where exactly does it say that everything the angels do is a reaction? As far as I know, they are an active side in a war, just as the demons are. The reasons to the war are unknown.
It's pretty obvious from excerpts taken from the books (yeah I've read some) that the angels war against demons because of their relentles, self interest only, and chaotic nature. the war is an everlasting reaction to these ever lusting, nonstop, offensive beings.
Quote from "Xerj" »
speculations. Their reasons may be completely different, and much more malevolent.
Though they have not shown any case of committing malevelont acts,. Again, give me some specific examples using your 'knowledge in lore' besides essentially saying, "I've read the books so this is why this is true". Show me a situation where the angels attacked a being just because....or where they have taken action against someone or something without the reason being illustrated through conversation of some type.
Quote from "Xerj" »
Not quite. You got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate everything that is not angelic in nature, and another part of heaven that got tired of it, ran away, created a race that is stronger than themselves and now want to control/kill it. Tyrael is an exception.
But why is that part of Heaven so focused on wanting to destroy the Nephalem and Sanctuary? Because they are part demonic blood and could potentially possess the same corruptive nature. And I already stated that Inarius is an exclusion because he is not part of the consensus.
Quote from "Xerj" »
Riiight... they strive for power and order. Same thing to those with less power than them.
How is acting against potential corruptive threats "striving for power"?
Quote from Xerj »
you see, the thing is, this is a thread which bases upon the diablo lore. Most of the lore is... you guessed it... in the books. Arguing about the lore without knowing it is like... well... stupid. Sorry, it is.
It's not that I can't counter your arguments, but you'll just make up new ones. You see, if you'll read the sin war trilogy, where (and I say this with no attempt to patronize you) the powers of heaven really really really are presented just as bad as the forces of hell, you'll understand what I'm talking about.
But you ofcourse don't want to read the books. You played the games, saw the nice Tyrael, and think you know all there is to know about the lore. Maybe you've even read a few wikis.
Well, there's more to that in the diablo universe. And I know that I could be a bit nicer telling you this but - I mean... you're arguing about a topic which you don't know and then tell everyone that just cause you don't know it and they don't explain it to you then it probably makes you right.
Get over yourself and go read the god damn books. People worked hard to write them, and blizzard worked hard to create a unique fantasy world with them. Where there are no "good guys" and "bad guys", but where there is an underdog (humanity) fighting off two bullies against all odds.
Jeesh, people like you are like those people who read about sport results in the papers and then say they've seen the game.
Like I keep stating, you don't have to know every bit of lore to gain an understanding of what the angels nature is. It is shown through plenty of dialogue that their actions are reactions to potential or immediate threats (the consensus). But you have to have an independent perspective instead of that of seemingly an inhabitant of Sanctuary to see that.
This thread only exist because the sin war trilogy is unpopular even among the diablo fans. And you are right, their intention is not absolutly clear - thats why is irrelevant to discuss it, unless you are discussing it in a speculative scenarium wich is not this thread case. The question is "CAN Heaven be a enemy in D3?", it's not speculation, it's a possibility, and yes it's damn possible.
@Elight: And i'm pretty tired of discussing this ... I've used all my arguments back there and i will not repeat then. I'm not talking about what is "good" and "evil". I never ever mentioned it in my posts.
The Heaven you are talking about are simply not pictured in any recent/relevant lore canon. So i have no reason of why Heaven should be a positive energy plane. It is putted several time that Heaven is bounded to "order" - not to "good" or a positive plane of pure delight and joy. I have already give the explantion of why Heaven is a potential threat in my preview posts, read then or (even better) read the sin war trilogy.
In that, I was addressing those who claim that there is no difference between angel and demon except for their looks, in which your stance seemed to be somewhat supportive of.
And again, you don't need to be a scholar in all of the books to gain an understanding of why they do what they do. Through the storyline and some of the lore which can be found just about anywhere on the net, it is shown that they are of a defensive nature. Pose no threat, and they wish you no harm. That makes them alot better than the other type in my book.
It's not that simple.
We have almost none idea of how Heaven is and how angels think. Any though about those stuff is merely baseless speculation.
