Okay, so first of all I did NOT come here to start a fight, but to tell that the build of this guide is NOT the best build there is, at least not average DPS-wise.
Second of all, NONE of my builds is 100 % focused on a perma-archon build, they just ALLOW you, IF you have WorShip Gloves, to SWITCH to them incase you find an Empowered Shrine to make full use of it. It's NOT a must though.
You clearly came here to start a fight, or you wouldn't start going on a tangent on something completly unrelated. His build doesn't focus on archon at all (it has been an afterthought with the 2.0.5 changes). If someone wanted a archon build, then they'd build TOWARDS an archon build, but that's not what this is about. Being able to transform it into an archon build if you want is all fine and such, but you still don't seem to get the point.
Third of all, blaming me for lying? Well, here's the ninja-stealth nerfs they did over a month ago:
1. Magic Missile was adding a DOT for each 3 missiles, this what what MAINLY made it OverPowered.
2. Aracne Power on Crit worked with all 3 misssiles.
3. Life of Hit worked with all 3 missiles.
4. ThunderFury could proc on all 3 missiles.
5. Freeze Effects could proc on all 3 missiles.
6. Stun effects could proc on all 3 missiles.
7. Chill effects could proc on all 3 missiles.
8. HellFire Ring could proc on all 3 missiles.
And pretty much any type of procs had x3 chance and x3 DOT's was means 300 % stronger DOT. There is no question about the hotfix was a huge nerf. I did run T6 mm conflig before nerf and saw the huge difference after the changes.
Sooo... Let me get this straight - your 8 nerfs are in reality ONE nerf, and one thing that has never happened? (Fun fact: All 3 missiles STILL stack up the ignite debuff. That's the entire reason this build works well and does a shitton of singletarget damage).
And as mentioned a second ago - mirrorballs extra missiles not counting in proc coefficients was *one* nerf. Not a ton of seperate nerfs (which you even sort-of admit in the second part of that quote: A lot of proc coefficients was cut) - So: one nerf, and one thing that isn't true. Gotcha. Where's the remaining 6?
Fourth, when you say 510 % weapon damage is a lot you obviously don't know the wizards spells. Both Arcane Torrent and Distintegrate is more, and easily spammed with the used of Diamond Skin Prism and CDR. Also, you obviously have NO clue how powerfull Arachon is, you'd not ONLY have a 700 % weapon dmg spell, but is ABLE to spam 2 of them at the SAME time which BOTH is AOE. With a total of about 1383 % weapon damage and NOT only that, but also a passive that gives you millions of bonus damage and allows you to reach 500m+ eDPS (compatible with pet WD, AvoidLoL is 170-450m avg eDPS for example, a 729paragon WD streamer who shows his D3Recount on the stream). So please DON'T claim that Magic MM conflig is the best spell out there.
And Arcane Torrent/Disintegrate are both arcane *spenders*, which cannot be spammed endlessly the same way MM can. Likewise, they do not have a 165% wep dmg dot that stacks up every cast (turning into far more than both the spells you mentioned).
I am well aware of how powerfull archon is, but for you to go ahead and say the spec is "wrong" because it isn't focused on always being in archon is just fucking asine. I think that's what you don't get - I'm well aware a perma archon build is probably going to be stronger, BUT THAT WASN'T THE FOCUS OF THE GUIDE - YOU CAME BARGING IN HERE AND *MADE IT* ABOUT THAT.
I never claimed MM was the best. Please quote where I stated that. I asked you to find me a spam able spell with a comparable strength. I'm also aware that archon's explosion (melee range) and beam/smash can both be used together. And I'd be a fool to claim that anything wiz has can compare with an archon while in it, because of the fact that it's the class' strongest cooldown. I never claimed this spec was stronger. I said that this spec is fully T6 solo viable and less gear dependant.
Even without gloves of worship or empowered shrine, you'd still want to reach somewhere between 62 and 67 % CDR, to have archon up as much as possible, since it's an increase from 510 % ---> 1383 % weapon dmg, 20 % more base dmg + additionally per kill, AND even more toughness. Anyone who knows simple Algrebra understands this.
No. That's where you're wrong, though. That's where this spec differs from your view of what "EVERYONE HAS TO DO TO NOT SUCK". You want Archon up as much as possible. I have said it what, three times? so far. I'll say it again:
This build relies on Magic Missile as your main nuke, and has the option to take Archon as a cooldown to deal with elites that'd otherwise be harder (maybe you don't like dealing with wallers because MM doesn't break through walls outside of kulle-aid). But since you bring in basic algebra, let me set up some math for you that you apparantly do not understand:
In order to get, say, 65% cool down reduction, you will need:
12.5% Helm gem (losing out on either: 23% life-41% magic find).
20% passive slot (losing out on either - 17% dmg reduc, 6% crit, 10-20% dmg from EE, 15% dmg from audacity).
And now, in order to gain 32.5% more, you need:
8% shoulder (losing out on either 400 armor, 100 all ress, or 20% AOE-damage).
8% gloves (losing 7% IAS - which is a big deal for a Magic Missile build, because you rely on stacking up the ignite fast for higher HP mobs).
The remaining 16.5% comes down to if you want to use Vyr's or not, as you could get 10% from Cpt crimsons. Either way, Vyrs is 20% fire damage lost. Borns loses you out on a good weapon, or 20% fire dmg with the chest. You get the idea. There's the rings as alternatives, where you suddenly can't use a Unity+SoJ if you are using set bonuses (which then loses you out on 100% toughness +12-15% elite dmg, vs 20% fire dmg and 30% elite dmg). Oh, and if you get CDR on those, you lose some of the biggest stats you have (crit/critdmg).
Getting CDR on weapon is a no-go aswell, as 10% weapon damage is probably the single biggest increase in the entire game for your damage.
