Rolands would need a complete overhaul to be even considered for use in endgame. Buff to armor, double steel skin etc all nice for t6, worthless past gr 38. That may be gr 48 next season but worthless to the endgame is what this set is.
Akkhan stampede would destroy a rolands set in damage just with the mechanic of how they work, what I mean is that I can fill my screen with adds and ponies will hit the majority of them with proper positioning. No amount of positioning/inflated sheet dps will let a roland setup match stamp on that alone, never mind the glaring survival/wrath issues. The points about the Akkhan runes were well made though, interesting idea.
Looks like the performance gap is going to get bigger with the new dh setups, not that I hate I have one and am glad that they are going back to a player driven setup.
I find it funny that blizzard was concerned about 'balance' going into this season and let Crusaders/WD(don't play wiz/monk, don't care either) into the season with about 1/2 the damage potential when looking at near full optimization. It makes me laugh when I have a lightning sentry dh that can do damn near 1b dmg per second (much much more in a non single target situation) to my sader's 200m single target. I think the dh is fine where it is, no need for nerf etc. Hope barb gets single target love, and I hope that this class gets a complete overhaul from someone who sees further than mediocre T4-6 builds.
As far as posting, top 250 on the crusader lb or no one gives a shit. My name on the thread op I want to know that I'm talking to people who put in effort and know the class before I waste my time with idiots looking to troll.
Let's get away from math for a second, you don't seem to understand that when you start with a negative amount of something any addition that puts you into a positive value isn't a total number buff, its only a buff when you've over come the negative value. That's the buff amount, what your left with after clearing the negative value.
What level gr progression is your highest, on any character in solo play? I'm 39 on my Crusader, 37 on DH,36 on WD. I ran the wd/dh for some change of flavor when I get sick of losing a ton of damage from stampede to horrid maps.
Dude if you remove the items mentioned you'd be left with the fact that those classes have passives that buff them no matter the weapon choice. My argument uses those items to overkill my point, its why you apply your argument to some examples I used, not all, and in an incorrect way to boot. In the case of BF you tried, but since you don't seem to understand how barbs generate/maintain fury you end up coming out on the weaker side of the argument once again. It is very easy and fluid to use ww in a EQ t6 farm build, and never ever dip below 90% fury even single target on a rift guardian.I do it all the time and never do I go below 90%. As far as endgame EQ from what I've seen they don't use spenders, so no punishment there what so ever. Raekors falls into the same catagory. In the case of GF, globe generation can be assured with several talent selections, and further augmented by an amulet equip, I.E. in that case it is up to the player to maintain the buff. Failure to do so means that player must get better at keeping stacks up if the talent is to remain optimal.
Gruesome Feast/Pierce the Veil etc, were mentioned for the specific reason that they are part of end game builds, and do not in any way interact with weapon selection, none of the passives I mentioned interact with weapon selection in that way, nor should they, it creates poor diversity choices, and a glass ceiling for progression. Not saying that the current set based meta doesn't do just that it does, but not on the same level. Neither does the base damage of Companion Call: Wolf, Big Bad Vodoo, nor Wrath of the Berzerker see any sort of modification to damage to 'preserve balance' within those classes
If I were wrong about HS being a debuff, then you could remove it and not see a difference in damage. As it is, it does lower damage in a very specific way, by removing 20% of the 35% bonus from AC based on the weapon used. An affix that lowers damage or performance in that way is a....debuff. If you removed that debuff you would see a gap widen between 1h/2h for crusaders, and as stated this is an end game thread, not a T6 or lower thread so if you're not O.K. with that you have every right not to post, or to say you disagree. Don't monopolize this thread with false information please, because I for one don't believe that great big -20% is anything but a punishment for using tools that we need to use to progress. Neither do I believe in the idiocy that leads people to believe that it is O.K. to remove performance from one area of a class/build to cover a bigger lack of performance in another area. I'm talking about the opinions you've stated multiple times in your posts.
I understand from your posts that you are a passionate person about 1h, so I invite you to create a thread that looks at what would be needed to buff them. Because at the end of the day we as a class are not doing enough damage for high progression, and the first thing that jumps out at me is a giant -20% next to damage granted by skills, which becomes +15% when I activate AC. Not 35%, as advertised. Trying to tell me that I'm actually buffed by 43% is laughable when you consider that damage for all 2h weps regardless of class was buffed. Not just damage for crusaders, all classes.
