Yeah, I think just a straight-up table would work best for this page. Since the affixes are the only focal point for the page, there's no reason we'd want to have them be collapsible and you know my position on the sortable part by this point.
I was messing around with the affix template in the sandbox...since I obviously don't know how to make all this work, it was mostly trial and error, but I saved it so it could be looked at. I changed it to include a separate sortable list for each prefixes and suffixes, and changed the header (mainly deleted the "magic and rare" part so it could be used with items that can't be rare; i.e. charms). The suffix list is shorter than the prefix list for some reason, but anyway...am I on the right track?
I noticed the sandbox was entirely wrong. As the good little housedwarf I am, and censoring overlord, instead of moving it I opted to delete it and move the content instead. changed all links in this thread to Diablo_Wiki:Sandbox
Originally my intent was just to use two templates, since there's great benefit to having both collapsible. If I want to look for suffixes, I don't want to scroll through a list of prefixes first. Both can be easily combined on the template page.
Also, both jewels and charms have no additional information, such as item stats, to display on their pages, so there's really no need for a collapsible table there as space is not an issue. I figured we would just stick with the current format for them.
EDIT: The Sandbox has been updated. I was about to make a template out of the table used to list the poison, but since it will only be used on one page in total I didn't bother.
I added some breaks between each affix, as I figured it looked much better if it was clear where it turned from one affix to another.
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Make sure you check all affixes for errors though. I found out a Beryl for all equipable items but weapons that you'd missed, and I also suspect that one of the levels for the charms might be off. The large charm is at one place displayed as having a higher level req. than the small charm of the same effect.
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Looking good. It will need to be noted somewhere though that the ones listed in yellow are applicable to both rare and magic items, and the blues apply only to magic items. Otherwise it's rather ambiguous what the colors even mean. "Do the yellows only appear on rare items?"
Edit: OK. The Affix List template now includes a note about blue/yellow text only on the prefix section of non-charm item types. Item types excluded from this note are (case sensitive):
charms
Small Charms
Large Charms
Grand Charms
OK, 2 quick questions regarding the Affix Table you made. First, can we just get rid of the "lvl" header on the table? This is because there are many prefixes that add the exact same bonus to different items, but those different items have different levels. For example: Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
There are also items that fall under a single prefix, but are divided within that prefix to add different bonuses. This one's pretty confusing, but in the following example, level 1 Small Charms can get +2-4 AR and level 21 Small Charm can get +6-12, but they're both "Bronze" either way: Bronze * +2-12 to Attack Rating * Small Charms(1[2-4];21[6-12])
Second, is there any way to make different colors for different item type? Right now you just type in "magic" or "rare" in the one section and it colors it appropriately, which is great. Unfortunately, there are some affixes that occur on both magic and rare items, and I don't know how to make those separate colors as it's set up now. Again, for example: Fletcher’s * +1 to Bow and Crossbow Skills (Amazon only) * Bows(rare-20) Crossbows(rare-20) Gloves(rare-20) Grand Charms(magic-50)
If we merely provide a mirror of the info in the exact same format as the info is on Arreat Summit, what's the point? There's nothing wrong with being a little verbose with our presentation of this stuff. Personally, I think the way we have the table right now is the best, as it allows for sorting based on level, which I think is rather cool.
It's not going to be a mirror of the Arreat Summit; there are several features with how we're setting it up that make it far more user-friendly. The sortable lists are cool, but they're just too bulky and cumbersome. The page already exceeds the "recommended" size, and the suffixes haven't even been added yet. Sorting based on level might be cool, but how useful is it really? Whenever I've gone to check affixes in the 8 or 9 years that I've played this game, the level of the affix has never been the reason for my curiosity or my goal on the page. It's kind of just included for sake of completion IMO. The fact of the matter is that if "Prefix X" occurs on "Item Y" at "Level Z," there's only so many ways you can present that information.
Looking good. It will need to be noted somewhere though that the ones listed in yellow are applicable to both rare and magic items, and the blues apply only to magic items. Otherwise it's rather ambiguous what the colors even mean. "Do the yellows only appear on rare items?"
Edit: OK. The Affix List template now includes a note about blue/yellow text only on the prefix section of non-charm item types. Item types excluded from this note are (case sensitive):
charms
Small Charms
Large Charms
Grand Charms
Question: Won't the text then be displayed on all pages and on all templates, excluding the three to be used on the Charms (Diablo II) page? Also, with the current design, it's not a very practical solution, as two Affix List templates will be used for each item: one to display the prefixes, the other the suffixes, meaning the text will appear twice on each item page right next to each other.