There's also your source, I guess, but then you'd lose out on 750 vit or 15% magic missile damage. Basicly, also a shitton.
My point is: By the end of getting your 65% or so CDR, atleast if you want to use Vyrs, you have lost about half of your output (be it through lost elemental/elite dmg on SoJ, Cinder/Magefists, and other DPS stats sac'd for CDR) or half of your toughness (if unity) - both choises also has minor effects on the other side, of course (23% life gem lost while losing dps, losing elite dmg on unity with RoRG). Sure, you might be doing 1383% for the duration of archon and have 50% uptime on Archon, but you have to realise that when you have lost so many DPS stats, you're not actually doing 1383% damage instead of 510%+165%stacking dot - you're doing about 700-800%, and outside of archon, you'll likewise suffer in terms of output. A hybrid spec is all fine and dandy, but that's not what this was about, and turning everything into an archon hybrid just to have the option is silly.
But please, if you claim that MM Conflig is highest eDPS and best build for T6, please please please upload a video where you show your eDPS with D3Recount or TurboHUD. I'd gladly see an eDPS 100m+. If not, then STFU, since you clearly haven't done any testing AT ALL. Since you clearly don't even know the spells.
P.S. most packs die before you even reach high stacks, its only on RG and bosses like Malthael you can reach high DPS, and in this case The Furnace is way better.
I'm afraid that I don't quite is as into this game that I play with a ton of addons, so I can't help you there. I would, however, love to see you quote me saying this is "the best spec with the highest dps" anywhere. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, so maybe you should just STFU and actually start reading instead of being a douche? Or is that too hard for you :s?
P.S. - I already explained you the difference between having four geared characters running around doing something vs one. Of course shit is going to die before you blink. That's the entire point of playing in groups. The mobs do not grow stronger at the same rate as the group. They aren't gaining 100% hp per new char joining, and they gain zero damage. You can get away with a shitton of stuff you wouldn't be able to do nearly as easily in a solo game, which is why the whole multiboxing premise doesn't really compare to solo experiences.
I can, however, use ALGEBRA to draw you up a quick calculation -
My MM-Ignites hit for about 10M per, each cast of 3 balls adding a DoT that ticks 4 times over 3 seconds for another 10M total. This DoT is refreshed by each cast.
I do 2x casts a second (long live attack speed).
This means 60M from 6x MM-Ignites, or 60M E-DPS, before the DoT.
The DoT adds 20M damage to the pool per second. 20M 1s, 40M 2s, 60M 3s and so forth. Basic stuff. This means that by the time I have casted six times, I am doing 60M damage per second, along with having a DoT running for 60M damage over 3 seconds (or 20M). So, in order to reach 100M E-DPS, I need to cast 18 times, or attack for nine seconds. Anything after that keeps improving it at a rate of 20M more dmg into the pool per second, untill you let it run out. All the above, I do realise, does not factor in that this has been calculated assuming critical hits. With a 73.5% crit rate (sadly, losing .5% on neck and 1% on gloves) I guess you can go ahead and multiply the above numbers by 0.735 and get the "correct" measurements. The point is, I'm not even sure if 100M e-dps is anything worth mentioning (as I don't use your addons or even is as into this as you), but the ramp up is about 12 seconds to reach that level.
That said, most packs has 500-600M health. So that's under 10 seconds to kill them off if they all get hit by the missiles (so let's say 10 seconds to account for not hitting perfectly etc). Sure, it's not enough to reach that potential. On the other hand, I'm not sitting 50% of the time doing half of that output because Archon is on CD.
LOLOL Mirrorball+cindercoat+magefist all u need for heavy dmg? A person with just that and rest yellow items, barely deals more than 3-8m eDPS. That's extremely terrible. Only thing you said thats true, is that all a person needs use MM Conflig is a mirrorball, but just because the items is easy to collect it doesn't make it best build. In fact, my build doesn't require "luck" to make, just that you farm materials. Meanwhile to get Vyrs, it can take an undefined amount of time. And not only to find some wit proper rolls
You mistake "not gear dependant" with "don't need proper gear". Let me explain you the difference:
If you are wearing Magefists, Cindercoat and Mirrorball as your 3 core items, the: Pants, Helm, Bracers, Shoulders, weapon, boots, neck, and rings are largely irrellevant. You don't need to farm a RoRG for set bonuses (but it helps). You don't need to farm Vyrs set pieces. You could wear blackthornes as long as it had relevant stats, and the 3 items would still carry the build. Heck, as you say yourself, the Mirrorball is really the only thing that is *needed* for the build. I just consider the cindercoat and magefists to be the second and third most important in the spec. Sure, you'll want shoulders that has int and some other stats on them. You'll want a helm with crit and int. You'll be dumb not to get that in any spec, I'm sure we agree. What you don't need, is to hunt for set items, you don't need to hunt for items with CDR, and you don't have a threshold where the spec suddenly "clicks". As you say yourself, you want more than 60% CDR for the spec to work very well. There's no such "threshold" here. That is what I mean by "gear dependant" - you need a shit ton of CDR gear, each on a piece that has to be found/crafted.
Dude, your fun to read, again you state something wrong. You say it gets easier with 4 players on HC, but infact it gets way harder. Yes, DPS wise you can kill faster, BUT the enemies do also have WAY more damage. Show me a video of you multiboxing T6 on HC please, I'm sure you wont even get to 10 % in the rift before you die.Also controlling 4 chars is WAY WAY WAY harder than controlling 1, especially against KnockBack. Untill you've tried it yourself, don't you even speak about it, because you obviously have no clue
I have no interest in either multiboxing, or HC. I find this game quite relaxing in between raids in WoW, and got the main game for free with my annual pass, and bought the expansion with RMAH money. I don't intend to spend more money on it :).That said, for someone who thinks they're knowledgeable about everything, you have really not read up on jack shit. If you were to go ahead and test it for yourself, or even do a quick search on the internet, you would know that the only thing that increases when you have multiple players is the health of the monsters.