Unless your math shows crusaders doing 20% more baseline damage than every other class, I see no reason for this debuff that is HS. If you want to bring the shield argument up, your more than welome to it, but Unrelenting Phalanx/FR don't stack up to other "class specific" slot equips, such as Vial Ward, Bombadiers Rucksack, Met.Bolts, Mask of Jeram/TMF. WD's have their own set of issues in progression, but damage done when pets are alive isn't one of them trust me. Which is not to say nerf others, leave them alone. In the case of barb it seems a bad joke to give them tools capable of clearing trash to RG in a GR 52 then leaving them with nowhere near enough single target to get the job done. Does not sound rewarding in the slightest. This is also not a 'nerf furnace/unity/soj" etc thread. We like those things, they help with progression and are standards for end game. RROG as well.
Unless you operate under the premise that crusaders do that much more damage than other classes baseline, which we don't. We don't even have the best weapon scaling, that goes to barbs and dh next I believe. As far as the validity of your math, sorry but you'll have to actually top the kill time of a crusader with roughly the same stat with the only difference being a 1h for me to believe. Reason being that type of D3V gear testing leaves out crit/crit damage/leg affixes which do affect game play/performance in a huge way. The reason that DH/WD use spread sheets was to get around this and remove any bias in results from omission of data.
As far as your oppinion that HS is better than its peers, you just had the bad luck of trying that argument on someone who plays WD/Sader/DH/Barb. A lot. Every other 20% passive destroys HS based on the fact that you can use whatever weapon you want without losing damage from your class specific on use cool down outside of base damage lost for weapon selection. Those talents even leave room for further reward, an aware WD who uses spirit walk well will have a much greater uptime on 5 stack GF. if you want to bring up the mana usage from PTV that is negated in several ways, which involve playcraft and gearing. So too with a demon hunter who is well practiced with Steady Aim and Nightstalker. NS is a defensive talent but a very powerful and engaging one that is a blast to play with.
Please feel free to make a thread regarding the state of 1h v2h in game currently, I'd support it. As far as this thread is concerned, the guy who I asked not to post provided more factual information with one sentance than you've managed in numberous posts, that sentance being " we don't clear trash as fast as a barb." Look at the vid for the 44 clear by Alkizer, then look at at the video of Wudjio's 49 clear or the R1 Barb clear. Either of two mentioned would have done that 44 rift in probably under ten minutes, I'm not slighting Alkizer in the slighest.I'm glad people are pushing this class and hope for further progression. Doesn't have to come from me, would be nice but if its not then the world keeps spinning. If you think that Crusaders deal 20% more baseline damage than other classes then I think our conversation is over, much to the relief of the mod's I'll bet, and I bid you good day.
It is punishment 100%, if you knew anything about any other class at all you would realize that that far greater multiplier mechanics are already in game. Barbarians have several to pair with Raekor's/Vial Ward, Mask of Jeram OR Sacrafice PTP stacked with Pierce the Veil and/or Gruesome Feast, attack speed breakpoints for demon hunters combined with passives like Steady Aim/Cull, all of which provide massive damage upgrades far in excess of 20%. Not to mention that each class has at minimum on use bonus 20% dmg, and some higher.
What we have is a penalty stroke 20% while using 2h, again a unique mechanic to this class. Jade doc's don't do 20% less damage for use of a 2h as opposed to a 1h/mojo, Raekor barbs don't lose 20% dmg for not using 2x1h weps. What we have is nothing even close to what I've mentioned above, those things that I've listed are just there, regardless of weapon used, and as every class except dh that I listed uses Furnace in an end game build I'm having a difficulty grasping how/where the imbalance would be with the removal of this debuff. As others point out we lack damage, HS is not balance it is a piss poor penalty stroke for people using 2h a weapon that was the endgame design to begin with.
Also, the debuff from HS is 20%, not 50%. You're confusing the difference in base weapon damage with how the HS skill interacts with the class.No other class loses 20% off of its major damage boosting skill for the sake of "balance." I'm not interested in any imaginary fantasy land math either, I've done enough in game testing between the two to know that's accurate.
