I've found this data that corroborates your conclusion of a additive system for NON-weapon bonuses and also confirmed that frenzy shrine works as you predicted
For me to get this number right using my multiplicative calculator I had to add the frenzy effect to my ring's effect and then multiply by my weapon's
So it is additive for non-weapon percentages and then multiplies by your weapon's percentage it seems
I think your assumption about truncating weapon speeds is incorrect.
I was running some tests in-game just now to determine if the dual wield bonus was multiplicative or additive with other non-weapon IAS and got these numbers:
As you can see, the bonuses are clearly not multiplicative. The additive results match assuming rounding rather than truncation except for the 1.50 speed test case.
I'm assuming that your truncation assumption was based on similar values like 1.30 * 1.15 = 1.495 displaying as 1.49 rather than 1.50. I think there is a better explanation of these results, though. Attacks per second are stored internally as a floating point number and neither 1.935 nor 1.495 (or any decimal ending in 5) is exactly representable as a binary float. I believe in all case the actual representation is more like 1.93499999 and 1.4949999 which explains why those specific cases seem to be truncated when they are actually just being rounded.
Oh sick, great correction. I actually have come across this computer issue before but it didn't occur to me in this case.
I'll add an annotation to the video!
Really glad I read this today, thanks so much =]
EDIT: Please feel free to check the annotation I just added to make sure that it is accurate.
Thanks again
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
Again, this assumes only raw dps, and doesn't take into account other effects.
But other effects are very important to the point that it makes your number there unusable.
When dual wielding you can actually remove a higher DPS weapon for a lower DPS weapon and have your net DPS go up because of stats/speed difference/speed transfer onto better weapon/critical hit chance.
All the video was trying to make sure people don't assume second weapons are additive which a lot of people do.
Alright after testing I've verified that you are correct and it's 15%.
I made the mistake of assuming they would round rather than truncate.
Really my fault and I do appreciate you calling me on it asap.
As for the rest of your post, I'd call the majority of it extensions rather than corrections.
I'll just make my own comments on what you wrote because I'm interested in keeping the conversation going.
Additionally, because it is modifying both weapon speeds, and because you are attacking with each weapon separately, the final overall speed can be simply the average attack speed.
The final overall speed can be an average, but it isn't. In the game it shows each weapon speed based on what will swing next.
Hope I understood you properly.
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
If you're going to go so far as to find these numbers, and I applaud you for doing so, you need to also take it a step further and mention that higher attack speed and lower DPS might be more valuable if you are facing a large number of weak units as opposed to a few strong units (like in PvP). This is of course due to the wasted damage you have when you kill a unit. Anyone who's played an RPG and scoffed at getting an enemy down to <1% life and having to give it another full hit should be able to relate to this.
Additionally, because it is modifying both weapon speeds, and because you are attacking with each weapon separately, the final overall speed can be simply the average attack speed.
As for the dps, it's the same thing in that you are averaging the damage because you are alternating between the two. If you have 2 weapons of exactly equal dps and stats, you can expect that 15% increase in dps. Any difference between them and you get less. With a significant difference in dps, you lose dps due to the wasted time swinging the other weapon.
As an example:
Assuming two 1.0 speed weapons with 10-10 range, you will expect to see 1.15 as the speed for both weapons and your dps should go from 10 to 11.5 as a result.
When you drop to one weapon with 7-8 range and same speed, you get 10+8 = average of 9 * 1.15 = 10.35 dps.
The breakpoint for when dual wielding will result in a net benefit is when the average dps of your weapons will be at least more than [better weapon dps] / 1.3. With the example value of 10, it's approximately 7.7 dps; anything higher will be a net increase, anything less is a net decrease.
Again, this assumes only raw dps, and doesn't take into account other effects.
Just talking about the IAS bonus for now.. so it truncates the decimals rather than rounds?
I mean if I have a 1.38 attack speed weapon then it only goes up to 1.58 even though 1.38*1.15 = 1.5875
Starting a new video series today where I go beneath the surface of the systems being used in Diablo 3 and try to answer questions people have/will have about the less obvious mechanics in the game.
My goal with each video will be to get to questions that will actually allow for us to make better decisions when we play the game. You can see an example of a very "actionable" question in the third question of this episode.
The three questions I'll be answering today are:
1. How much does dual wielding increase attack speed?
2. Is your attack speed when dual wielding an average of each (weapon's) speed or independent?
3. Is it always better to be using two weapons?
Hope you guys enjoy and learn something from this.
I love making this style of video because I learn a lot myself, please ask questions you have and if the answer is something I think people want to know I'll include it in one of the videos!
=]
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For me to get this number right using my multiplicative calculator I had to add the frenzy effect to my ring's effect and then multiply by my weapon's
So it is additive for non-weapon percentages and then multiplies by your weapon's percentage it seems
... BTW I sent you a PM
Oh sick, great correction. I actually have come across this computer issue before but it didn't occur to me in this case.
I'll add an annotation to the video!
Really glad I read this today, thanks so much =]
EDIT: Please feel free to check the annotation I just added to make sure that it is accurate.
Thanks again
But other effects are very important to the point that it makes your number there unusable.
When dual wielding you can actually remove a higher DPS weapon for a lower DPS weapon and have your net DPS go up because of stats/speed difference/speed transfer onto better weapon/critical hit chance.
All the video was trying to make sure people don't assume second weapons are additive which a lot of people do.
Thanks for posting tho!
Great question! I'll look into it =]
Working now correct?
I made the mistake of assuming they would round rather than truncate.
Really my fault and I do appreciate you calling me on it asap.
As for the rest of your post, I'd call the majority of it extensions rather than corrections.
I'll just make my own comments on what you wrote because I'm interested in keeping the conversation going.
The final overall speed can be an average, but it isn't. In the game it shows each weapon speed based on what will swing next.
Hope I understood you properly.
If you're going to go so far as to find these numbers, and I applaud you for doing so, you need to also take it a step further and mention that higher attack speed and lower DPS might be more valuable if you are facing a large number of weak units as opposed to a few strong units (like in PvP). This is of course due to the wasted damage you have when you kill a unit. Anyone who's played an RPG and scoffed at getting an enemy down to <1% life and having to give it another full hit should be able to relate to this.
Just talking about the IAS bonus for now.. so it truncates the decimals rather than rounds?
I mean if I have a 1.38 attack speed weapon then it only goes up to 1.58 even though 1.38*1.15 = 1.5875
I'll keep testing
Starting a new video series today where I go beneath the surface of the systems being used in Diablo 3 and try to answer questions people have/will have about the less obvious mechanics in the game.
My goal with each video will be to get to questions that will actually allow for us to make better decisions when we play the game. You can see an example of a very "actionable" question in the third question of this episode.
The three questions I'll be answering today are:
1. How much does dual wielding increase attack speed?
2. Is your attack speed when dual wielding an average of each (weapon's) speed or independent?
3. Is it always better to be using two weapons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vke_bm42cNI
Hope you guys enjoy and learn something from this.
I love making this style of video because I learn a lot myself, please ask questions you have and if the answer is something I think people want to know I'll include it in one of the videos!
=]