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
OK, 2 quick questions regarding the Affix Table you made. First, can we just get rid of the "lvl" header on the table? This is because there are many prefixes that add the exact same bonus to different items, but those different items have different levels. For example: Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
There are also items that fall under a single prefix, but are divided within that prefix to add different bonuses. This one's pretty confusing, but in the following example, level 1 Small Charms can get +2-4 AR and level 21 Small Charm can get +6-12, but they're both "Bronze" either way: Bronze * +2-12 to Attack Rating * Small Charms(1[2-4];21[6-12])
Which I think warrants us to separate between different levels and versions, not jumble them together. The level then becomes crucial in actually knowing when a charm can spawn with improved powers.
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
Second, is there any way to make different colors for different item type? Right now you just type in "magic" or "rare" in the one section and it colors it appropriately, which is great. Unfortunately, there are some affixes that occur on both magic and rare items, and I don't know how to make those separate colors as it's set up now. Again, for example: Fletcher’s * +1 to Bow and Crossbow Skills (Amazon only) * Bows(rare-20) Crossbows(rare-20) Gloves(rare-20) Grand Charms(magic-50)
That's what the yellow is for. All yellow affixes can also appear on magic items.
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
It's not going to be a mirror of the Arreat Summit; there are several features with how we're setting it up that make it far more user-friendly. The sortable lists are cool, but they're just too bulky and cumbersome. The page already exceeds the "recommended" size, and the suffixes haven't even been added yet.
Well, the "recommended size" isn't all that important. Could have been a problem some years ago.
And how is sorting making it cumbersome? There's little to no harm in actually having it there, especially in the master list. And if we are to have a master list, sorting by item type is still a very good thing to have.
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Question: Won't the text then be displayed on all pages and on all templates, excluding the three to be used on the Charms (Diablo II) page? Also, with the current design, it's not a very practical solution, as two Affix List templates will be used for each item: one to display the prefixes, the other the suffixes, meaning the text will appear twice on each item page right next to each other.
Take a look at the template again--it ONLY shows up on a Prefix section, so as to keep it from appearing twice.
Quote from ""Kickin_It"" »
It's not going to be a mirror of the Arreat Summit; there are several features with how we're setting it up that make it far more user-friendly. The sortable lists are cool, but they're just too bulky and cumbersome. The page already exceeds the "recommended" size, and the suffixes haven't even been added yet.
The design you propose is exactly how Arreat Summit lists the affixes. Nothing we would have is any different than what is there. The sortable lists make it unique, and any modern web browser has a page-search function so length is a non-issue. Also, as someone who has a personal wiki of their own, I can tell you that the MediaWiki warning for size is irrelevant and is just a guideline.
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I'm really starting to feel like we're running in circles here.
Quote from "dNA" »
The design you propose is exactly how Arreat Summit lists the affixes. Nothing we would have is any different than what is there.
I realize that, but I don't see how that's particularly important. Yes, I know we want to be bigger and better than AS, but like I said, there's only so many ways this particular set of information can be presented. Here's another example: I think we can agree that a cheeseburger (ignoring fixins and condiments) is made of two buns, a hamburger patty, and a slice of cheese. Now, if I were to ask you to present me that information in a different way, how would you do it?
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
Which I think warrants us to separate between different levels and versions, not jumble them together. The level then becomes crucial in actually knowing when a charm can spawn with improved powers.
Agreed, to a degree. Yes, the level is important, but I don't see any reason to separate them when we could simply indicate that the item receives "Bonus 1" at "Level X" and "Bonus 2" at "Level Y." This kind of thing appears on a lot of affixes, so if we separate them in this way, we're going to wind up with a shitload of affixes. Then it just gets confusing and heavy-handed, and there's no point in spending all this effort to change a list that's already confusing to a confusing list that just looks different.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
That's what the yellow is for. All yellow affixes can also appear on magic items.
Well, yellow items don't indicate that it can appear on magic or rare items, it indicates that it can appear on magic and rare items. Since Charms obviously can't be rare, it would work there, but it wouldn't be ideal as far as I'm concerned. Another good example is the "Cruel" prefix which occurs only on magic weapons at level 51, but can start occurring on rare weapons at level 56.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
And how is sorting making it cumbersome? There's little to no harm in actually having it there, especially in the master list. And if we are to have a master list, sorting by item type is still a very good thing to have.