That debuff is applied to the bonus granted by AC, so that's why I say its punishment, and it is. It is not balance in the slighest, as the group of people who'd be using one handers on a steady basis won't be pushing a gr 50, you wouldn't likley make 40. So what we come to is the corner that you've argued yourself into. This season one handers are not viable end game. Where they are viable is t6, where you wouldn't notice the damage difference thanks to the relatively low hp of mobs compared to grift 40+. HS punishes the player looking for next level progression for the sake of a group of people who as you're so aptly demonstrating have not a clue as to how damage is fully applied or the content level we're trying to apply it to.
Shitty quality of life choices for the sake of balance, and most ironic the people who this balance is there for have 0 idea what they're missing anyway.
What I would like to see is a set of passives that reward both styles of play, like a barb or dh, instead of one that punishes the player who uses the 2h for the sake of people like yourself who believe that there needs to by this type of balance for us, when it exists no where else that I've experienced.
"You're confusing poor design with bad weapon class balance. If you sat and compared a "vanilla" 1H weapon with a "vanilla" 2H weapon on a crusader and just timed how long it took to stampede a target to death without a bunch of procs they'd take about the same time, favoring 2H slightly. Why? Because the two weapon types have very similar base DPS.
The difference that you're seeing is because a weapon that already has a 50% damage lead is getting another 50% damage lead (well, closer to 35% after SoJ) and then tick based procs don;t compensate for AS in any way. Should they compensate? Probably not.
Now. If that 100% Phalanx damage bonus 1H weapon was stacked against anything that WASN'T a furnace? The difference would be much less noticeable, and rather than running all Toxin all the time you'd parley the large AS difference into point-cast procs (that 2H weapons are weaker with). that further muddy the actual difference.
You're sitting here trying to compare 1H weapons to the single most powerful per-hit damage weapon in the game, and then assuming that you'll be approaching the use of the weapon types exactly the same. Furnace has been brokenly powerful for a long time, it's not a particularly good comparison point. If (for instance) Sun Keeper had the same legend effect and you were comparing "1H Furnace" to "2H Furnace" the difference would be pretty small, and something that is compensated for by making use of better suited mechanics rather than just approaching the problem the same way."
What I actually did was use a real scenario to prove the fault of your logic. Because in game Furnace is the end game weapon, nothing else comes close. Daydreaming and using abstract and invalid points of measure doesn't change the fact that its a poor design to punish people for using the necessary tools to do endgame content. Saying poor weapon optimization is just plain wrong, and saying that you'd be more or less right if we just ignore things like leg. affixes is even more wrong. Those are the defining attributes of weapons that set them apart from others, and I refuse to ignore something like that because someone feels like arguing an abstract point. In truth the passive Heavenly Strength punishes the end game player on this class, it bites right into the bonus granted by AC, for no real reason.
One final point, the actual topic in this thread is improvements necessary to the class to be able to hit gr 50. Since that's not happening with a 1h, can we forgo any further digression on this moot point?
I agree about the survival issues with rolands as well, but I have doubts that it would match Phalanx in terms of output. I'd have to see actual testing where someone would be able to run a grift 40 against a stampede or condemn build.
The damage gained from the Roland's set is another smoke and mirror show, there isn't a set up you could use that would give Rolands swing for swing the damage of stampede, even after all the debuff/damage capping.
You can maintain that 1h damage is fine all you wish, math and testing to the complete contrary over rule conjecture.
Let me paint a very very basic picture. When something is bad about a class in a Blizzard game, the typical M.O. is to make something else WORSE to gloss over or change public opinion about the original under performer. I give you 2h v 1h, Akkhan v Rolands. I'll repeat myself one last time, somthing that is shit, predicated on shit mechanics (1h) doesn't become less shit by nerfing something else (2h dmg). All it does is fool simple minded people. When I say shit damage I'm saying that in context to gr 40+, not T6. You can face roll T6 with l25 leg gems and decent gear with nearly any weapon.
One last thing, how long do you think it would take to go through 50 billion hp with a 1h, any 1h vs a Furnace? The guy using a Furnace will have killed the rg, gone for a smoke break and started the next rift before you got through that 50B rg with a 1h. I'm not knocking people who like 1h or the builds around them. However those are casual builds, not ment for endgame content.