What you apparantly do not seem to understand, is that this means you have far less damage going around. Anything that is not specificly AOE-damage is only going to hit one player, who has a fourth of the groups health. Instead of everything, no matter if it is AOE or not, hitting all the players (one person) for however much damage. Considering that all unavoidable damage is largely singletarget, and almost all AOE damage is completly avoidable, that's a pretty fucking big deal. The only AOE-unavoidable I can think of would be Jailer.
But put it this way - you clearly think you're right, and somehow think that your way is the correct way because you are willing to throw money on multiboxing and prefer hardcore. Not much I can do to change your mind then, oh mighty one. I'm afraid that all I can do compared to your skillz of multiboxing in the frightful hardcore enviroment, is research and apply logic rather than jump to conclusions. Perhaps if you'd tried out a mirrorball before going on a rampage, you'd have known that all 3 missiles stack the damage. Or that you take far less damage overall in a 4 person game than a 1 person game, compared to the available health (Fun fact: This is why Blizzard isn't fixing the Unity-trinity of 2x unity, 1x immortal follower. Having that combo essentially makes you as durable as if you were playing in a 2 person team as you take half the damage).
Lol? 10-15 seconds to pickup between each pack? Do you even Box yo? Try watch Inigo on Twitch or a youtube video of someone multiboxing, because you obviously have no clue at all.Only time I stop up to pick up is after RG, and that takes maybe 3-8 seconds. Or a Goblin pack, prolly 15-20.
No, I don't box I'm afraid. Sadly, I base my estimation on personal experience, which actually includes caring about the loot that monsters drop (which means picking up everything and salvaging it. I am on +150 aughild helms at this point, with the best one being 650 int, 640 vit, socket and crit - give me one at +700 int/vit or with gold find%, and I'll be happy, but nope. 90 Veileds per). If you just zerg through everything untill you find a legendary and hear a ding from whatever addon it is that warns you guys about that, then I guess it'll be faster. Personally, I'd imagine it would take me 2-3 seconds to tab and pick up loot on each char after every pack. Which is in line with the 10-15 second estimation. So... How exactly do you like, get gems/veileds/essence to craft etc everything on your chars :<? Can't trade it from the main one.
And remember - your "point of view" is far from the norm. If we made a poll to ask how many people are multiboxing 4 characters and how many are playing just the one, I'm willing to bet that we'll get more people who play on just the one char. Which sort of means that how *you* play might be the most effective when multiboxing (leaving loot etc behind), but it's not how most people WILL be playing. Doesn't matter either way, as it was just a nod towards how if you spend time picking up loot between packs, Archon will seem stronger, as it gets time to cool off in that duration.
All I claimed, was that his build can gain MORE CDR and thoose more overall DPS and that MM Conflig is not a must to reach high dps. In reality, all you need is a lot of fire or arcane %, elite %, base dmg and CDR and you can deal a lot of dmg with Archon and almost any primary in the game. You can make Arcane Torrent Archon, Disintegrate Archon, HeatWare Archon, MM Archon .. etc. But if you have 60+ % CDR, its Archon that will deal the most of the dmg. Get a DPS meter and you'll notice. And I'm not speaking about against Malthael, Ghom or RG. I'm talking about avg eDPS thrughout a rift. Where you gotta kill 450 units as fast as possible.
Sure, it could gain more CDR. But it'd destroy the purpose of the spec, and it wouldn't make it any stronger (as already mentioned previously). The fact that everything has to be "something-archon" to you is the main issue here, really. You want the Archon (and who doesn't?), but you put too much emphasis on optimising it's uptime (as mentioned about five times), compared to using it as a cooldown and focusing on optimising your play OUTSIDE of archon. Also, the fact that my MM-ignites oneshot those white mobs that I have to kill to get through the rifts (or, in worst case, takes maybe 4 shots for the really big ones) means that going for more archon to do anything but kill elites is futile.
Extremely gear dependent? You can acquire the Helm, Chest, Shoulder, Legs, Boots, Gloves and Weapon in a matter of hours by farming materials. Meanwhile, vyrs and cindercoat and proper magefist can take days/weeks to obtain. Again, you've been disproven. 9/10 of your facts are wrong, misleading or lacking info about the class. Now, go somewhere else to troll or stay away from the Wizard Class Forum if you don't know the class. Fool.
Your last hurrah, and where you make yourself look like a complete moron for calling me a fool. As I already pointed out (this section sort of fills in under the whole "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" one you made, but apparantly organising isn't your strong suit, so what the hey), gear dependency is what you make it. I'm not sure what makes you think Vyrs is good for MM-ignite, as I have effectively been arguing against that as part of trying to optimise Archon, so maybe your brain got a little fried... But either way, as already said, those are the three most important items in the build. Only MIrrorball is the "required" one as you yourself pointed out. Your build needs you to get specific set plans, get CDR on a bunch of items, and dependant on the setup, vyrs. But your entire build is shit if you can't get enough gear to lower your CDR enough. You'll sit outside of archon and do fuck all damage, waiting for the cooldown, or hope you run into a shrine, if you can't get every piece of your gear properly rolled. Meanwhile, all I need is a mirrorball, a pair of extremely common gloves, and if I want to use meteors as my spender, an uncommon chest. Ok then.
So, let us recap considering you seem so intent to tell me off, and that 9/10 of my facts are supposedly wrong:
1: You think a single hotfix = a bajillion different hotfixes. Wrong.
2: You think MM-ignite had it's stacking damage component removed from the extra missiles. Wrong.
