The problem is that some have no defensive nature, pose threat and wish harm to sanctuary. The conflict between Heaven and Hell are bilateral - noone knows who started it and both sides have no plans of stop the war, they both are destined to fight for all eternity.
You can make big point by posting the site were angels are acknowledge as the good guys of the story.
If the intentions of angels and demons were absolutely clear, then this thread wouldn't even exist.
This thread only exist because the sin war trilogy is unpopular even among the diablo fans. And you are right, their intention is not absolutly clear - thats why is irrelevant to discuss it, unless you are discussing it in a speculative scenarium wich is not this thread case. The question is "CAN Heaven be a enemy in D3?", it's not speculation, it's a possibility, and yes it's damn possible.
@Elight: And i'm pretty tired of discussing this ... I've used all my arguments back there and i will not repeat then. I'm not talking about what is "good" and "evil". I never ever mentioned it in my posts.
The Heaven you are talking about are simply not pictured in any recent/relevant lore canon. So i have no reason of why Heaven should be a positive energy plane. It is putted several time that Heaven is bounded to "order" - not to "good" or a positive plane of pure delight and joy. I have already give the explantion of why Heaven is a potential threat in my preview posts, read then or (even better) read the sin war trilogy.
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
It's not that simple.
We have almost none idea of how Heaven is and how angels think. Any though about those stuff is merely baseless speculation.
What in have in terms of fact is D1 and D2 storyline, D3 recent lore and the Sin War trilogy. At D1 and D2 we have almost no contact with Heavens because Tyreal is a rebel angel.And in the Sin War trilogy the picture of Heaven is that they are potential enemies of Sanctuary just like Hell is. This is putted VERY clear in the damn books, if you didn't read then and don't want to believe what people read there - you need a bit more of lore in your brain.
And I'm pretty sure that is not me and Xerj who are basing our arguments in speculation of what we want or not in D3's plot. You are the one doing it because you simply want believe that Heaven are the good guys without even the minimun lore basement.
And about that, what would really happen to The Prime Evils now when they have no containers or bodies on earth? Can they return to Hell even if they are exiled? They can't just enter a body right? That would be so unfair Wouldn't they need someone to summon them? Perhaps a human... perhaps someone that can be fooled or corrupted, like Marius... someone with knowledge... perhaps Leah?
My bet is that the prime evils are caught in the Abyss and will return when they regain strength.
It turned out to be a pretty long post. But this is purely opinions, almost no fact. So please don't tell me to refer to books now
Hehehehe... relax
We all have our own personal speculations about D3's plot. Imo in the classic D3 our main enemy will be Azmodan and Belial. Maybe the last act is in hell at the middle of the civil war and we find two different kinds of demon army, so we gotta fight both to finish the game.
After that, Hell will suffer a terrible loss because all the seven Great Evils are missing and then the expancion will be our fight against Imperius and his angels trying to finish Sanctuary as hell is no longer a problem because of the lack of leadership.
Then we will have a second expancion that for some reason, the Prime Evils came back, and epically we gotta defeat our old and greatest enemies.
This is 100% speculation lol But it's how i feel
@emilemil1: i guess you understod pretty what i tryed to say in our discussion back there, based at how your opnion changed along the discussion. The only big difference in my and Xerj opnion and yours is the final plot that Heaven will have in the next game.
Obviously you feel that kill angels is a very weird and hope that someway, somehow, Heaven helps us and we leave in peace with then in the end. Actually I agree with you, but for totaly different reasons.
It's pretty sure that the demons is our prime enemies in the story, however why is that? It's because Hell are overcoming Heaven, breaking the balance, thats why we may allie with heaven to restore the balance. However, if the oposite happened, heaven totally overcoming hell, i'm pretty sure that we gotta fight heaven, maybe alling ourselfs with some demons, maybe not.
The main point of the topic is: Can Heaven be our enemy? My answer is and always will be yes. Blizz have suddenly released a huge amount of lore canon to us, and this lore canon put Heaven as a potential threat, just like Hell. I see no reason of why introduce the fanatical Archangel Imperius that want to crush sanctuary if he ended up not been our enemy. I don't see why promote the Necromancers as the only humans that knows the thruth about Heaven and Hell if they are wrong, if Heaven must not be fought if they break the balance. We will fight Heaven? Only Blizz knows. But I think thats it's very likely in the original game or in a EP.
"That has nothing to do with anything... To make this so supersimplified I can: Can any angel create a worldstone? If the answer is yes, then we have a possibility. You know what I meant..."
We simpl?y don't know. Problably not because it was created by the Top Demon and the Top Angel at the same time.
Still, even if the Council and the angels can creat something like a WS, we have no clue if they want to do that. Actually, the only clue we have is that they don't to do that, they simply want to destroy all humans.