A 1h that increased Phalanx by 100%? Too bad a Furnace applied Pain Enhancer tick from my 45 gem would likley do more damage, not to mention the actual cast as elite damage is on a different dr table than items/skills that boost another skill, a 1h that buffed Phalanx dmg would likley dr with Lord Commander passive, making something like that far from optimal. Also, base damage from a Furnace or 2h flail being so much higher would crush Pain Enhancer, which ends up being a good portion of damage.
[quote=yuhanz;/members/206924-yuhanz;/forums/diablo-iii-class-forums/crusader-the-church-of-zakarum/97515-what-holds-this-class-back-from-gr-50?comment=2]I think saders have the same problem with other classes as regards to resource management hence why Akkhan's is basically essential.
spenders are too weak damage/resource, resource generation is too low/slow, plus it's meelee.
Pretty sure the reason why Akkhan's is so essential is due to the perma 150% armor and cheat death mechanic from the prophet rune, ofc resource management is important. Not trying to say your wrong, I just think you make it sound like it is only taken for resource. =)
@OP: The main reason's I see that are holding back crusaders atm are the dmg scaling of GR. The majority of the high GR builds provide a way of you avoiding more or less all dmg. As a crusader we have very limited ways for this, we can't perma cc like a raekor barb and we can't deal dmg to mobs off screen standing in safety like DH and wiz.
Crusaders, like most melee builds really, take a shit ton of dmg which translate into our builds and gearing having to focus alot more on defensives that what we imo have to. We are more or less forced into taking AC-prophet in order to have any hopes of staying alive, and gear is so locked in terms of what stats we need, CDR f
Ofc our resource is also a problem, our generation is just so slow. Furthermore our spenders are actually rather expensive, which makes the akkhan set even more desireable. If we don't take that set we are usually spending far too much time trying to gather wrath than spend it. We do have a passive to buff our generation, but imo our passives are slightly too locked in place leaving very limited options.
Our dmg is actually rather strong, depending on build ST may be too low. But since our viable builds are so CDR dependant, we lose out on alot of offense since we also need to focus alot of defensive stats due to being melee.
Valid points, as anyone who's played a Roland's build knows we are married to the Akkhan set for reliable wrath re gen, as well as toughness.
One thing that really stands out to me as well is the Heavenly Strength debuff. We are as of present designed around 2h weapons, BOP, Furnace,FOTF etc. I shouldn't have to say it, but each build has its own place in terms of T6 farming speed/GR viability. Considering this the 20% damage penalty makes no sense to me what so ever, as 2h weps were buffed for every class that could use them not just Crusaders.
I may be wrong on this one, but I think blizzard stated that the reason why we didn't get the real 2h buff, was because they were satisfied with how our 1h dmg compared to 2h dmg. After that they just failed to put a 1h worth using apart from darklight in the game, but that's a different story.
------My entire point is that it makes no sense to force us into the 2h route and then punish us for it. I do not care about one handers and I'm sure most people going for 40+ progression don't either, and here's why: The higher base damage on the 2h, especially one like The Furnace destroy's any one hander regardless of attack speed, so no matter what that 1h will never compete with a Furnace or BoP, even Maximus is better than any 1h weapon currently.
Also as an adult I can't wrap my head around this concpt that something works great, its just missing something. If something is shit, its shit. One handers fall into this catagory. There isn't a proc/effet/ability that is even going to come close to a potential 50% damage boost to elites.
The dev team normalizing 2h to lousy 1h for..reasons wasn't a good move for us.
Gonna take the time to point out that it's possible (though require's specific gear) to get around resource costs on Sader's. In fact I'm working ona set of gear for a full on Shield Basher in Roland's without need for a generator or akkan. It's going to work, but it's also going to need gear that is generally considered "weak" (ie Piro Mirella to half Shield Bash Cost)
I would also like to point out that it is probably Blizz's intention (to some degree) that classes not just spam spender's constantly and actually have to rely to some degree on generator's.
If Sader spender's hit harder the slower ramp up would be less annoying. Or if sader generation was higher the lower damage would be less annoying. I'd rather see the former as a solution than the latter, if only because monks have seemed to have been intended for the latter and it feels bad for many players as far as I can tell.
Really the only thing holding current best geared saders back is being melee. Some of the stuff coming up on the PTR will change that significantly. Once some of the 1H crusader options get tweaked we'll probably see them more, but from a raw DPS perspective HS is equivalent to its 1H counterpart. It's just the damage support on legendaries that is significantly lacking (though not entirely across the board *stares at thunderfury)
--------I'd like to point out that Stampede is a ranged build, and should be used as such unless you have a rift full of zombies or other weak mobs you don't look to be in the middle of them. Steed charging through for a re position is about the most you can get away with otherwise you begin taking large amounts of damage.