Here you're contradicting many of your previous posts in this thread:
Quote from PhrozenDragon »
I can't say that the sort function will be crucial here
...
The list doesn't even necessarily have to be sorteable. If the items are just entered in a logical way to begin with, it will be apparent from the beginning what items a given affix spawns on and what not.
...
the focus comes on the actual modifiers instead, since this list is supposed to focus on those, and the item pages deal with them on an item-to-item basis.
I just feel like we came to a good solution, and now we're backtracking, and it's getting frustrating. I've clearly outlined why and how I think we should change it and we've agreed upon everything (eventually) and now all that stuff is being called into question. So I guess if you guys are wanting to go in another (backward) direction, I can just bow out of this one.
OK, 2 quick questions regarding the Affix Table you made. First, can we just get rid of the "lvl" header on the table? This is because there are many prefixes that add the exact same bonus to different items, but those different items have different levels. For example: Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
Yes, that makes sense. Removing the level column for this makes it all smaller and more compact, and it's easy to signify what the parenthesis meanas by putting (lvl) in the header.
This is a little update, simply leaving the level field blank when using the Affix template: Diablo Wiki:Sandbox
Also, how can an affix be available on items in the range 1-4 (Beryl)? Isn't that the same as simply being lvl 1?
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
There are also items that fall under a single prefix, but are divided within that prefix to add different bonuses. This one's pretty confusing, but in the following example, level 1 Small Charms can get +2-4 AR and level 21 Small Charm can get +6-12, but they're both "Bronze" either way: Bronze * +2-12 to Attack Rating * Small Charms(1[2-4];21[6-12])
Here, I am not so sure I agree. We're still displaying levels behind the item, since the level column would be removed, but if the actual bonus is different as well? I know AS lists all affixes with the same name on one row, but is it not helpful here to have it split up instead of adding lots of parenthesis and brackets? I do not see how that will improve readability.
Currently we have six entries for Beryl. We cannot push them all together into one cell and list it as +Poison Resist 3-15%, that will look terrible and won't make it any easier to read, since every item in the last cell will have to have their own resists specified.
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
Second, is there any way to make different colors for different item type? Right now you just type in "magic" or "rare" in the one section and it colors it appropriately, which is great. Unfortunately, there are some affixes that occur on both magic and rare items, and I don't know how to make those separate colors as it's set up now. Again, for example: Fletcher’s * +1 to Bow and Crossbow Skills (Amazon only) * Bows(rare-20) Crossbows(rare-20) Gloves(rare-20) Grand Charms(magic-50)
You can't make them separate right now, and making it so that select words would have different colors inside the same cell, and different words in different order from table to table? That's going to be problematic I think. I don't know how it would be done in an easy manner.
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This is a little update, simply leaving the level field blank when using the Affix template: Diablo Wiki:Sandbox
Cool, that looks perfect.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
Also, how can an affix be available on items in the range 1-4 (Beryl)? Isn't that the same as simply being lvl 1?
Not sure what your confusion is on this one...but that kind of thing happens a lot.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
Here, I am not so sure I agree. We're still displaying levels behind the item, since the level column would be removed, but if the actual bonus is different as well? I know AS lists all affixes with the same name on one row, but is it not helpful here to have it split up instead of adding lots of parenthesis and brackets? I do not see how that will improve readability.
Currently we have six entries for Beryl. We cannot push them all together into one cell and list it as +Poison Resist 3-15%, that will look terrible and won't make it any easier to read, since every item in the last cell will have to have their own resists specified.
I see where you're coming from here, and you make a good point, but I think it might start to look pretty repetitive when we have 2 affixes back-to-back with the same name and same item. I definitely agree that it can get pretty difficult to read with the parentheses and brackets, especially when there are 4 or 5 different items that it happens on for a single affix. But, on that same note, that means we're going to have to add 4 or 5 more cells to the table too. Some items even have 3+ level divisions within the affix, so I guess you really just have to make a decision on which is worse, and it's kind of the lesser of two evils. However, I still think that keeping them all on one cell is preferable.
Quote from "PhrozenDragon" »
You can't make them separate right now, and making it so that select words would have different colors inside the same cell, and different words in different order from table to table? That's going to be problematic I think. I don't know how it would be done in an easy manner.
There's no way to just remove the section for the table where you specify "magic" or "rare" and just use the hex code like
within the table?
Not sure what your confusion is on this one...but that kind of thing happens a lot.