"War and violence is 2 different things. Atleast I don't count every act of violence to be war. If they chase down and punish 2 angels, that wouldn't make a war. It would have to be alot of more angels for them to have a civil war. And think about it. Both Tyrael and Inarius commited their "crimes" because of a war."
The problem is that theres allways more people to be chased. In the end it's something even worse then a war, it's just a slaugther. And Tyrael and Inarius made "crimes" against the war and were punished. This cleary shows the military nature of Heavens in Diablo.
"When I say "they create a worldstone" I mean it like "angels create a worldstone", not the Council as a group. They are obviously no different from other angels. But a second worldstone might be a possibility. But isn't there a possibility that the worldstone is directly connected with the world. They created the world rogether with the worldstone, and alot of things have changed since it was destroyed. Perhaps its energies are fading and Sanctuary is slowly beeing destroyed? And if you want to go even more crazy; Could it be the powers of Inarius and Lilith inside of all humans that are holding Sanctuary together?"
You said Heavens had created the WD. Inarius created it when his no longer follows heaven's rules. Also he created it together with Lilith, each means the WS may need a demonic power to be created. And again it doesn't matter that much if they can or not creat a WS. We have no lore cannon that shows us any intention of the Council to do such thing.
"It is not the fact that the humans are following what is truly good, there is nothing that truly can be good. But the humans follow what they think is the good side, based upon our knowledge. And that would be the most reasonable thing to do. It is like having 2 equally evil murderers. We could prefer either one of them, but one of the murderers (Heaven, as Tyrael) helped us, while the other murderer (Hell, as The Prime Evils) kept harming us. They are deep down equally bad, but which side would the humans choose? They would choose what seem right to them, that is the best that they can do. I'm not saying that heaven does something good, but Tyraels actions and the actions of The Prime Evils have already made most humans decide on Heaven to be the side they would support. And the way the humans had lived also contributed to them choosing the side that appears to act more like them, and that seem to have ethics that fits better with the humans. So to summarise it: Heaven is to the humans, good. If they are more like the humans than demons, that is up to Blizzard to tell us. But atm the acts that the humans have seen pictures Heaven as good, and Hell as bad."
Try to put all humam opnion in the same box is difficult. There alot of humans that follow hell, many do not believe in nether, some follow the what they think are the Heavens, etc... As I said people would be splitted apart and your character may follow or the neutral path or the path of heavens (of course you will not follow hell). The best they can do is put your character neutral because the Sin War shows us a disturbing picture of what Heaven really is and it would suck very much to follow the lead of something you know are not what they say they are.
About the thread: "Fightning both hell and heaven".
Yes thats is totaly possible to happen because both are a potential threat against your character's world.
"Then it is possible that they will repeat the action with the worldstone?"
Again, they cannot repeat a action they never did. The WS creation have nothing to do with the Council.
"There we have something noone mentioned before, that Trag'Oul stated it. But that could mean that if no side wins, Sanctuary can survive, because Heaven and Hell can't waste too much time on Sanctuary. I suppose that the only reason that it was invaded by demons in D1 and D2 was because The Prime Evils were there. Now, without the Worldstone, it would take much less effort to invade it, and it is a higher priority too."
Yes much less effort. And that means that now the possibility of have Heavens as our enemies is greater because Sanctuary can be now be transformed in Hell's outpost and theres a insane military high influential angel wanting us all dead.
And thats wht the thread is about, the possibility of have Heavens as a enemy.
"But think of the world their want to create. Order, a world without any problems, the perfect world for angels. Chaos, a world of unending torment, slavery and war. Chaos and war is very much connected. The demons likes to kill, that makes them a bit more savage than angels, but both sides are solders. But if Heaven could choose, would Heaven want a world with war? I'm sure Hell would, war is pretty chaotic. But with war, a world wouldn't be in order. And ofc they are not victims, I have never said that. They want to kill every demon just as much as demons wants to kill every angel. Angels are however not into war if it isn't neccessary, which it is in this case. You might say that it is my opinion that they doesn't want war if it isn't neccessary, but that is what I believe. But unfortunately, alot of things are neccessary in the world of angels, just to maintain order."
Order is far from a world without problens. And order is connected to war just like chaos is. Because to maintain a total perfect order violent actions is needed because people will always disagree about something (even both been right) and this conflicts leads to confusion, so to prevent that confusion the perfect order must eliminate one of the opnions with brute force. Thats execly what the Council do with "rebel" angels like Tyriel and Inarius, and both had initially a good intent. Actually war is connect to any absolute ideal, no matter what the ideal is.
