My point was that the number of difficulties does not have to effect the loot tables. You can use monster power alone for all that. Since the only thing that matters is monster level.
Maka and Cardinal were talking about item progression being thrown out of whack. I simply pointed out a way that removed difficulties from the equation. Well at the very least minimizing their impact on item progression.
I mean with even 1 difficulty, monster power can scale the ilvl from Y to Z. If you add any difficulties beyond one then you can just use a multiplier for each difficulty.
Well, MY point (:P) was this: if you have a new difficulty that has no new items, nobody will play it consistently (some will play it for the challenge, but will soon return to the 'farmable' difficulty, because they can earn every item there anyway); if you have a new difficulty with the best items, everyone will want to play it (because every single player of this game wants to eventually have the best items), therefore it will feel (and be) mandatory, the same way Inferno feels (and is) mandatory, because it drops the best items.
That's all I was saying.
I've read every post in this thread and not a single one suggests that a higher difficulty would not have increased loot.
Anyone that thinks that well, let's just assume that nobody would think it.. because it should go without saying. So much so that I figured your post wasn't a captain obvious post and you were concerned how item progression could work.
It doesn't change a thing if you use difficulties, monster power, or how many times you've clicked your mouse with your toes in order to determine item drops. It can, should and shall always be scaled with the most difficult and demanding providing the best loot possible.
Ok, one of us isn't communicating correctly. Monster Power DOES NOT affect monster level, and therefore DOES NOT affect item level or item quality. The only exception to this is when switching monster power on or off on Inferno, and only in act 1/2. The ONLY thing that affects monster level, and therefore item level and item quality, pre-Inferno is your location and your difficulty.
So, are you suggesting that they remove the difficulty settings altogether and just have everything scaled through Monster Power?
You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
That's exactly what I implied in that single sentence. I apologize I'm not a gifted writer or good at breaking things down without feeling like I'm demeaning people. I tend to opt for efficiency/being concise and hope people can read between the lines. As I do.
My point was that there is no difference in terms of item quality between MP1 and MP10 since increasing MP does not increase monster level, it only increases monster stats directly. There is a difference between MP0 and MP1, but only on act 1/2 Inferno. Nowhere else does MP have an effect on the quality of the items that drop, only the quantity.
You are right that bosses in D2 had different drop 'tables' based on mlvl and ilvl. But it was still different for each boss based on what difficulty you are in. So, yes, difficulty does have an impact on the quality of drops, indirectly, since it increases monster levels.
But you are completely right in the sense that monster level is what determines the quality of items.
My point was that the number of difficulties does not have to effect the loot tables. You can use monster power alone for all that. Since the only thing that matters is monster level.
Maka and Cardinal were talking about item progression being thrown out of whack. I simply pointed out a way that removed difficulties from the equation. Well at the very least minimizing their impact on item progression.
I mean with even 1 difficulty, monster power can scale the ilvl from Y to Z. If you add any difficulties beyond one then you can just use a multiplier for each difficulty.
Not sure I follow you. As I understand it, in D3, the stats of an item are dependent on the level of the monster that drops it, which is determined by their location in the game and difficulty mode, same as D2. In Inferno, the monster level is determined solely by which act you are in, if you are in MP0, and 63 across the board in MP1 or higher. MP has no impact on the monster level or quality of items, only the frequency at which items drop (by adjusting MF%)
In diablo 2 the difficulty did effect the treasure class and ilvl but it was still mob specific. For example Diablo, Nithalak and Baal were higher than any other mobs in the game, pindle/frozenstein were the next highest. They dropped different ilvls and higher potential treasure class than anything else.
Btw in d2 the difficulty didn't really switch it from 1-25 to 26-50 or anything in terms of tc. It was more like 1-25 to 1-50. You could still get short bows in act 5 hell, they were just as common as getting a ward bow.
In D3 Act 1 drops up to 62? But if you put it on monster power 1 it makes everything drop up to 63.
Bottom line; Mob/monster level determines the drops. If monster power increases mlvl then it increases ilvl too. Subtracting or adding difficulties doesn't have to have any effect on ilvl. Since monster power does the same thing better.
p.s. I do realize that means you wouldn't be able to do MP 10 on a lvl 1 char but that is not necessary for a good experience.
The thing about Diablo's difficulties are the item drops. A system like that will completely throw item progression out of whack.
I had this thought when discussing it in my thread, too. The fact that in Inferno, you find the best items, but adding a fifth difficulty would mean better items should drop.
Currently, items of level 58-63 drop in Inferno. I was thinking...if Torment were added AFTER Inferno, alongside the addition of the expansion (which would be a good place to add it in), you could have items level 58-65 drop in Inferno, and Torment could drop items level 66-73.
I mean, that seems the simplest solution...just in terms of item level.
I think you both are forgetting in diablo2 things were based on treasure class (think ilvl) and it was dependent on the mob/area, not act. You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
Except that's not what the game was about? There are quite a few people that spent more time in the last difficulty than hundreds of people spent in all 4 difficulties combined.