I hope I was clear that this isn't a discussion about T6 farming, while I welcome your posts I disagree with both, and here's why. One handers are awful. As it stands that's not changing, so making 2h's slightly less bad but still bad to gloss over how poor 1h are wasn't an answer.
On the topic of Rolands I can't see any reason for the set's introduction other than to make the Akkhan set seem really good in comparison, when in point of fact it is dating itself very quickly. As far as energy management for roland's goes, again you're fine running no generator in T6. Try that set in gr41 and 42 and feel free to share results. That's why this thread is here. I like the set but its pure trash and a smoke screen.
I don't mean to offer any insult, but seeing the class as it is intended to work in high progression is the point of the thread, and there isn't a one hander in the game that's going to end up on a curz with a 50+ rift.
I agree with the 500 str being a waste beyond a certain point, and lets be honest that 500 str won't be missed by any T6 farmers. Of course if Phalanx wasn't damage capped on top of the 20% HS debuff and we had a set bonus that added damage to spenders that would go a long way to fixing up the class.
This isn't a keep us where we are type of thread, if you can't contribute an actual idea about where we can improve in solo gr/class design please don't post.
Valid points, as anyone who's played a Roland's build knows we are married to the Akkhan set for reliable wrath re gen, as well as toughness.
One thing that really stands out to me as well is the Heavenly Strength debuff. We are as of present designed around 2h weapons, BOP, Furnace,FOTF etc. I shouldn't have to say it, but each build has its own place in terms of T6 farming speed/GR viability. Considering this the 20% damage penalty makes no sense to me what so ever, as 2h weps were buffed for every class that could use them not just Crusaders.
The title says it all, I'm curious as to what the community of Crusader players think about the subject. Do we just not fish rifts as often as DH/Barb, or is there a glass ceiling for this class as far as solo greater rift progression?
This isn't a whine thread, or an excuse to bring up class/rift balance.
Akkhan stampede would destroy a rolands set in damage just with the mechanic of how they work, what I mean is that I can fill my screen with adds and ponies will hit the majority of them with proper positioning. No amount of positioning/inflated sheet dps will let a roland setup match stamp on that alone, never mind the glaring survival/wrath issues. The points about the Akkhan runes were well made though, interesting idea.
I find it funny that blizzard was concerned about 'balance' going into this season and let Crusaders/WD(don't play wiz/monk, don't care either) into the season with about 1/2 the damage potential when looking at near full optimization. It makes me laugh when I have a lightning sentry dh that can do damn near 1b dmg per second (much much more in a non single target situation) to my sader's 200m single target. I think the dh is fine where it is, no need for nerf etc. Hope barb gets single target love, and I hope that this class gets a complete overhaul from someone who sees further than mediocre T4-6 builds.
As far as posting, top 250 on the crusader lb or no one gives a shit. My name on the thread op I want to know that I'm talking to people who put in effort and know the class before I waste my time with idiots looking to troll.
What level gr progression is your highest, on any character in solo play? I'm 39 on my Crusader, 37 on DH,36 on WD. I ran the wd/dh for some change of flavor when I get sick of losing a ton of damage from stampede to horrid maps.
Should be 100%+15%, because that's what you actually get.
Dude if you remove the items mentioned you'd be left with the fact that those classes have passives that buff them no matter the weapon choice. My argument uses those items to overkill my point, its why you apply your argument to some examples I used, not all, and in an incorrect way to boot. In the case of BF you tried, but since you don't seem to understand how barbs generate/maintain fury you end up coming out on the weaker side of the argument once again. It is very easy and fluid to use ww in a EQ t6 farm build, and never ever dip below 90% fury even single target on a rift guardian.I do it all the time and never do I go below 90%. As far as endgame EQ from what I've seen they don't use spenders, so no punishment there what so ever. Raekors falls into the same catagory. In the case of GF, globe generation can be assured with several talent selections, and further augmented by an amulet equip, I.E. in that case it is up to the player to maintain the buff. Failure to do so means that player must get better at keeping stacks up if the talent is to remain optimal.