However I agree heaven is much less savage then Hell, for sure. However I still see Heaven as a potential enemy, a lesser enemy, but a enemy.
"Now you are getting me wrong. I know that it was Inarius and Lilith that created the worldstone. And that does indeed prove that Heaven and Hell are a threat for them. They are traitors lol. And I know that Inaruis made it drain the power of the Nephalem so Lilith couldn't use their powers to build a personal super army. And I'd say that Heavens means justify their ends, just as Hells means justify their ends, from their point of view. You have to see everything from their point of view. Ofc it unevitably means that the humans can't remain as we are, because it would screw up the order, but it would suit Hell great, if they manage to enslave us. But the thing is, if Inarius and Lilith could createe a worldstone, why wouldn't the other archangels/demons be able to do the same thing? Or are they "tired" of having us there? It isn't exacly making their war any different to have a neutral Sanctuary there."
I get you wrong ? I just though you had said that the Council have created the Ws once, why they wouldn't do that another time...O.o
And actually we don't know what it takes to creat a world stone. It's certain that Inarius and Lilith are creatures of significant high power. Inarius was problably the most powerfull angel, but i'm not certain about Lilith. We just don't know if creat a second worldstone is possible.
"This is absolutely correct. But in your example we had only 2 parts, which creates the perfect balance. But in Diablo we have 3 parts, and the humans would probably choose a side that has reasons to fight that they support more than the others. But if both the police and the terrorist turns towards you and say that they don't want you in their world, they want it alone, then we have a problem. Unfortunately this is the case of Sanctuary. A place like Sanctuary can't exist in any of their worlds. But that doesn't stop us from liking Heaven more than Hell, if you pretend that the "you will die anyway" thing doesn't exist. This pretty much proves that Heaven is to us good, and Hell is evil, from our ethical point of view. But we have only seen the ways of demons, we have indeed never seen how angels are, so it is possible that we could like Hell more than Heaven if some events had been different."
The third part, the humans, will problably be divided between those two sides, like the Temple and the Cathedral. Some will seek Heavens for salvation, other will seek hell for power, but both sides don't knows what the fuck they are doing. Only a very small group of humans will have the insight to see that both sides don't want to help then, just use then as means to take a advantage against the other side. Of course, the crowds will problably more likely to follow Heaven, but it doesn't mean they are doing the right thing or something close to "good".
"Either way, why did Blizzard name them Heaven and Hell if both don't care about us? Could they not have named them something else to avoid all of this confusion about good and evil? Since people who have read the books say that Heaven is just as prone as Hell to destroy us, then why are they named Heaven? I am sure they knew that people would associate the names to good and evil due to popular culture, they can't not have thought about this."
I don't really know for sure. Before the Sin War, Heaven was just forbidden to interfer in Sanctuary as demons tryed to conquer it. However, now we know what Heaven is in the Diablo's universe and why Tyrael is a stray angel (i'm talking in our chronology). It happens problably because the Sin War are deeply inspired in the Odyssey and in the Illiad, and in the greek tradition gods exist both to help us and to screw us at the same time war is result our irrational passions.
''So it is all a act of revenge against the traitors and their families? But that was then, now is now. Our memories were erased, and we were not the traitors. We are not the ones that have done wrong, and I unless someone can explain why the Council decided to let Sanctuary remain, I assume that it is because they don't care about the humans, we have not done anything''
It's not a matter of revenge, it's their justice. I know it's a twisted concept, but it's execly how they think. Again, this information is very clear in the Sin War trilogy.
Noone know execly why the Council led sanctuary remain alone at a first moment. In my opnion is because Hell is a bigger priority, as humans are not execly enemies to the Council, but unwished beings.
"I'm fairly sure that angels and demons values life in different ways. Demons probably puts their own life above everything else. Angels probably puts the things/people that are more valuable than them above their own life. Life is probably not something sacred for demons, atleast not the life of anyone other than themselves. But I do believe that angels believes in preserving things that they love and/or finds more important than themselves. But why would angels care about us?""
Your arguments are all based at you beliefs, not in facts found in any lore canon.
We have close to nothing info about how the angels thinks and acts, because the two angels we know well Tyrael and Inarius are both rebels. The only exception is Imperius and his followers who cleary want to destroy Sanctuary and are surely very influent in the Council, once his a Archangel of War, and battle is seens to be their main priority.
All my opnions is based at what Trang'Oul says to Rathman. It is putted very clear that if any of the sides win, sanctuary looses. Thats why the balance between those two forces must remain and sanctuary destruction is happening triggered by the victory of any of those sides.
