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Quote from rozmata

I am sure the most useful skills around for DH will be multishoot and impale. Everything else will be just good to have if you really need it. Basic hatred gen skills like bolla shoot won't be needed with correct use of other skills from discipline but you may want to use them as some give you very nice fighting options, though you may have better use from discipline skills instead. But as this is all imo we should w8 and see. Thankfully D3 let us change skills on the fly and experiment to find what works and what we like.

Impale?!? It does mediocre dmg for a very high hatred cost. And I don;'t like multishot because it almost feels like blizzard is trying to force me to use it. Well ya know what blizzard, MIDDLE FINGER!!!

Quote from Exitium

Since Inspire has been nerfed <TO THE GROUND!!!!!>, I think I'll be running a build like this, or this, with Scoundrel follower...

You have no way to generate hatred or even disc! Personally, I never really liked marked for death. It seems like I could do just as much if not more dmg by not wasting a spell cast on it.

I will give you an example of what I am talking about.

You don't want to use Hatred Generators, so what do you do?
Well you get Breath Deep of course to give you the 60 Hatred. Well then you need some way to keep disc up to spam that, so what now? Well you pickup multi-shot of course. You then spend the hatred you gained on multi-shot in hopes to restore your discipline in order to do smoke screen again. And its just one big circle jerk.

So in the end you are going to be spending a good portion of your time spamming multi-shot, which really doesnt even hit for much more than a hatred generator anyways, and wasting globals on a bunch of disc spells that don't even do dmg. Thats my problem with the idea anyways.



Ohh yah,
You need to check out the Templars lvl 20 abilities. Inspire yields 1 hatred per second and 1 discipline per second.

A passive called Night Stalker (Fast atks = lots of crits), though it doesnt say the chance yet.
And a passive called perfectionist.


2h xbows are only 1.1 attacks per second.

Natural Regen + Companion + Shadow Power + Inspire(Templar) = 11.5 Hatred per second, and Rapid fire only costs 10 per cast. Rapid Fire used to say it shoots 6x faster for like 38% wpn dmg if I recall. Now the tooltip has just been simplified. It doesnt actually consume Hatred 6x faster, thats mainly just graphics.

Inspire brings our passive discipine regen to 2 discipline per second. With Perfectionist, our passive regen completely pays for shadow power, which in turn leaves our entire discipline bubble for Hatred gen abilities.

Lets say with a big 2h Xbow I shoot 1.5x per second, thats 15 Hatred per second.
15 Hps - 11.5 Hps = 3.5 Hps

Starting Hatred = 175-20 = 155
155 Hatred / 3.5 Hps = 44 seconds

You could fire RF for 44 seconds before finally running out. And if you threw in some smoke screens or Preps from time to time you would never run out.

Quote from azuresky808

Quote from jaclashflash

Quote from azuresky808

Smoke Screen 80 over 20 sec (but has added bonus of stealth)
Companion 50 over 20 sec (but it is passive)
Preparation 125 over 20 sec (necessary for build)
Preparation + Vengeance 175 over 20 sec (Another passive option, note it is almost the same regen as the companion)

Shadow power is also an ability that can increase hatred gen.
Also, I cannot see trying to do a build w/o hatred generators and not taking vengeance. Its just way too good.

Shadow Power + Bat + Natural Regen could potentially fun Rapid fire near indefinetely. Especially with a slower wpn.

Shadow Power is a double edged sword. It also increases the rate at which you use hatred. The amount you gain does not out weigh the higher spending during the time it is active. Shadow Power is the least efficient option.

Also the Shadow Power + Companion + natural regen is in no way able to fund Rapid Fire. It can not even sustain firing the most efficient spell Elemental Arrow. Remember Rapid Fire has an extremely fast attack speed modifier. Even if it only spends 10 per shot you fire almost 2.3+ times a second if not more. Compared to Elemental Arrow going 1.4 a sec using a bow and you get the picture. Rapid Fire is the last spell you ever want to use.

On top of that Shadow Power + Companion + natural regen generates less hatred than a vengeance/prep + anything else build + natural regen. You mention needing vengeance because it is 'too good' this is only because you NEED to spend your discipline on Prep and it generates an extra 50 hatred per pop.

Bottom line if you want to go generator less you CAN NOT use Shadow Power OR Rapid FIre. You dedicate too much discipline into Shadow Power to justify the damage (especially when you run out of hatred) and than you have none left for Preparation. Rapid Fire's modifier is just too high and it costs too much.

You did state that Vengeance is too good and this is also not true. With a combination of Breathe Deep and the Companion and Preparation (with a rune other than the one to regen hatred) you will have way more than enough discipline to fuel the hatred costs of everything without having to rely on Vengeance. Remember the only reason why it is good in the first place was because Preparation is made much better by it.

On the beta with 2 fast xbows I could sustain Rapid fire for a considerable amount of time(The full duration of shadow power) and thats w/o the other 2 sources of hatred regen. This was when Rapid fire said it increased your attack speed 6x and I was under the effect of shadow power as well.

This isn't WoW, its not about sustained dps over a 5 minute fight. There are also other sources of discipline you are neglecting. The starting amount of resources you have is not irrelevant, not even close.... In fact, I would wager its the largerst portion of your dmg.

Vengeance is quite good especially if you go crimson Prep...
+50 Hatred at start of every fight.
+50 Hatred every time you use prep
+10 Hatred & +1 Disc when you run across health globes.

You would be a fool to use it w/o imo.


PS: I dont particularly see the point in generatorless builds myself... Seems like you go through a lot of trouble picking up a bunch of medicore disc skills just to stop from picking up one generator. But some people like to be special snowflakes I guess.

Quote from azuresky808

Smoke Screen 80 over 20 sec (but has added bonus of stealth)
Companion 50 over 20 sec (but it is passive)
Preparation 125 over 20 sec (necessary for build)
Preparation + Vengeance 175 over 20 sec (Another passive option, note it is almost the same regen as the companion)

Shadow power is also an ability that can increase hatred gen.
Also, I cannot see trying to do a build w/o hatred generators and not taking vengeance. Its just way too good.

Shadow Power + Bat + Natural Regen could potentially fun Rapid fire near indefinetely. Especially with a slower wpn.

Quote from azuresky808

http://eu.battle.net...lTik!chV!ZaYacb

Just added to the front post as well. It was something I came up with after taking a look at someone with the same concept. His had generators though. I really like this option of using Breathe Deep instead of Preparation. There are some interesting things you can change with it. For example the companion is only there for an extra little bit of damage and nothing more. It can be switched for Rapid Fire because with Preparation Rapid Fire may be viable enough to work over a longer period of time than the other build I posted (change the rune on the companion and you are talking about some serious hatred gen over that time).

The rune on Prep is debatable. The point of Prep was to allow Smoke Screen to be used in a bind and if you are in a bind you might be needing the health as well. Other than that Prep can be used with other runes like onyx since onyx will provide probably the best total bonus for what this build needs.

Fan of Knives is an okay option as well instead of the Companion, but with Elemental Arrow having a reliable slow that option is really personal preference. Personally I will most likely stick with either the Companion or Explosive Shot (with the healing yellow? rune).

21 Discipline for 175 hatred seems a lot better than 15 Discipline for 60 hatred.

Also, why not go with more passive hatred regen and lower cost spells.