Gruesome Feast/Pierce the Veil etc, were mentioned for the specific reason that they are part of end game builds, and do not in any way interact with weapon selection, none of the passives I mentioned interact with weapon selection in that way, nor should they, it creates poor diversity choices, and a glass ceiling for progression. Not saying that the current set based meta doesn't do just that it does, but not on the same level. Neither does the base damage of Companion Call: Wolf, Big Bad Vodoo, nor Wrath of the Berzerker see any sort of modification to damage to 'preserve balance' within those classes
If I were wrong about HS being a debuff, then you could remove it and not see a difference in damage. As it is, it does lower damage in a very specific way, by removing 20% of the 35% bonus from AC based on the weapon used. An affix that lowers damage or performance in that way is a....debuff. If you removed that debuff you would see a gap widen between 1h/2h for crusaders, and as stated this is an end game thread, not a T6 or lower thread so if you're not O.K. with that you have every right not to post, or to say you disagree. Don't monopolize this thread with false information please, because I for one don't believe that great big -20% is anything but a punishment for using tools that we need to use to progress. Neither do I believe in the idiocy that leads people to believe that it is O.K. to remove performance from one area of a class/build to cover a bigger lack of performance in another area. I'm talking about the opinions you've stated multiple times in your posts.
I understand from your posts that you are a passionate person about 1h, so I invite you to create a thread that looks at what would be needed to buff them. Because at the end of the day we as a class are not doing enough damage for high progression, and the first thing that jumps out at me is a giant -20% next to damage granted by skills, which becomes +15% when I activate AC. Not 35%, as advertised. Trying to tell me that I'm actually buffed by 43% is laughable when you consider that damage for all 2h weps regardless of class was buffed. Not just damage for crusaders, all classes.
Unless your math shows crusaders doing 20% more baseline damage than every other class, I see no reason for this debuff that is HS. If you want to bring the shield argument up, your more than welome to it, but Unrelenting Phalanx/FR don't stack up to other "class specific" slot equips, such as Vial Ward, Bombadiers Rucksack, Met.Bolts, Mask of Jeram/TMF. WD's have their own set of issues in progression, but damage done when pets are alive isn't one of them trust me. Which is not to say nerf others, leave them alone. In the case of barb it seems a bad joke to give them tools capable of clearing trash to RG in a GR 52 then leaving them with nowhere near enough single target to get the job done. Does not sound rewarding in the slightest. This is also not a 'nerf furnace/unity/soj" etc thread. We like those things, they help with progression and are standards for end game. RROG as well.
Unless you operate under the premise that crusaders do that much more damage than other classes baseline, which we don't. We don't even have the best weapon scaling, that goes to barbs and dh next I believe. As far as the validity of your math, sorry but you'll have to actually top the kill time of a crusader with roughly the same stat with the only difference being a 1h for me to believe. Reason being that type of D3V gear testing leaves out crit/crit damage/leg affixes which do affect game play/performance in a huge way. The reason that DH/WD use spread sheets was to get around this and remove any bias in results from omission of data.
As far as your oppinion that HS is better than its peers, you just had the bad luck of trying that argument on someone who plays WD/Sader/DH/Barb. A lot. Every other 20% passive destroys HS based on the fact that you can use whatever weapon you want without losing damage from your class specific on use cool down outside of base damage lost for weapon selection. Those talents even leave room for further reward, an aware WD who uses spirit walk well will have a much greater uptime on 5 stack GF. if you want to bring up the mana usage from PTV that is negated in several ways, which involve playcraft and gearing. So too with a demon hunter who is well practiced with Steady Aim and Nightstalker. NS is a defensive talent but a very powerful and engaging one that is a blast to play with.
Please feel free to make a thread regarding the state of 1h v2h in game currently, I'd support it. As far as this thread is concerned, the guy who I asked not to post provided more factual information with one sentance than you've managed in numberous posts, that sentance being " we don't clear trash as fast as a barb." Look at the vid for the 44 clear by Alkizer, then look at at the video of Wudjio's 49 clear or the R1 Barb clear. Either of two mentioned would have done that 44 rift in probably under ten minutes, I'm not slighting Alkizer in the slighest.I'm glad people are pushing this class and hope for further progression. Doesn't have to come from me, would be nice but if its not then the world keeps spinning. If you think that Crusaders deal 20% more baseline damage than other classes then I think our conversation is over, much to the relief of the mod's I'll bet, and I bid you good day.