Well, I might be misunderstanding how affixes work, but it is says level 55, then I assume that means the item level has to be lvl 55 for the affix to spawn, correct? Meaning any item 55 or above can have that specific affix.
By that reasoning, an item with level 1-4 is exactly the same as lvl 1. If the items has an item level of 1, it can spawn it always, so why specify it as 1.4 if it has no purpose?
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
I see where you're coming from here, and you make a good point, but I think it might start to look pretty repetitive when we have 2 affixes back-to-back with the same name and same item. I definitely agree that it can get pretty difficult to read with the parentheses and brackets, especially when there are 4 or 5 different items that it happens on for a single affix.
I must argue for readability, so I do not agree. The benefit of listing them several times, though repetitive it might be, is the benefit of making it easy to distinguish hat is actually displayed on the page. You can quickly see that you're looking at emerald, and you can also quickly tell that it, and all other cells, are sorted in order of least powerful item to most powerful. Thus you know within seconds how this and all other affixes are sorted. Keeping the items separated then makes it easy to see what items can spawn with the most powerful bonuses; the further down, the better.
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
But, on that same note, that means we're going to have to add 4 or 5 more cells to the table too. Some items even have 3+ level divisions within the affix, so I guess you really just have to make a decision on which is worse, and it's kind of the lesser of two evils. However, I still think that keeping them all on one cell is preferable.
Right. But, since we're going to divide these up by headers, it will still be easy to navigate the page, despite the added length.
Quote from "Kickin_It" »
There's no way to just remove the section for the table where you specify "magic" or "rare" and just use the hex code like
within the table?
Well, of course there's the grunt-work way and include that manually every time the template is used.
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By that reasoning, an item with level 1-4 is exactly the same as lvl 1. If the items has an item level of 1, it can spawn it always, so why specify it as 1.4 if it has no purpose?
Because some affixes have a maximum level that they can't spawn over.
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Diablo Wiki:Sandbox
Originally my intent was just to use two templates, since there's great benefit to having both collapsible. If I want to look for suffixes, I don't want to scroll through a list of prefixes first. Both can be easily combined on the template page.
Also, both jewels and charms have no additional information, such as item stats, to display on their pages, so there's really no need for a collapsible table there as space is not an issue. I figured we would just stick with the current format for them.
EDIT: The Sandbox has been updated. I was about to make a template out of the table used to list the poison, but since it will only be used on one page in total I didn't bother.
I added some breaks between each affix, as I figured it looked much better if it was clear where it turned from one affix to another.
Edit: OK. The Affix List template now includes a note about blue/yellow text only on the prefix section of non-charm item types. Item types excluded from this note are (case sensitive):
charms
Small Charms
Large Charms
Grand Charms
Jagged * +1 to Maximum Damage * Grand Charms(7) Large Charms(22) Small Charms (81)
There are also items that fall under a single prefix, but are divided within that prefix to add different bonuses. This one's pretty confusing, but in the following example, level 1 Small Charms can get +2-4 AR and level 21 Small Charm can get +6-12, but they're both "Bronze" either way:
Bronze * +2-12 to Attack Rating * Small Charms(1[2-4];21[6-12])
Second, is there any way to make different colors for different item type? Right now you just type in "magic" or "rare" in the one section and it colors it appropriately, which is great. Unfortunately, there are some affixes that occur on both magic and rare items, and I don't know how to make those separate colors as it's set up now. Again, for example:
Fletcher’s * +1 to Bow and Crossbow Skills (Amazon only) * Bows(rare-20) Crossbows(rare-20) Gloves(rare-20) Grand Charms(magic-50)
Thanks.
Question: Won't the text then be displayed on all pages and on all templates, excluding the three to be used on the Charms (Diablo II) page? Also, with the current design, it's not a very practical solution, as two Affix List templates will be used for each item: one to display the prefixes, the other the suffixes, meaning the text will appear twice on each item page right next to each other.
Which I think warrants us to separate between different levels and versions, not jumble them together. The level then becomes crucial in actually knowing when a charm can spawn with improved powers.
That's what the yellow is for. All yellow affixes can also appear on magic items.
Well, the "recommended size" isn't all that important. Could have been a problem some years ago.
And how is sorting making it cumbersome? There's little to no harm in actually having it there, especially in the master list. And if we are to have a master list, sorting by item type is still a very good thing to have.
Take a look at the template again--it ONLY shows up on a Prefix section, so as to keep it from appearing twice.