"This would pretty much be my picture of the struggle. Humans can be extremely useful when it comes to defeating Hell and eliminate the chaos that they support. But they can also be the end of Heaven and the status quo that they want to achieve. They could of course repeat their actions and create a new worldstone. There are probably many decisions that can be made, but the way the Angiris Council makes their decison this time might be different from the old one. But if someone could explain in more detail, why the Angiris Council decided to not destroy Sanctuary."
Your picture are right, with one big flaw. It's not the Council that created the worldstone to weak the Nephalem to prevent then to become a threat. This info is just wrong.
Who created the WS was Inarius and Lilith in their aliance to prevent Sanctuary been founded by both Heaven and Hell (wich automatically shows that both heaven and hell are a threat). However, Inarius "changed the frequency" of the WS, making it not just a invisible cloak to the other two planes, but also a tool to drain the Nephalem's might.
It's very clear that Heavens are not warmongers like Hell, in this very point you are right. However, in they eternal fight against Hell they sacrifices other worlds if needed and this very point makes then just like Hell who sacrifices other worlds for their needs. You can say Heaven sacrifices for the defiance of their causes, but it's just execly what Hell do. If you think angel's causes is greater and make then better then demons, well, it doesnt matter because the means never justify the ends.
"They dedicate themselves to war because they have to. Otherwise they would be "
destroyed."
Thats not true at all. Noone knows who started the Great Conflict. In most of the lore canon, this conflict is threated in a bilateral point of view. Heaven attacks Hell for their good and Hell fight Heaven for their own good too. The difference is what their represent, but as I side, angels are not victims that are only defending thenself. They are soldiers just like demons.
In the end it's just a ethical discussion that will never have a end. In my point of view, a police man that tortures a terrorist is EXECLY like a terrorist that torture a political enemy. They both do the same things to achieve their goal, different goals yes, but again, the ends really doens't matter when we are talking about the means. The fight for a "greater good" is in fact a act of egoism, because this greater good always represent something you like, you enjoy, wich makes you no different from a bandit. Altruism only exist when we are talking about the means, so a altruist person is someone who never uses means that hurt others, no matter what the end is.
So imo, Heaven is a threat to sanctuary, problably a lesser threat, but still not a ally. Thats what I like so much the Sin War trilogy and the lore behind the Necromancer.
We werent during Sanctuaries creation, then we were criminals that escaped the war, aware of what we were doing.
It's not a matter of what humans did, it's a matter of what humans are.
Humans did nothing in the creation of sanctuary, they did not even exist. The criminals for desertion are the angels and the demons who agreed to flee from the Great Conflict not the Nephalem.
The reason why some angels (problably most because tyriel who disagree are considered a transgressor) want the elimination of sanctuary is because it represents a act of betreyal and threat against their order.
About if Heavens win the Conflict? Theres absolutly no doubt that Sanctuary is going to be destroyed. Rathman put it very clear.
And don' think Heavens want the destruction of sanctuary because they want spare as of a eternity of slavery. The ethics of the angels are far different from our own where life and piece are something sacred - how can life and peace can be something important to a order that dedicates all eternity to war ? The High Heavens are not victims trying to defend something bigger. Execly like Hell, they are a army trying to win a war.
If the "greater good" of Heaven is to overcome all the other forces of the universe, what makes it different from Hell ?
The Burning Hell's Lords wants to conquer the sanctuary for two reasons. First they want to use the humans to finaly win the Great Conflict. Second, after the Sin War, demons start to seek vegeance because they lost that war because of the humans.
The High Heaven want to eliminate Sanctuary also for two reasons. First because humans have potential to become alot more powerfull then the own Heavens and this may threaten the plans Heavens have to the universes order. Second because sanctuary itself is a aberration because it was born out of a act of betreyal.
Noone here are telling Heaven and Hell are equal, infact they are opposed forces, but the opposite forces are not good vs. evil, it is order vs. chaos. And order are no better then chaos at the same proportion. A dictator is no better then a serial killer.
"Doesn't care about." can mean alot of things. You can not care about it in the way of Hell, just wanting to take over Sanctuary and add it to their "kingdom". Or you can not cae, like, not care at all what happens to it because it is not important. But it is the Hell that is attacking us, that is a thing to remember. And that makes them very different from Heaven.
The one and only difference between Heaven and Hell is that Heaven want to destroy sanctuary and Hell want to conquer it.
And a assassin is not that different of a person who intend to kill but can't.
Probably because we are not purely angels, so there were a possibility that we could join Hell. And since we were more powerful, then we would be a threat that could allow the demons to take over the world. Quite the thing that Heaven wants to avoid at all costs. If destroying a race is what it takes, then why not sacricifing it?