It just would have been nice if they made each difficulty a little bit different. Maybe in normal we fight Zoltun Kulle. In nightmare we fight his father. In hell we fight his grandfather. In inferno we fight the first of his bloodline. I don't know. Something like that.
I found it extremely boring fighting the same people with the same story for each difficulty.
I agree if you're playing the game for story alone, I can see that as being an ideal situation. However, as far as I go, Blizzard would be wasting resources doing such a thing.
I don't care much for the story progression, it's interesting once and that's it. It's not even a selling point to me and most of the people I know that play the game. I played WoW for quite some time and I didn't give a crap about the backstory of the bosses. I only cared about gameplay and engaging/difficult encounters. (I didn't care about loot either unless it was required for an encounter)
In Diablo a game centered around loot and farming, there isn't really any room for lore as a focal point.
I always said Blizzard made out in this game. They only had to make 1/4 of the game. Because we play that 1/4 of the game four times over. All they had to do was bump up the damage and HP of the mobs and called it a full game.
If they made a 5th difficulty then in reality Blizzard just turned their 1/4 of the game to 1/5.
Really crappy way to make a game. Lazy too.
Except that's not what the game was about? There are quite a few people that spent more time in the last difficulty than hundreds of people spent in all 4 difficulties combined.
My point is for every 10 people you show me that stop playing once they complete the game once, twice or even 4 times. I can show you somebody that has spent more time in the last difficulty than those 10 have combined hours played multiple times over.
As for the OP, I'm with the Torment = Nightmare+ hell combined camp. I think monster power works perfectly for what inferno was designed to accomplish and because of that there is no need for more difficulties.
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I've read every post in this thread and not a single one suggests that a higher difficulty would not have increased loot.
Anyone that thinks that well, let's just assume that nobody would think it.. because it should go without saying. So much so that I figured your post wasn't a captain obvious post and you were concerned how item progression could work.
It doesn't change a thing if you use difficulties, monster power, or how many times you've clicked your mouse with your toes in order to determine item drops. It can, should and shall always be scaled with the most difficult and demanding providing the best loot possible.
Otherwise it doesn't fit Blizzards vision.
That's exactly what I implied in that single sentence. I apologize I'm not a gifted writer or good at breaking things down without feeling like I'm demeaning people. I tend to opt for efficiency/being concise and hope people can read between the lines. As I do.
My point was that the number of difficulties does not have to effect the loot tables. You can use monster power alone for all that. Since the only thing that matters is monster level.
Maka and Cardinal were talking about item progression being thrown out of whack. I simply pointed out a way that removed difficulties from the equation. Well at the very least minimizing their impact on item progression.
I mean with even 1 difficulty, monster power can scale the ilvl from Y to Z. If you add any difficulties beyond one then you can just use a multiplier for each difficulty.
In diablo 2 the difficulty did effect the treasure class and ilvl but it was still mob specific. For example Diablo, Nithalak and Baal were higher than any other mobs in the game, pindle/frozenstein were the next highest. They dropped different ilvls and higher potential treasure class than anything else.
Btw in d2 the difficulty didn't really switch it from 1-25 to 26-50 or anything in terms of tc. It was more like 1-25 to 1-50. You could still get short bows in act 5 hell, they were just as common as getting a ward bow.
In D3 Act 1 drops up to 62? But if you put it on monster power 1 it makes everything drop up to 63.
Bottom line; Mob/monster level determines the drops. If monster power increases mlvl then it increases ilvl too. Subtracting or adding difficulties doesn't have to have any effect on ilvl. Since monster power does the same thing better.
p.s. I do realize that means you wouldn't be able to do MP 10 on a lvl 1 char but that is not necessary for a good experience.
I think you both are forgetting in diablo2 things were based on treasure class (think ilvl) and it was dependent on the mob/area, not act. You don't need a difficulty to dictate potential item drops, besides monster power already shows that.
I agree if you're playing the game for story alone, I can see that as being an ideal situation. However, as far as I go, Blizzard would be wasting resources doing such a thing.
I don't care much for the story progression, it's interesting once and that's it. It's not even a selling point to me and most of the people I know that play the game. I played WoW for quite some time and I didn't give a crap about the backstory of the bosses. I only cared about gameplay and engaging/difficult encounters. (I didn't care about loot either unless it was required for an encounter)
In Diablo a game centered around loot and farming, there isn't really any room for lore as a focal point.
Except that's not what the game was about? There are quite a few people that spent more time in the last difficulty than hundreds of people spent in all 4 difficulties combined.
My point is for every 10 people you show me that stop playing once they complete the game once, twice or even 4 times. I can show you somebody that has spent more time in the last difficulty than those 10 have combined hours played multiple times over.
As for the OP, I'm with the Torment = Nightmare+ hell combined camp. I think monster power works perfectly for what inferno was designed to accomplish and because of that there is no need for more difficulties.