What in have in terms of fact is D1 and D2 storyline, D3 recent lore and the Sin War trilogy. At D1 and D2 we have almost no contact with Heavens because Tyreal is a rebel angel.And in the Sin War trilogy the picture of Heaven is that they are potential enemies of Sanctuary just like Hell is. This is putted VERY clear in the damn books, if you didn't read then and don't want to believe what people read there - you need a bit more of lore in your brain.
And I'm pretty sure that is not me and Xerj who are basing our arguments in speculation of what we want or not in D3's plot. You are the one doing it because you simply want believe that Heaven are the good guys without even the minimun lore
basement.
All we need to know is why they do what they do, which is common knowledge from the D storylines and from exerpts taken from the books, in which everything the angels do is a reaction (talking about the consensus, not including those like Inarius). Their intent is to deal with any threats against them, which in turn is a threat to the establishment of order and structure. The reason Sanctuary is a target in question for them is because people (Nephalem) have the potential to be more powerful than both angel and demon, without any preset dedication to either side, meaning there is potential for powerful, self interested only, and corruptive people. So you got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate the whole batch to get rid of the potential "bad apples", and one side that wants to perserve the good ones. Sorry for us that we're on the pointy end side of this debate. Again, you can keep tapdancing around the "means" but its the understanding of the "ends" or the end result that they are trying to achieve that showcases what their nature is. This is totally different from a being that only thirsts for power and chaos.
And the irony here is that you claim that I have a biased view of what's "good" and "evil", when you and the others are judging what you claim to be "good" or "evil" purely based on who is currently either "friend" or "foe".
Quote from Zhar »
Just so you know, we're talking about Heaven in the diablo universe, not Heaven as seen by religion.
Heaven in diablo doesn't really care if Sanctuary is there or not, and some in heaven wish it to be completely destroyed.
Read up on some of the lore.
Which is the same Heaven I'm talking about. And like I stated above, the reason so many in Heaven aren't too happy with Sanctuary being in existence, is because of all the potential threats it contains.
Quote from Xerj »
I'm not even going to dignify you with a decent comment.
Instead of the repetitive "Go read the books" response, why don't you use the knowledge you have from these stories to counter my arguments. You're almost making it look like you can't.
Despite what some of you seem to assume, my position comes from the FACT that one entity leads to a "positive" atmosphere, while the other leads to a "negative" one. It can be seen just by reading exerpts describing Heaven in the D universe as a place where you can hear "children laughing, and people singing", which in FACT details a positive, euphoric atmosphere. Being that Heaven is the realm that exudes the very nature and desired atmosphere of that of the angels, its obvious that their ''ends'' in which they aim to achieve is a positive one, making them totally different to that of demons.
To sum it up,the difference is that if there is a particular being deemed to be harmless, the angels will leave it alone because it doesn't pose any threat to them, while a demon most likely would see it as usless then would want to dispose of it, yet if there is an entity that possesses the potential to be a powerful threat, the angels would want to have it dealt with as they see fit, while demons would want to control it and use it for their purposes alone.
I only want to know one thing before I comment any further - are you basing your assumptions on your knowledge of the books you've read or are you just throwing this out into the air?
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
All of you saying that the angels are no different from the demons are delusional, and are too focused on wanting them to be future ememies to fight against in the next chapter.
There is an obivous difference between the intent of the angels and those of demons. The angels aim to bring order while the demons aim to bring forth chaos. You can argue the means all you want but the ends define their true nature. The angels fight to destroy anything that threatens them, which would in turn threaten the existence of order and peace. So the fighting they do is actually "defensive offense".
The angels see Sanctuary as a threat because of the potential power the people have coupled with the selfish interest that some may possess. People who end up like the Summoner, is what they're worried about.
The reason Imperius is so passionate with his intent to destroy Sanctuary, I believe, is because he prepresents the offensive nature of heaven, while Tyrael represents the defensive side.
Bottom line though....angels and demons have totally different intentions, so stop trying to put them in the same boat just to make them all around enemies of us (The Heroes).
Emilemil1, you're the only one in here who has this understanding....don't let any of these others push you into thinking the way they do.
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It's pretty obvious from excerpts taken from the books (yeah I've read some) that the angels war against demons because of their relentles, self interest only, and chaotic nature. the war is an everlasting reaction to these ever lusting, nonstop, offensive beings.