3: You accuse me of not understanding basic math, and then go on to completly neglect the fact that if you want one kind of stat, you have to sacrifice another stat - yet assume that your damage output will remain the same. Wrong.
4: You keep accusing me of stating things that I never have. Exhibits A and B:
A: Accusing me of stating Ignite is the best spell wizards have (when what I said was that there was no comparable spam-able spell), and then going on to list arcane spenders that you by default can't keep "spamming".
B: Stating that my comment about not being as gear dependant equals the same as not having any gear.
5: You somehow think that if you have 4 players in a game (and I quote): "the enemies do also have WAY more damage.", when in reality, the only thing that changes between 1, 2, 3 and 4 players are the monsters healthpool, and NOT their damage (granted, for the first month perhaps even two? I don't full recall, Inferno did have scaling dmg per-player, but they did away with that and it never made a return).
So, all in all, if I'd have to take a guess at who the fool is, I believe it'd end up being you. Take your elitist attitude back to your precious hardcore community, and actually do a minimum of research, instead of being an ignorant douche, and we can perhaps have a civil discussion again. Clearly you don't know even half of what you think you know, so perhaps do some reading up till next time.
First off: 85% of your damage? Yea, you clearly have no god damn clue about how this spec works.
Here's the thing:
You are talking about a perma-archon build. Your experience with it doesn't matter fuck all, because it's not what this build is about: Repeat after me -
This build uses Archon as a cooldown to fend off hard elite packs/bosses or speed up clearing. It does NOT rely on archon.
You're also extremely stupid if you really think the only reason MM-conflag was ever worth it was because you could proc of all 3 missiles...But hey, let's hear it - what's the other 4 to 7 hotfixes that made the build null apart from not letting secondary missiles count for procs? Let's hear them, if it isn't a number you just made up in order to sound more credible. (Query: Find me a spam-able spell with 510% weapon damage that leaves a stack-able 165% wep dmg DoT on the target. Even your precious Archon's abilities are 604%, 790% and 779% weapon damage... AKA one attack from right or left clicking only slightly beats out MM, and the only reason Archon starts dealing more damage is because of the +Dmg% bonus after a kill).
So, let's say it again: No one gives a fuck about your perma archon build. You might think it's better, and you have fun using it. That does not make a build that can run T6 rifts in 10 minutes or less "bad", and it sure as hell doesn't require nearly as much gear as yours (in reality, the only thing this build is reliant on is cindercoat, magefists, and mirrorball to start dealing out heavy damage).
The fact that you're doing it with 4 wizards on hardcore doesn't matter fuck all to me. Playing with 4 chars that does exactly the same thing, when mobs only increase their HP by 40% per player doesn't exactly seem like it makes anything "harder" (Fact: If you have 4 times the damage, and only 1.6 time more HP, it gets a whole lot easier. You only die to avoidable dmg nowadays, so when your 4x wiz all move at the same time to avoid shit, it basicly becomes you playing T4, with 4x the loot at T6 drop rates). Besides, you have to tab between every window to loot after each elite pack, which would mean that you'd have archon up 100% of the time because you have to afk for 10-15 seconds in order to pick everything up. Yea, totally a valid solo method.
All that said, don't you think we're aware that fire archon is a decent build? The issue I'm having right now is that you're being a douche, comming in here, assuming that the OP is wrong in what he's written in his build setup, JUST BECAUSE IT ISN'T THE MAXIMUM OUTPUT ACCORDING TO *YOU* - someone who multiboxes, thus not getting what this build is really "good" for.
So, instead of hijacking a thread that has nothing to do with your extremely gear dependant, precious archon build, go ahead and make your own. And derp it up with your four wizards while you're at it. It doesn't really make anyone impressed.
This build is far from the best, it's LACKING a LOT of CoolDown Reduction. No Borns. No Crimson. No CDR on SoJ, No CDR on weapon or even his gloves.
If what he advertised was a "perma-archon"-build, then sure. You'd be right. Considering the main focus on the build is still MM, with Archon as a cooldown to speed stuff up/rip through harder elites, it's not true though. Getting CDR for the sacrifice of Crit dmg (rings), losing vyrs if he wants both crimsons and borns (or his weapon, I guess, to keep vyrs), 10% damage (his weapon) - it's simply too much, and it'd completly gut the spec and make it just another "perma archon"-build. You have to understand that there's a difference, and both are perfectly viable :3.
The only thing he could possibly do with CDR on is his gloves of the ones you mentioned, as it can have int+crit+crit dmg+CDR, but then he'd lose the vit, and that might set him back a torment level defensive wise.
If you're in group, you shouldn't need more toughness to survive. There's four targets for mobs to hit instead of one, and their damage doesn't scale. If you're dying, you're standing in shit.
@Draco_Draco and Hilbs17 thank you for your wonderful posts, both of you answers some question of mine regard item combination, like you Draco i just got my 4th Vyr set (i don't have the ring) and i was really underwhelming by the set, guess it was my mistake thinking that Archon is like Gargantuan, after i got my 4th vyr i came to the conclusion that the set it not worth losing Cindercoat,Magefist the stats you sacrifice for CDR and the talent you lose with the CDR one.
Overall my plan is to go with Draco setup, seems to have big elemental dmg and dmg against elits.Now my question to you Draco, did you test Strongarm+HARRINGTON combo, i mean you only need to sacrifice your Unity and the way i see it you win quite a lot of dmg and you don't lose your Aughild bonus.
I would love to read a response from Op about Draco and Hibs posts, this build fell really good and every improvement regard item combination its a bonus
I've never tried harringtons+Strongarm, no. Usually, I don't even run black hole (not sure if I'm logged out with it - I joined a friends goblin rift last night and took black hole for the pull-back); I run with meteor shower. Having to use black hole for strongarms means giving up either Archon, energy armor, familiar or force weapon, or have no AOE-spender. It also has a *long* cooldown without CDR (better suited for a Vyrs setup).