The holy spells thing was just a little fun thing, I was not really serious about that
But we might have the possibility of angels that are afraid that we will join Hell. Pretty tricky for our heroes to step into a battlefield between Heaven and Hell when one side wants to annihilate you (Hell) and the other is afraid of you (Heaven), and therefore finds it safest to also annihilate you. It is already confirmed that the heroes are stronger in D3, so they should have the potential of more power than angels or demons. And I guess that Heaven and Hell are kindof unable to change their opinions on certain things, that is one of the things that makes them the definition of good and evil.
And my logic still says that Heaven is nice. It wants to save as much as possible, with the main priority beeing themselves, obviously. Hell just wants to kill/enslave everything and fill the world with demons. Heaven have to be smart, they have to do everything the safe way to maintain the order and peace that are their goal.
You surely didn't read the books...
As the OP said, Heaven couldn't care less about Sanctuary then Hell. For different reasons, they are surely enemies of the humam kind. It is very clear in the books, just read it and you will see. Keep in mind that Tyriel is nor but a exception.
In some points you are right, maintain "order" are their goal, however it includes eliminating sanctuary. Save humans are not in their plans as far as I kno. Thats why the humans that have access to this kind of knowlegde, like the Priesthood of Rathman (D2 necromancer), fights against both sides, trying to keep a balance between then, because if one overcome the another sanctuary is surely doomed.
Thats why I think we will very problably have to fight Angels. The cristian crowd must understand that the concept of Heaven and Hell in this game are very different from their religion. Think about Zoroastrism, but instead of free choice between the two sides, humans should choose any of then.
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"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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You can make big point by posting the site were angels are acknowledge as the good guys of the story.
This thread only exist because the sin war trilogy is unpopular even among the diablo fans. And you are right, their intention is not absolutly clear - thats why is irrelevant to discuss it, unless you are discussing it in a speculative scenarium wich is not this thread case. The question is "CAN Heaven be a enemy in D3?", it's not speculation, it's a possibility, and yes it's damn possible.
@Elight: And i'm pretty tired of discussing this ... I've used all my arguments back there and i will not repeat then. I'm not talking about what is "good" and "evil". I never ever mentioned it in my posts.
The Heaven you are talking about are simply not pictured in any recent/relevant lore canon. So i have no reason of why Heaven should be a positive energy plane. It is putted several time that Heaven is bounded to "order" - not to "good" or a positive plane of pure delight and joy. I have already give the explantion of why Heaven is a potential threat in my preview posts, read then or (even better) read the sin war trilogy.
It's not that simple.
We have almost none idea of how Heaven is and how angels think. Any though about those stuff is merely baseless speculation.
What in have in terms of fact is D1 and D2 storyline, D3 recent lore and the Sin War trilogy. At D1 and D2 we have almost no contact with Heavens because Tyreal is a rebel angel.And in the Sin War trilogy the picture of Heaven is that they are potential enemies of Sanctuary just like Hell is. This is putted VERY clear in the damn books, if you didn't read then and don't want to believe what people read there - you need a bit more of lore in your brain.
And I'm pretty sure that is not me and Xerj who are basing our arguments in speculation of what we want or not in D3's plot. You are the one doing it because you simply want believe that Heaven are the good guys without even the minimun lore basement.
My bet is that the prime evils are caught in the Abyss and will return when they regain strength.
Hehehehe... relax
We all have our own personal speculations about D3's plot. Imo in the classic D3 our main enemy will be Azmodan and Belial. Maybe the last act is in hell at the middle of the civil war and we find two different kinds of demon army, so we gotta fight both to finish the game.
After that, Hell will suffer a terrible loss because all the seven Great Evils are missing and then the expancion will be our fight against Imperius and his angels trying to finish Sanctuary as hell is no longer a problem because of the lack of leadership.
Then we will have a second expancion that for some reason, the Prime Evils came back, and epically we gotta defeat our old and greatest enemies.
This is 100% speculation lol But it's how i feel
@emilemil1: i guess you understod pretty what i tryed to say in our discussion back there, based at how your opnion changed along the discussion. The only big difference in my and Xerj opnion and yours is the final plot that Heaven will have in the next game.
Obviously you feel that kill angels is a very weird and hope that someway, somehow, Heaven helps us and we leave in peace with then in the end. Actually I agree with you, but for totaly different reasons.
It's pretty sure that the demons is our prime enemies in the story, however why is that? It's because Hell are overcoming Heaven, breaking the balance, thats why we may allie with heaven to restore the balance. However, if the oposite happened, heaven totally overcoming hell, i'm pretty sure that we gotta fight heaven, maybe alling ourselfs with some demons, maybe not.