What we have is a penalty stroke 20% while using 2h, again a unique mechanic to this class. Jade doc's don't do 20% less damage for use of a 2h as opposed to a 1h/mojo, Raekor barbs don't lose 20% dmg for not using 2x1h weps. What we have is nothing even close to what I've mentioned above, those things that I've listed are just there, regardless of weapon used, and as every class except dh that I listed uses Furnace in an end game build I'm having a difficulty grasping how/where the imbalance would be with the removal of this debuff. As others point out we lack damage, HS is not balance it is a piss poor penalty stroke for people using 2h a weapon that was the endgame design to begin with.
Also, the debuff from HS is 20%, not 50%. You're confusing the difference in base weapon damage with how the HS skill interacts with the class.No other class loses 20% off of its major damage boosting skill for the sake of "balance." I'm not interested in any imaginary fantasy land math either, I've done enough in game testing between the two to know that's accurate.
That debuff is applied to the bonus granted by AC, so that's why I say its punishment, and it is. It is not balance in the slighest, as the group of people who'd be using one handers on a steady basis won't be pushing a gr 50, you wouldn't likley make 40. So what we come to is the corner that you've argued yourself into. This season one handers are not viable end game. Where they are viable is t6, where you wouldn't notice the damage difference thanks to the relatively low hp of mobs compared to grift 40+. HS punishes the player looking for next level progression for the sake of a group of people who as you're so aptly demonstrating have not a clue as to how damage is fully applied or the content level we're trying to apply it to.
Shitty quality of life choices for the sake of balance, and most ironic the people who this balance is there for have 0 idea what they're missing anyway.
What I would like to see is a set of passives that reward both styles of play, like a barb or dh, instead of one that punishes the player who uses the 2h for the sake of people like yourself who believe that there needs to by this type of balance for us, when it exists no where else that I've experienced.
The difference that you're seeing is because a weapon that already has a 50% damage lead is getting another 50% damage lead (well, closer to 35% after SoJ) and then tick based procs don;t compensate for AS in any way. Should they compensate? Probably not.
Now. If that 100% Phalanx damage bonus 1H weapon was stacked against anything that WASN'T a furnace? The difference would be much less noticeable, and rather than running all Toxin all the time you'd parley the large AS difference into point-cast procs (that 2H weapons are weaker with). that further muddy the actual difference.
You're sitting here trying to compare 1H weapons to the single most powerful per-hit damage weapon in the game, and then assuming that you'll be approaching the use of the weapon types exactly the same. Furnace has been brokenly powerful for a long time, it's not a particularly good comparison point. If (for instance) Sun Keeper had the same legend effect and you were comparing "1H Furnace" to "2H Furnace" the difference would be pretty small, and something that is compensated for by making use of better suited mechanics rather than just approaching the problem the same way."
What I actually did was use a real scenario to prove the fault of your logic. Because in game Furnace is the end game weapon, nothing else comes close. Daydreaming and using abstract and invalid points of measure doesn't change the fact that its a poor design to punish people for using the necessary tools to do endgame content. Saying poor weapon optimization is just plain wrong, and saying that you'd be more or less right if we just ignore things like leg. affixes is even more wrong. Those are the defining attributes of weapons that set them apart from others, and I refuse to ignore something like that because someone feels like arguing an abstract point. In truth the passive Heavenly Strength punishes the end game player on this class, it bites right into the bonus granted by AC, for no real reason.
One final point, the actual topic in this thread is improvements necessary to the class to be able to hit gr 50. Since that's not happening with a 1h, can we forgo any further digression on this moot point?
I agree about the survival issues with rolands as well, but I have doubts that it would match Phalanx in terms of output. I'd have to see actual testing where someone would be able to run a grift 40 against a stampede or condemn build.
You can maintain that 1h damage is fine all you wish, math and testing to the complete contrary over rule conjecture.
Let me paint a very very basic picture. When something is bad about a class in a Blizzard game, the typical M.O. is to make something else WORSE to gloss over or change public opinion about the original under performer. I give you 2h v 1h, Akkhan v Rolands. I'll repeat myself one last time, somthing that is shit, predicated on shit mechanics (1h) doesn't become less shit by nerfing something else (2h dmg). All it does is fool simple minded people. When I say shit damage I'm saying that in context to gr 40+, not T6. You can face roll T6 with l25 leg gems and decent gear with nearly any weapon.