As for Harringtons, the amount of chests you find during elite/boss fights are eeeh... Not a lot. Clearing trash is a non issue, but overall, I'd rather have my 50% crit dmg and IAS from Witching Hour.
The bracers are by far the worst rolled of the two, Plantoide. Depends if you rely a lot on the bonus.
I have a question to all the people using Vyr's. After getting the full set tonight (decided to spend my Blood shards somewhere else than hunting a wand of woh, and apparantly they're either very effective now or I'm hilariously lucky), I can't help but feel... Underwhelmed by it.
First off, my character page for reference to gear: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Draco-2719/hero/35820468 (never had luck on a crit+critdmg+firedmg neck, so been stuck with this immunity one :().
I'm capable of clearing T6 rifts solo in 10-15 minutes depending on density and difficulty with this setup.
Now, the reason I'm underwhelmed is this:
In order to benefit from Vyrs, you have to use 4 pieces of gear focused on making the set bonus work. Boots and Pants are not overly important, so those two are obvious. The third piece will have to be either gloves or chest - both of these will loose you 20% fire damage.
This means that 50% of the benefit from Vyr's (activating all runes at once, so assuming you use the fire archon, it's 22% extra damage and 20 sec reduction) is already lost. You might gain 22% dmg while in Archon, but you lose out on 20% dmg *at all times*.
This might still be "worth it". After all, it's still -20 sec on Archon. Where I hit a screeching stop was when I realised that the fourth piece would either be a RoRG, removing either 29% elite and 19% fire damage (or basicly, 48% flat damage against anything that matters) or 50% damage reduction. Both of these are absolutely *huge*, and the benefit you gain compared is... 20 Seconds less on Archon's CD.
Some people might say "yea, but that means you can build around more set bonuses", but... Does it really? Consider the spots used:
Gloves/chest - Pants - Boots. That leaves Helm, Belt, Shoulders, Bracers to build up sets.
As you can see, I'm already rocking three set aughilds without a RoRG. And I literally can't think of any other set bonus I could build without hurting myself more than I'd gain -
Cpt crimson is legs+belt (can't, vyrs legs).
Borns is shoulders+chest (can't, cindercoat chest).
Cains is feet/legs/helm/gloves (shares with Vyrs, so can't).
In the end, it'd actually be most beneficial to drop cindercoat, rather than one of the two rings (20% fire dmg lost as opposed to 20%+30% elite dmg).
The final nail in the coffin was the realisation that "shit, cd reduction ain't free".
In order to effectively use Archon, you want max CD reduction, as stated in this guide. However, this obviously has a cost - for starters:
200 paragon points (or 50% crit dmg / 5% crit / 10% IAS).
A passive skill slot (usually one filled by Audacity or Elemental Exposure. Blur and Conflag are both pretty much a given. Personally, so is Glass Cannon).
And on gear:
20% AOE damage on shoulders (OR some defensive stat).
41 Magic find or 23% life in helm gemslot (dependant on preferance).
And this is just for 50%. Want to go further, you lose out on vitality or IAS on gloves, vitality on Source etc.
To add to all of the above, I can obviously get some quite heavy bonuses with just single legendaries in the slots. I have been trying to aquire a pair of Pox Faulds for my leg slot rather than my old cains, and I wear Ice Climbers boots which makes me immune to a ton of CC that'd probably kill you off oftenly on T6.
So my question is: Why is Vyr so appealing to a lot of people? Is it just the general idea that more archon = better? Or am I missing something that makes these extremely heavy losses worth it?
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You clearly came here to start a fight, or you wouldn't start going on a tangent on something completly unrelated. His build doesn't focus on archon at all (it has been an afterthought with the 2.0.5 changes). If someone wanted a archon build, then they'd build TOWARDS an archon build, but that's not what this is about. Being able to transform it into an archon build if you want is all fine and such, but you still don't seem to get the point.
Sooo... Let me get this straight - your 8 nerfs are in reality ONE nerf, and one thing that has never happened? (Fun fact: All 3 missiles STILL stack up the ignite debuff. That's the entire reason this build works well and does a shitton of singletarget damage).
And as mentioned a second ago - mirrorballs extra missiles not counting in proc coefficients was *one* nerf. Not a ton of seperate nerfs (which you even sort-of admit in the second part of that quote: A lot of proc coefficients was cut) - So: one nerf, and one thing that isn't true. Gotcha. Where's the remaining 6?
And Arcane Torrent/Disintegrate are both arcane *spenders*, which cannot be spammed endlessly the same way MM can. Likewise, they do not have a 165% wep dmg dot that stacks up every cast (turning into far more than both the spells you mentioned).
I am well aware of how powerfull archon is, but for you to go ahead and say the spec is "wrong" because it isn't focused on always being in archon is just fucking asine. I think that's what you don't get - I'm well aware a perma archon build is probably going to be stronger, BUT THAT WASN'T THE FOCUS OF THE GUIDE - YOU CAME BARGING IN HERE AND *MADE IT* ABOUT THAT.
I never claimed MM was the best. Please quote where I stated that. I asked you to find me a spam able spell with a comparable strength. I'm also aware that archon's explosion (melee range) and beam/smash can both be used together. And I'd be a fool to claim that anything wiz has can compare with an archon while in it, because of the fact that it's the class' strongest cooldown. I never claimed this spec was stronger. I said that this spec is fully T6 solo viable and less gear dependant.