The design you propose is exactly how Arreat Summit lists the affixes. Nothing we would have is any different than what is there. The sortable lists make it unique, and any modern web browser has a page-search function so length is a non-issue. Also, as someone who has a personal wiki of their own, I can tell you that the MediaWiki warning for size is irrelevant and is just a guideline.
I realize that, but I don't see how that's particularly important. Yes, I know we want to be bigger and better than AS, but like I said, there's only so many ways this particular set of information can be presented. Here's another example: I think we can agree that a cheeseburger (ignoring fixins and condiments) is made of two buns, a hamburger patty, and a slice of cheese. Now, if I were to ask you to present me that information in a different way, how would you do it?
Agreed, to a degree. Yes, the level is important, but I don't see any reason to separate them when we could simply indicate that the item receives "Bonus 1" at "Level X" and "Bonus 2" at "Level Y." This kind of thing appears on a lot of affixes, so if we separate them in this way, we're going to wind up with a shitload of affixes. Then it just gets confusing and heavy-handed, and there's no point in spending all this effort to change a list that's already confusing to a confusing list that just looks different.
Well, yellow items don't indicate that it can appear on magic or rare items, it indicates that it can appear on magic and rare items. Since Charms obviously can't be rare, it would work there, but it wouldn't be ideal as far as I'm concerned. Another good example is the "Cruel" prefix which occurs only on magic weapons at level 51, but can start occurring on rare weapons at level 56.
Here you're contradicting many of your previous posts in this thread:
I just feel like we came to a good solution, and now we're backtracking, and it's getting frustrating. I've clearly outlined why and how I think we should change it and we've agreed upon everything (eventually) and now all that stuff is being called into question. So I guess if you guys are wanting to go in another (backward) direction, I can just bow out of this one.
Yes, that makes sense. Removing the level column for this makes it all smaller and more compact, and it's easy to signify what the parenthesis meanas by putting (lvl) in the header.
This is a little update, simply leaving the level field blank when using the Affix template: Diablo Wiki:Sandbox
Also, how can an affix be available on items in the range 1-4 (Beryl)? Isn't that the same as simply being lvl 1?
Here, I am not so sure I agree. We're still displaying levels behind the item, since the level column would be removed, but if the actual bonus is different as well? I know AS lists all affixes with the same name on one row, but is it not helpful here to have it split up instead of adding lots of parenthesis and brackets? I do not see how that will improve readability.
Currently we have six entries for Beryl. We cannot push them all together into one cell and list it as +Poison Resist 3-15%, that will look terrible and won't make it any easier to read, since every item in the last cell will have to have their own resists specified.
You can't make them separate right now, and making it so that select words would have different colors inside the same cell, and different words in different order from table to table? That's going to be problematic I think. I don't know how it would be done in an easy manner.
Cool, that looks perfect.
Not sure what your confusion is on this one...but that kind of thing happens a lot.
I see where you're coming from here, and you make a good point, but I think it might start to look pretty repetitive when we have 2 affixes back-to-back with the same name and same item. I definitely agree that it can get pretty difficult to read with the parentheses and brackets, especially when there are 4 or 5 different items that it happens on for a single affix. But, on that same note, that means we're going to have to add 4 or 5 more cells to the table too. Some items even have 3+ level divisions within the affix, so I guess you really just have to make a decision on which is worse, and it's kind of the lesser of two evils. However, I still think that keeping them all on one cell is preferable.
There's no way to just remove the section for the table where you specify "magic" or "rare" and just use the hex code like
within the table?
Well, I might be misunderstanding how affixes work, but it is says level 55, then I assume that means the item level has to be lvl 55 for the affix to spawn, correct? Meaning any item 55 or above can have that specific affix.
By that reasoning, an item with level 1-4 is exactly the same as lvl 1. If the items has an item level of 1, it can spawn it always, so why specify it as 1.4 if it has no purpose?
I must argue for readability, so I do not agree. The benefit of listing them several times, though repetitive it might be, is the benefit of making it easy to distinguish hat is actually displayed on the page. You can quickly see that you're looking at emerald, and you can also quickly tell that it, and all other cells, are sorted in order of least powerful item to most powerful. Thus you know within seconds how this and all other affixes are sorted. Keeping the items separated then makes it easy to see what items can spawn with the most powerful bonuses; the further down, the better.
Right. But, since we're going to divide these up by headers, it will still be easy to navigate the page, despite the added length.
Well, of course there's the grunt-work way and include that manually every time the template is used.
Because some affixes have a maximum level that they can't spawn over.
Well that explains that quite well