The main point of the topic is: Can Heaven be our enemy? My answer is and always will be yes. Blizz have suddenly released a huge amount of lore canon to us, and this lore canon put Heaven as a potential threat, just like Hell. I see no reason of why introduce the fanatical Archangel Imperius that want to crush sanctuary if he ended up not been our enemy. I don't see why promote the Necromancers as the only humans that knows the thruth about Heaven and Hell if they are wrong, if Heaven must not be fought if they break the balance. We will fight Heaven? Only Blizz knows. But I think thats it's very likely in the original game or in a EP.
We simpl?y don't know. Problably not because it was created by the Top Demon and the Top Angel at the same time.
Still, even if the Council and the angels can creat something like a WS, we have no clue if they want to do that. Actually, the only clue we have is that they don't to do that, they simply want to destroy all humans.
"War and violence is 2 different things. Atleast I don't count every act of violence to be war. If they chase down and punish 2 angels, that wouldn't make a war. It would have to be alot of more angels for them to have a civil war. And think about it. Both Tyrael and Inarius commited their "crimes" because of a war."
The problem is that theres allways more people to be chased. In the end it's something even worse then a war, it's just a slaugther. And Tyrael and Inarius made "crimes" against the war and were punished. This cleary shows the military nature of Heavens in Diablo.
"When I say "they create a worldstone" I mean it like "angels create a worldstone", not the Council as a group. They are obviously no different from other angels. But a second worldstone might be a possibility. But isn't there a possibility that the worldstone is directly connected with the world. They created the world rogether with the worldstone, and alot of things have changed since it was destroyed. Perhaps its energies are fading and Sanctuary is slowly beeing destroyed? And if you want to go even more crazy; Could it be the powers of Inarius and Lilith inside of all humans that are holding Sanctuary together?"
You said Heavens had created the WD. Inarius created it when his no longer follows heaven's rules. Also he created it together with Lilith, each means the WS may need a demonic power to be created. And again it doesn't matter that much if they can or not creat a WS. We have no lore cannon that shows us any intention of the Council to do such thing.
"It is not the fact that the humans are following what is truly good, there is nothing that truly can be good. But the humans follow what they think is the good side, based upon our knowledge. And that would be the most reasonable thing to do. It is like having 2 equally evil murderers. We could prefer either one of them, but one of the murderers (Heaven, as Tyrael) helped us, while the other murderer (Hell, as The Prime Evils) kept harming us. They are deep down equally bad, but which side would the humans choose? They would choose what seem right to them, that is the best that they can do. I'm not saying that heaven does something good, but Tyraels actions and the actions of The Prime Evils have already made most humans decide on Heaven to be the side they would support. And the way the humans had lived also contributed to them choosing the side that appears to act more like them, and that seem to have ethics that fits better with the humans. So to summarise it: Heaven is to the humans, good. If they are more like the humans than demons, that is up to Blizzard to tell us. But atm the acts that the humans have seen pictures Heaven as good, and Hell as bad."
Try to put all humam opnion in the same box is difficult. There alot of humans that follow hell, many do not believe in nether, some follow the what they think are the Heavens, etc... As I said people would be splitted apart and your character may follow or the neutral path or the path of heavens (of course you will not follow hell). The best they can do is put your character neutral because the Sin War shows us a disturbing picture of what Heaven really is and it would suck very much to follow the lead of something you know are not what they say they are.
About the thread: "Fightning both hell and heaven".
Yes thats is totaly possible to happen because both are a potential threat against your character's world.
Again, they cannot repeat a action they never did. The WS creation have nothing to do with the Council.
"There we have something noone mentioned before, that Trag'Oul stated it. But that could mean that if no side wins, Sanctuary can survive, because Heaven and Hell can't waste too much time on Sanctuary. I suppose that the only reason that it was invaded by demons in D1 and D2 was because The Prime Evils were there. Now, without the Worldstone, it would take much less effort to invade it, and it is a higher priority too."
Yes much less effort. And that means that now the possibility of have Heavens as our enemies is greater because Sanctuary can be now be transformed in Hell's outpost and theres a insane military high influential angel wanting us all dead.
And thats wht the thread is about, the possibility of have Heavens as a enemy.
"But think of the world their want to create. Order, a world without any problems, the perfect world for angels. Chaos, a world of unending torment, slavery and war. Chaos and war is very much connected. The demons likes to kill, that makes them a bit more savage than angels, but both sides are solders. But if Heaven could choose, would Heaven want a world with war? I'm sure Hell would, war is pretty chaotic. But with war, a world wouldn't be in order. And ofc they are not victims, I have never said that. They want to kill every demon just as much as demons wants to kill every angel. Angels are however not into war if it isn't neccessary, which it is in this case. You might say that it is my opinion that they doesn't want war if it isn't neccessary, but that is what I believe. But unfortunately, alot of things are neccessary in the world of angels, just to maintain order."