No. That's where you're wrong, though. That's where this spec differs from your view of what "EVERYONE HAS TO DO TO NOT SUCK". You want Archon up as much as possible. I have said it what, three times? so far. I'll say it again:
This build relies on Magic Missile as your main nuke, and has the option to take Archon as a cooldown to deal with elites that'd otherwise be harder (maybe you don't like dealing with wallers because MM doesn't break through walls outside of kulle-aid). But since you bring in basic algebra, let me set up some math for you that you apparantly do not understand:
In order to get, say, 65% cool down reduction, you will need:
12.5% Helm gem (losing out on either: 23% life-41% magic find).
20% passive slot (losing out on either - 17% dmg reduc, 6% crit, 10-20% dmg from EE, 15% dmg from audacity).
And now, in order to gain 32.5% more, you need:
8% shoulder (losing out on either 400 armor, 100 all ress, or 20% AOE-damage).
8% gloves (losing 7% IAS - which is a big deal for a Magic Missile build, because you rely on stacking up the ignite fast for higher HP mobs).
The remaining 16.5% comes down to if you want to use Vyr's or not, as you could get 10% from Cpt crimsons. Either way, Vyrs is 20% fire damage lost. Borns loses you out on a good weapon, or 20% fire dmg with the chest. You get the idea. There's the rings as alternatives, where you suddenly can't use a Unity+SoJ if you are using set bonuses (which then loses you out on 100% toughness +12-15% elite dmg, vs 20% fire dmg and 30% elite dmg). Oh, and if you get CDR on those, you lose some of the biggest stats you have (crit/critdmg).
Getting CDR on weapon is a no-go aswell, as 10% weapon damage is probably the single biggest increase in the entire game for your damage.
There's also your source, I guess, but then you'd lose out on 750 vit or 15% magic missile damage. Basicly, also a shitton.
My point is: By the end of getting your 65% or so CDR, atleast if you want to use Vyrs, you have lost about half of your output (be it through lost elemental/elite dmg on SoJ, Cinder/Magefists, and other DPS stats sac'd for CDR) or half of your toughness (if unity) - both choises also has minor effects on the other side, of course (23% life gem lost while losing dps, losing elite dmg on unity with RoRG). Sure, you might be doing 1383% for the duration of archon and have 50% uptime on Archon, but you have to realise that when you have lost so many DPS stats, you're not actually doing 1383% damage instead of 510%+165%stacking dot - you're doing about 700-800%, and outside of archon, you'll likewise suffer in terms of output. A hybrid spec is all fine and dandy, but that's not what this was about, and turning everything into an archon hybrid just to have the option is silly.
I'm afraid that I don't quite is as into this game that I play with a ton of addons, so I can't help you there. I would, however, love to see you quote me saying this is "the best spec with the highest dps" anywhere. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, so maybe you should just STFU and actually start reading instead of being a douche? Or is that too hard for you :s?
P.S. - I already explained you the difference between having four geared characters running around doing something vs one. Of course shit is going to die before you blink. That's the entire point of playing in groups. The mobs do not grow stronger at the same rate as the group. They aren't gaining 100% hp per new char joining, and they gain zero damage. You can get away with a shitton of stuff you wouldn't be able to do nearly as easily in a solo game, which is why the whole multiboxing premise doesn't really compare to solo experiences.
I can, however, use ALGEBRA to draw you up a quick calculation -
My MM-Ignites hit for about 10M per, each cast of 3 balls adding a DoT that ticks 4 times over 3 seconds for another 10M total. This DoT is refreshed by each cast.
I do 2x casts a second (long live attack speed).
This means 60M from 6x MM-Ignites, or 60M E-DPS, before the DoT.
The DoT adds 20M damage to the pool per second. 20M 1s, 40M 2s, 60M 3s and so forth. Basic stuff. This means that by the time I have casted six times, I am doing 60M damage per second, along with having a DoT running for 60M damage over 3 seconds (or 20M). So, in order to reach 100M E-DPS, I need to cast 18 times, or attack for nine seconds. Anything after that keeps improving it at a rate of 20M more dmg into the pool per second, untill you let it run out. All the above, I do realise, does not factor in that this has been calculated assuming critical hits. With a 73.5% crit rate (sadly, losing .5% on neck and 1% on gloves) I guess you can go ahead and multiply the above numbers by 0.735 and get the "correct" measurements. The point is, I'm not even sure if 100M e-dps is anything worth mentioning (as I don't use your addons or even is as into this as you), but the ramp up is about 12 seconds to reach that level.
That said, most packs has 500-600M health. So that's under 10 seconds to kill them off if they all get hit by the missiles (so let's say 10 seconds to account for not hitting perfectly etc). Sure, it's not enough to reach that potential. On the other hand, I'm not sitting 50% of the time doing half of that output because Archon is on CD.
You mistake "not gear dependant" with "don't need proper gear". Let me explain you the difference:
If you are wearing Magefists, Cindercoat and Mirrorball as your 3 core items, the: Pants, Helm, Bracers, Shoulders, weapon, boots, neck, and rings are largely irrellevant. You don't need to farm a RoRG for set bonuses (but it helps). You don't need to farm Vyrs set pieces. You could wear blackthornes as long as it had relevant stats, and the 3 items would still carry the build. Heck, as you say yourself, the Mirrorball is really the only thing that is *needed* for the build. I just consider the cindercoat and magefists to be the second and third most important in the spec. Sure, you'll want shoulders that has int and some other stats on them. You'll want a helm with crit and int. You'll be dumb not to get that in any spec, I'm sure we agree. What you don't need, is to hunt for set items, you don't need to hunt for items with CDR, and you don't have a threshold where the spec suddenly "clicks". As you say yourself, you want more than 60% CDR for the spec to work very well. There's no such "threshold" here. That is what I mean by "gear dependant" - you need a shit ton of CDR gear, each on a piece that has to be found/crafted.