Though they have not shown any case of committing malevelont acts,. Again, give me some specific examples using your 'knowledge in lore' besides essentially saying, "I've read the books so this is why this is true". Show me a situation where the angels attacked a being just because....or where they have taken action against someone or something without the reason being illustrated through conversation of some type.
But why is that part of Heaven so focused on wanting to destroy the Nephalem and Sanctuary? Because they are part demonic blood and could potentially possess the same corruptive nature. And I already stated that Inarius is an exclusion because he is not part of the consensus.
How is acting against potential corruptive threats "striving for power"?
Like I keep stating, you don't have to know every bit of lore to gain an understanding of what the angels nature is. It is shown through plenty of dialogue that their actions are reactions to potential or immediate threats (the consensus). But you have to have an independent perspective instead of that of seemingly an inhabitant of Sanctuary to see that.
In that, I was addressing those who claim that there is no difference between angel and demon except for their looks, in which your stance seemed to be somewhat supportive of.
And again, you don't need to be a scholar in all of the books to gain an understanding of why they do what they do. Through the storyline and some of the lore which can be found just about anywhere on the net, it is shown that they are of a defensive nature. Pose no threat, and they wish you no harm. That makes them alot better than the other type in my book.
All we need to know is why they do what they do, which is common knowledge from the D storylines and from exerpts taken from the books, in which everything the angels do is a reaction (talking about the consensus, not including those like Inarius). Their intent is to deal with any threats against them, which in turn is a threat to the establishment of order and structure. The reason Sanctuary is a target in question for them is because people (Nephalem) have the potential to be more powerful than both angel and demon, without any preset dedication to either side, meaning there is potential for powerful, self interested only, and corruptive people. So you got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate the whole batch to get rid of the potential "bad apples", and one side that wants to perserve the good ones. Sorry for us that we're on the pointy end side of this debate. Again, you can keep tapdancing around the "means" but its the understanding of the "ends" or the end result that they are trying to achieve that showcases what their nature is. This is totally different from a being that only thirsts for power and chaos.
And the irony here is that you claim that I have a biased view of what's "good" and "evil", when you and the others are judging what you claim to be "good" or "evil" purely based on who is currently either "friend" or "foe".
Which is the same Heaven I'm talking about. And like I stated above, the reason so many in Heaven aren't too happy with Sanctuary being in existence, is because of all the potential threats it contains.
Instead of the repetitive "Go read the books" response, why don't you use the knowledge you have from these stories to counter my arguments. You're almost making it look like you can't.
Despite what some of you seem to assume, my position comes from the FACT that one entity leads to a "positive" atmosphere, while the other leads to a "negative" one. It can be seen just by reading exerpts describing Heaven in the D universe as a place where you can hear "children laughing, and people singing", which in FACT details a positive, euphoric atmosphere. Being that Heaven is the realm that exudes the very nature and desired atmosphere of that of the angels, its obvious that their ''ends'' in which they aim to achieve is a positive one, making them totally different to that of demons.
To sum it up,the difference is that if there is a particular being deemed to be harmless, the angels will leave it alone because it doesn't pose any threat to them, while a demon most likely would see it as usless then would want to dispose of it, yet if there is an entity that possesses the potential to be a powerful threat, the angels would want to have it dealt with as they see fit, while demons would want to control it and use it for their purposes alone.
Obvious difference between the two.
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
There is an obivous difference between the intent of the angels and those of demons. The angels aim to bring order while the demons aim to bring forth chaos. You can argue the means all you want but the ends define their true nature. The angels fight to destroy anything that threatens them, which would in turn threaten the existence of order and peace. So the fighting they do is actually "defensive offense".
The angels see Sanctuary as a threat because of the potential power the people have coupled with the selfish interest that some may possess. People who end up like the Summoner, is what they're worried about.
The reason Imperius is so passionate with his intent to destroy Sanctuary, I believe, is because he prepresents the offensive nature of heaven, while Tyrael represents the defensive side.
Bottom line though....angels and demons have totally different intentions, so stop trying to put them in the same boat just to make them all around enemies of us (The Heroes).
Emilemil1, you're the only one in here who has this understanding....don't let any of these others push you into thinking the way they do.