Order is far from a world without problens. And order is connected to war just like chaos is. Because to maintain a total perfect order violent actions is needed because people will always disagree about something (even both been right) and this conflicts leads to confusion, so to prevent that confusion the perfect order must eliminate one of the opnions with brute force. Thats execly what the Council do with "rebel" angels like Tyriel and Inarius, and both had initially a good intent. Actually war is connect to any absolute ideal, no matter what the ideal is.
However I agree heaven is much less savage then Hell, for sure. However I still see Heaven as a potential enemy, a lesser enemy, but a enemy.
"Now you are getting me wrong. I know that it was Inarius and Lilith that created the worldstone. And that does indeed prove that Heaven and Hell are a threat for them. They are traitors lol. And I know that Inaruis made it drain the power of the Nephalem so Lilith couldn't use their powers to build a personal super army. And I'd say that Heavens means justify their ends, just as Hells means justify their ends, from their point of view. You have to see everything from their point of view. Ofc it unevitably means that the humans can't remain as we are, because it would screw up the order, but it would suit Hell great, if they manage to enslave us. But the thing is, if Inarius and Lilith could createe a worldstone, why wouldn't the other archangels/demons be able to do the same thing? Or are they "tired" of having us there? It isn't exacly making their war any different to have a neutral Sanctuary there."
I get you wrong ? I just though you had said that the Council have created the Ws once, why they wouldn't do that another time...O.o
And actually we don't know what it takes to creat a world stone. It's certain that Inarius and Lilith are creatures of significant high power. Inarius was problably the most powerfull angel, but i'm not certain about Lilith. We just don't know if creat a second worldstone is possible.
"This is absolutely correct. But in your example we had only 2 parts, which creates the perfect balance. But in Diablo we have 3 parts, and the humans would probably choose a side that has reasons to fight that they support more than the others. But if both the police and the terrorist turns towards you and say that they don't want you in their world, they want it alone, then we have a problem. Unfortunately this is the case of Sanctuary. A place like Sanctuary can't exist in any of their worlds. But that doesn't stop us from liking Heaven more than Hell, if you pretend that the "you will die anyway" thing doesn't exist. This pretty much proves that Heaven is to us good, and Hell is evil, from our ethical point of view. But we have only seen the ways of demons, we have indeed never seen how angels are, so it is possible that we could like Hell more than Heaven if some events had been different."
The third part, the humans, will problably be divided between those two sides, like the Temple and the Cathedral. Some will seek Heavens for salvation, other will seek hell for power, but both sides don't knows what the fuck they are doing. Only a very small group of humans will have the insight to see that both sides don't want to help then, just use then as means to take a advantage against the other side. Of course, the crowds will problably more likely to follow Heaven, but it doesn't mean they are doing the right thing or something close to "good".
"Either way, why did Blizzard name them Heaven and Hell if both don't care about us? Could they not have named them something else to avoid all of this confusion about good and evil? Since people who have read the books say that Heaven is just as prone as Hell to destroy us, then why are they named Heaven? I am sure they knew that people would associate the names to good and evil due to popular culture, they can't not have thought about this."
I don't really know for sure. Before the Sin War, Heaven was just forbidden to interfer in Sanctuary as demons tryed to conquer it. However, now we know what Heaven is in the Diablo's universe and why Tyrael is a stray angel (i'm talking in our chronology). It happens problably because the Sin War are deeply inspired in the Odyssey and in the Illiad, and in the greek tradition gods exist both to help us and to screw us at the same time war is result our irrational passions.
It's not a matter of revenge, it's their justice. I know it's a twisted concept, but it's execly how they think. Again, this information is very clear in the Sin War trilogy.
Noone know execly why the Council led sanctuary remain alone at a first moment. In my opnion is because Hell is a bigger priority, as humans are not execly enemies to the Council, but unwished beings.
"I'm fairly sure that angels and demons values life in different ways. Demons probably puts their own life above everything else. Angels probably puts the things/people that are more valuable than them above their own life. Life is probably not something sacred for demons, atleast not the life of anyone other than themselves. But I do believe that angels believes in preserving things that they love and/or finds more important than themselves. But why would angels care about us?""
Your arguments are all based at you beliefs, not in facts found in any lore canon.
We have close to nothing info about how the angels thinks and acts, because the two angels we know well Tyrael and Inarius are both rebels. The only exception is Imperius and his followers who cleary want to destroy Sanctuary and are surely very influent in the Council, once his a Archangel of War, and battle is seens to be their main priority.
All my opnions is based at what Trang'Oul says to Rathman. It is putted very clear that if any of the sides win, sanctuary looses. Thats why the balance between those two forces must remain and sanctuary destruction is happening triggered by the victory of any of those sides.