I have no interest in either multiboxing, or HC. I find this game quite relaxing in between raids in WoW, and got the main game for free with my annual pass, and bought the expansion with RMAH money. I don't intend to spend more money on it :).That said, for someone who thinks they're knowledgeable about everything, you have really not read up on jack shit. If you were to go ahead and test it for yourself, or even do a quick search on the internet, you would know that the only thing that increases when you have multiple players is the health of the monsters.
What you apparantly do not seem to understand, is that this means you have far less damage going around. Anything that is not specificly AOE-damage is only going to hit one player, who has a fourth of the groups health. Instead of everything, no matter if it is AOE or not, hitting all the players (one person) for however much damage. Considering that all unavoidable damage is largely singletarget, and almost all AOE damage is completly avoidable, that's a pretty fucking big deal. The only AOE-unavoidable I can think of would be Jailer.
But put it this way - you clearly think you're right, and somehow think that your way is the correct way because you are willing to throw money on multiboxing and prefer hardcore. Not much I can do to change your mind then, oh mighty one. I'm afraid that all I can do compared to your skillz of multiboxing in the frightful hardcore enviroment, is research and apply logic rather than jump to conclusions. Perhaps if you'd tried out a mirrorball before going on a rampage, you'd have known that all 3 missiles stack the damage. Or that you take far less damage overall in a 4 person game than a 1 person game, compared to the available health (Fun fact: This is why Blizzard isn't fixing the Unity-trinity of 2x unity, 1x immortal follower. Having that combo essentially makes you as durable as if you were playing in a 2 person team as you take half the damage).
No, I don't box I'm afraid. Sadly, I base my estimation on personal experience, which actually includes caring about the loot that monsters drop (which means picking up everything and salvaging it. I am on +150 aughild helms at this point, with the best one being 650 int, 640 vit, socket and crit - give me one at +700 int/vit or with gold find%, and I'll be happy, but nope. 90 Veileds per). If you just zerg through everything untill you find a legendary and hear a ding from whatever addon it is that warns you guys about that, then I guess it'll be faster. Personally, I'd imagine it would take me 2-3 seconds to tab and pick up loot on each char after every pack. Which is in line with the 10-15 second estimation. So... How exactly do you like, get gems/veileds/essence to craft etc everything on your chars :<? Can't trade it from the main one.
And remember - your "point of view" is far from the norm. If we made a poll to ask how many people are multiboxing 4 characters and how many are playing just the one, I'm willing to bet that we'll get more people who play on just the one char. Which sort of means that how *you* play might be the most effective when multiboxing (leaving loot etc behind), but it's not how most people WILL be playing. Doesn't matter either way, as it was just a nod towards how if you spend time picking up loot between packs, Archon will seem stronger, as it gets time to cool off in that duration.
Sure, it could gain more CDR. But it'd destroy the purpose of the spec, and it wouldn't make it any stronger (as already mentioned previously). The fact that everything has to be "something-archon" to you is the main issue here, really. You want the Archon (and who doesn't?), but you put too much emphasis on optimising it's uptime (as mentioned about five times), compared to using it as a cooldown and focusing on optimising your play OUTSIDE of archon. Also, the fact that my MM-ignites oneshot those white mobs that I have to kill to get through the rifts (or, in worst case, takes maybe 4 shots for the really big ones) means that going for more archon to do anything but kill elites is futile.
Your last hurrah, and where you make yourself look like a complete moron for calling me a fool. As I already pointed out (this section sort of fills in under the whole "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" one you made, but apparantly organising isn't your strong suit, so what the hey), gear dependency is what you make it. I'm not sure what makes you think Vyrs is good for MM-ignite, as I have effectively been arguing against that as part of trying to optimise Archon, so maybe your brain got a little fried... But either way, as already said, those are the three most important items in the build. Only MIrrorball is the "required" one as you yourself pointed out. Your build needs you to get specific set plans, get CDR on a bunch of items, and dependant on the setup, vyrs. But your entire build is shit if you can't get enough gear to lower your CDR enough. You'll sit outside of archon and do fuck all damage, waiting for the cooldown, or hope you run into a shrine, if you can't get every piece of your gear properly rolled. Meanwhile, all I need is a mirrorball, a pair of extremely common gloves, and if I want to use meteors as my spender, an uncommon chest. Ok then.
So, let us recap considering you seem so intent to tell me off, and that 9/10 of my facts are supposedly wrong:
1: You think a single hotfix = a bajillion different hotfixes. Wrong.
2: You think MM-ignite had it's stacking damage component removed from the extra missiles. Wrong.
3: You accuse me of not understanding basic math, and then go on to completly neglect the fact that if you want one kind of stat, you have to sacrifice another stat - yet assume that your damage output will remain the same. Wrong.
4: You keep accusing me of stating things that I never have. Exhibits A and B:
A: Accusing me of stating Ignite is the best spell wizards have (when what I said was that there was no comparable spam-able spell), and then going on to list arcane spenders that you by default can't keep "spamming".
B: Stating that my comment about not being as gear dependant equals the same as not having any gear.
5: You somehow think that if you have 4 players in a game (and I quote): "the enemies do also have WAY more damage.", when in reality, the only thing that changes between 1, 2, 3 and 4 players are the monsters healthpool, and NOT their damage (granted, for the first month perhaps even two? I don't full recall, Inferno did have scaling dmg per-player, but they did away with that and it never made a return).
So, all in all, if I'd have to take a guess at who the fool is, I believe it'd end up being you. Take your elitist attitude back to your precious hardcore community, and actually do a minimum of research, instead of being an ignorant douche, and we can perhaps have a civil discussion again. Clearly you don't know even half of what you think you know, so perhaps do some reading up till next time.
/served.
Here's the thing:
You are talking about a perma-archon build. Your experience with it doesn't matter fuck all, because it's not what this build is about: Repeat after me -
This build uses Archon as a cooldown to fend off hard elite packs/bosses or speed up clearing. It does NOT rely on archon.