One last thing, how long do you think it would take to go through 50 billion hp with a 1h, any 1h vs a Furnace? The guy using a Furnace will have killed the rg, gone for a smoke break and started the next rift before you got through that 50B rg with a 1h. I'm not knocking people who like 1h or the builds around them. However those are casual builds, not ment for endgame content.
A 1h that increased Phalanx by 100%? Too bad a Furnace applied Pain Enhancer tick from my 45 gem would likley do more damage, not to mention the actual cast as elite damage is on a different dr table than items/skills that boost another skill, a 1h that buffed Phalanx dmg would likley dr with Lord Commander passive, making something like that far from optimal. Also, base damage from a Furnace or 2h flail being so much higher would crush Pain Enhancer, which ends up being a good portion of damage.
@OP: The main reason's I see that are holding back crusaders atm are the dmg scaling of GR. The majority of the high GR builds provide a way of you avoiding more or less all dmg. As a crusader we have very limited ways for this, we can't perma cc like a raekor barb and we can't deal dmg to mobs off screen standing in safety like DH and wiz.
Crusaders, like most melee builds really, take a shit ton of dmg which translate into our builds and gearing having to focus alot more on defensives that what we imo have to. We are more or less forced into taking AC-prophet in order to have any hopes of staying alive, and gear is so locked in terms of what stats we need, CDR f
Ofc our resource is also a problem, our generation is just so slow. Furthermore our spenders are actually rather expensive, which makes the akkhan set even more desireable. If we don't take that set we are usually spending far too much time trying to gather wrath than spend it. We do have a passive to buff our generation, but imo our passives are slightly too locked in place leaving very limited options.
Our dmg is actually rather strong, depending on build ST may be too low. But since our viable builds are so CDR dependant, we lose out on alot of offense since we also need to focus alot of defensive stats due to being melee.
I may be wrong on this one, but I think blizzard stated that the reason why we didn't get the real 2h buff, was because they were satisfied with how our 1h dmg compared to 2h dmg. After that they just failed to put a 1h worth using apart from darklight in the game, but that's a different story.
------My entire point is that it makes no sense to force us into the 2h route and then punish us for it. I do not care about one handers and I'm sure most people going for 40+ progression don't either, and here's why: The higher base damage on the 2h, especially one like The Furnace destroy's any one hander regardless of attack speed, so no matter what that 1h will never compete with a Furnace or BoP, even Maximus is better than any 1h weapon currently.
Also as an adult I can't wrap my head around this concpt that something works great, its just missing something. If something is shit, its shit. One handers fall into this catagory. There isn't a proc/effet/ability that is even going to come close to a potential 50% damage boost to elites.
The dev team normalizing 2h to lousy 1h for..reasons wasn't a good move for us.
--------I'd like to point out that Stampede is a ranged build, and should be used as such unless you have a rift full of zombies or other weak mobs you don't look to be in the middle of them. Steed charging through for a re position is about the most you can get away with otherwise you begin taking large amounts of damage.
I hope I was clear that this isn't a discussion about T6 farming, while I welcome your posts I disagree with both, and here's why. One handers are awful. As it stands that's not changing, so making 2h's slightly less bad but still bad to gloss over how poor 1h are wasn't an answer.
On the topic of Rolands I can't see any reason for the set's introduction other than to make the Akkhan set seem really good in comparison, when in point of fact it is dating itself very quickly. As far as energy management for roland's goes, again you're fine running no generator in T6. Try that set in gr41 and 42 and feel free to share results. That's why this thread is here. I like the set but its pure trash and a smoke screen.
I don't mean to offer any insult, but seeing the class as it is intended to work in high progression is the point of the thread, and there isn't a one hander in the game that's going to end up on a curz with a 50+ rift.
One thing that really stands out to me as well is the Heavenly Strength debuff. We are as of present designed around 2h weapons, BOP, Furnace,FOTF etc. I shouldn't have to say it, but each build has its own place in terms of T6 farming speed/GR viability. Considering this the 20% damage penalty makes no sense to me what so ever, as 2h weps were buffed for every class that could use them not just Crusaders.
This isn't a whine thread, or an excuse to bring up class/rift balance.