"This would pretty much be my picture of the struggle. Humans can be extremely useful when it comes to defeating Hell and eliminate the chaos that they support. But they can also be the end of Heaven and the status quo that they want to achieve. They could of course repeat their actions and create a new worldstone. There are probably many decisions that can be made, but the way the Angiris Council makes their decison this time might be different from the old one. But if someone could explain in more detail, why the Angiris Council decided to not destroy Sanctuary."
Your picture are right, with one big flaw. It's not the Council that created the worldstone to weak the Nephalem to prevent then to become a threat. This info is just wrong.
Who created the WS was Inarius and Lilith in their aliance to prevent Sanctuary been founded by both Heaven and Hell (wich automatically shows that both heaven and hell are a threat). However, Inarius "changed the frequency" of the WS, making it not just a invisible cloak to the other two planes, but also a tool to drain the Nephalem's might.
It's very clear that Heavens are not warmongers like Hell, in this very point you are right. However, in they eternal fight against Hell they sacrifices other worlds if needed and this very point makes then just like Hell who sacrifices other worlds for their needs. You can say Heaven sacrifices for the defiance of their causes, but it's just execly what Hell do. If you think angel's causes is greater and make then better then demons, well, it doesnt matter because the means never justify the ends.
"They dedicate themselves to war because they have to. Otherwise they would be "
destroyed."
Thats not true at all. Noone knows who started the Great Conflict. In most of the lore canon, this conflict is threated in a bilateral point of view. Heaven attacks Hell for their good and Hell fight Heaven for their own good too. The difference is what their represent, but as I side, angels are not victims that are only defending thenself. They are soldiers just like demons.
In the end it's just a ethical discussion that will never have a end. In my point of view, a police man that tortures a terrorist is EXECLY like a terrorist that torture a political enemy. They both do the same things to achieve their goal, different goals yes, but again, the ends really doens't matter when we are talking about the means. The fight for a "greater good" is in fact a act of egoism, because this greater good always represent something you like, you enjoy, wich makes you no different from a bandit. Altruism only exist when we are talking about the means, so a altruist person is someone who never uses means that hurt others, no matter what the end is.
So imo, Heaven is a threat to sanctuary, problably a lesser threat, but still not a ally. Thats what I like so much the Sin War trilogy and the lore behind the Necromancer.
It's not a matter of what humans did, it's a matter of what humans are.
Humans did nothing in the creation of sanctuary, they did not even exist. The criminals for desertion are the angels and the demons who agreed to flee from the Great Conflict not the Nephalem.
The reason why some angels (problably most because tyriel who disagree are considered a transgressor) want the elimination of sanctuary is because it represents a act of betreyal and threat against their order.
About if Heavens win the Conflict? Theres absolutly no doubt that Sanctuary is going to be destroyed. Rathman put it very clear.
And don' think Heavens want the destruction of sanctuary because they want spare as of a eternity of slavery. The ethics of the angels are far different from our own where life and piece are something sacred - how can life and peace can be something important to a order that dedicates all eternity to war ? The High Heavens are not victims trying to defend something bigger. Execly like Hell, they are a army trying to win a war.
If the "greater good" of Heaven is to overcome all the other forces of the universe, what makes it different from Hell ?
The High Heaven want to eliminate Sanctuary also for two reasons. First because humans have potential to become alot more powerfull then the own Heavens and this may threaten the plans Heavens have to the universes order. Second because sanctuary itself is a aberration because it was born out of a act of betreyal.
Noone here are telling Heaven and Hell are equal, infact they are opposed forces, but the opposite forces are not good vs. evil, it is order vs. chaos. And order are no better then chaos at the same proportion. A dictator is no better then a serial killer.
The one and only difference between Heaven and Hell is that Heaven want to destroy sanctuary and Hell want to conquer it.
And a assassin is not that different of a person who intend to kill but can't.
You surely didn't read the books...
As the OP said, Heaven couldn't care less about Sanctuary then Hell. For different reasons, they are surely enemies of the humam kind. It is very clear in the books, just read it and you will see. Keep in mind that Tyriel is nor but a exception.
In some points you are right, maintain "order" are their goal, however it includes eliminating sanctuary. Save humans are not in their plans as far as I kno. Thats why the humans that have access to this kind of knowlegde, like the Priesthood of Rathman (D2 necromancer), fights against both sides, trying to keep a balance between then, because if one overcome the another sanctuary is surely doomed.
Thats why I think we will very problably have to fight Angels. The cristian crowd must understand that the concept of Heaven and Hell in this game are very different from their religion. Think about Zoroastrism, but instead of free choice between the two sides, humans should choose any of then.