You're also extremely stupid if you really think the only reason MM-conflag was ever worth it was because you could proc of all 3 missiles...But hey, let's hear it - what's the other 4 to 7 hotfixes that made the build null apart from not letting secondary missiles count for procs? Let's hear them, if it isn't a number you just made up in order to sound more credible. (Query: Find me a spam-able spell with 510% weapon damage that leaves a stack-able 165% wep dmg DoT on the target. Even your precious Archon's abilities are 604%, 790% and 779% weapon damage... AKA one attack from right or left clicking only slightly beats out MM, and the only reason Archon starts dealing more damage is because of the +Dmg% bonus after a kill).
So, let's say it again: No one gives a fuck about your perma archon build. You might think it's better, and you have fun using it. That does not make a build that can run T6 rifts in 10 minutes or less "bad", and it sure as hell doesn't require nearly as much gear as yours (in reality, the only thing this build is reliant on is cindercoat, magefists, and mirrorball to start dealing out heavy damage).
The fact that you're doing it with 4 wizards on hardcore doesn't matter fuck all to me. Playing with 4 chars that does exactly the same thing, when mobs only increase their HP by 40% per player doesn't exactly seem like it makes anything "harder" (Fact: If you have 4 times the damage, and only 1.6 time more HP, it gets a whole lot easier. You only die to avoidable dmg nowadays, so when your 4x wiz all move at the same time to avoid shit, it basicly becomes you playing T4, with 4x the loot at T6 drop rates). Besides, you have to tab between every window to loot after each elite pack, which would mean that you'd have archon up 100% of the time because you have to afk for 10-15 seconds in order to pick everything up. Yea, totally a valid solo method.
All that said, don't you think we're aware that fire archon is a decent build? The issue I'm having right now is that you're being a douche, comming in here, assuming that the OP is wrong in what he's written in his build setup, JUST BECAUSE IT ISN'T THE MAXIMUM OUTPUT ACCORDING TO *YOU* - someone who multiboxes, thus not getting what this build is really "good" for.
So, instead of hijacking a thread that has nothing to do with your extremely gear dependant, precious archon build, go ahead and make your own. And derp it up with your four wizards while you're at it. It doesn't really make anyone impressed.
The only thing he could possibly do with CDR on is his gloves of the ones you mentioned, as it can have int+crit+crit dmg+CDR, but then he'd lose the vit, and that might set him back a torment level defensive wise.
As for Harringtons, the amount of chests you find during elite/boss fights are eeeh... Not a lot. Clearing trash is a non issue, but overall, I'd rather have my 50% crit dmg and IAS from Witching Hour.
I have a question to all the people using Vyr's. After getting the full set tonight (decided to spend my Blood shards somewhere else than hunting a wand of woh, and apparantly they're either very effective now or I'm hilariously lucky), I can't help but feel... Underwhelmed by it.
First off, my character page for reference to gear:
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Draco-2719/hero/35820468 (never had luck on a crit+critdmg+firedmg neck, so been stuck with this immunity one :().
I'm capable of clearing T6 rifts solo in 10-15 minutes depending on density and difficulty with this setup.
Now, the reason I'm underwhelmed is this:
In order to benefit from Vyrs, you have to use 4 pieces of gear focused on making the set bonus work. Boots and Pants are not overly important, so those two are obvious. The third piece will have to be either gloves or chest - both of these will loose you 20% fire damage.
This means that 50% of the benefit from Vyr's (activating all runes at once, so assuming you use the fire archon, it's 22% extra damage and 20 sec reduction) is already lost. You might gain 22% dmg while in Archon, but you lose out on 20% dmg *at all times*.
This might still be "worth it". After all, it's still -20 sec on Archon. Where I hit a screeching stop was when I realised that the fourth piece would either be a RoRG, removing either 29% elite and 19% fire damage (or basicly, 48% flat damage against anything that matters) or 50% damage reduction. Both of these are absolutely *huge*, and the benefit you gain compared is... 20 Seconds less on Archon's CD.
Some people might say "yea, but that means you can build around more set bonuses", but... Does it really? Consider the spots used:
Gloves/chest - Pants - Boots. That leaves Helm, Belt, Shoulders, Bracers to build up sets.
As you can see, I'm already rocking three set aughilds without a RoRG. And I literally can't think of any other set bonus I could build without hurting myself more than I'd gain -
Cpt crimson is legs+belt (can't, vyrs legs).
Borns is shoulders+chest (can't, cindercoat chest).
Cains is feet/legs/helm/gloves (shares with Vyrs, so can't).
In the end, it'd actually be most beneficial to drop cindercoat, rather than one of the two rings (20% fire dmg lost as opposed to 20%+30% elite dmg).
The final nail in the coffin was the realisation that "shit, cd reduction ain't free".
In order to effectively use Archon, you want max CD reduction, as stated in this guide. However, this obviously has a cost - for starters:
200 paragon points (or 50% crit dmg / 5% crit / 10% IAS).
A passive skill slot (usually one filled by Audacity or Elemental Exposure. Blur and Conflag are both pretty much a given. Personally, so is Glass Cannon).
And on gear:
20% AOE damage on shoulders (OR some defensive stat).
41 Magic find or 23% life in helm gemslot (dependant on preferance).
And this is just for 50%. Want to go further, you lose out on vitality or IAS on gloves, vitality on Source etc.
To add to all of the above, I can obviously get some quite heavy bonuses with just single legendaries in the slots. I have been trying to aquire a pair of Pox Faulds for my leg slot rather than my old cains, and I wear Ice Climbers boots which makes me immune to a ton of CC that'd probably kill you off oftenly on T6.
So my question is: Why is Vyr so appealing to a lot of people? Is it just the general idea that more archon = better? Or am I missing something that makes these extremely heavy losses worth it?