agree. However, even if they make it so they both avoid damage in similar ways, their differences in traits and skills will easily distinguish them and keep their own flavors.

    And Leeodin, you posted your topic right before I did :P Its no problem.


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  • #10
    As I stated in the source post, this change is epic. Seriously fucking epic. This will truly make the game feel like an RPG rather than a grindfest. The points you decide to spend on your character will immediately be palpable, not some niche goal that takes 30 hours to complete successfully. When I was reading about this last night, I was pretty convinced that the whiners aren't thinking about this carefully.

    What I was wondering is, why not just make the hit chance 100%? Why would you even have an arbitrary 5%?
    "All generalizations are false, including this one." -Mark Twain
  • #11
    Quote from CherubDown

    What I was wondering is, why not just make the hit chance 100%? Why would you even have an arbitrary 5%?


    I think as Bashiok said, it's there with the intention of trying to balance skills that have no built-in hit element (say Barbarian's Bash) with skills that have one (say Wizard's Magic Missile, which hits if the player is good at aiming).
  • #12
    Yea pretty much. I don't know that ranged attackers will only miss 5% of their shots on average, but it'll probably even out considering melee characters have to actually reach their target first. The percentage could be tweaked pretty easily if its wrong.


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  • #13
    I'm glad that AR is gone. It was such an un-fun stat to try to boost. I would rather be looking for a weapon with +dmg or crit than AR.

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  • #14
    Am I the only one here that thinks that removing AR is a bad thing. The thing is that D2 handled AR/Defence badly by putting too much in the difference of character level vs the monster level.

    I will hold final judgement until the game comes out.
  • #15
    yeah now the attack rating will be more realistic! I always be confused in D2 when I missed 5 hit in a row when i have 95% of attack rating...
  • #16
    Am I the only one here that thinks that removing AR is a bad thing.


    No. Not AR per se, but a system to make you hit more often. It's not like there's skill involved in mousing over a zombie and clicking him to swing your axe.
  • #17
    I'm glad they took that out, it was really annoying, specially when you don't know the game so well and you have to keep clicking just to hit the damn monster once.
  • #18
    Well traits could make your hit chance higher, or some skills could be guarenteed hits, or runes of certain skills could make them lower damage but a guarenteed hit. Things like that all don't include a stat you have to gear around to make them higher, but still give you some control over your hit chance. I think Bashiok's main point was that they didn't want it to be something you had to grind towards or know what number equals what percentage, and instead it would just be told in straight percentages.

    And the idea is that the 5% miss chance for some attacks is in order to make up for the "skill" it takes to lead targets when you're using ranged attacks. And the melee classes' damage output will be balanced around it, so its not like ranged attackers will automatically do more if they're able to hit with every attack.


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  • #19
    I think that it's an unnecessary stat.
  • #20
    I did not notice AR that much in the game lol. Only in D1 did I really ever bother to like do anything with it.
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