I think you focus way too much on electrified mobs - this isn't Diablo 2, there are plenty of mob affixes which can cause serious problems. Its been said that it'll be much more important to be well balanced and dynamic rather than good at a specific thing. That being said, Impale will be useful as you described - just don't overrate it!
Yes, like I said it's an estimate though; I think I made it 10 seconds because inbetween using Caltrops and whatever else you shouldn't need it too often - hopefully anyway
To be honest no, I hadn't though of electrified mobs really, I guess carrying some nice resistance and using walls etc. will do enough - failing that a nice Cluster Arrow /w Loaded for Bear would dispatch any electrified nasties pretty quick! I don't really intend to play that much multiplayer, I quite like bobbing about in single player! I imagine such mobs will be a problem for any class/build if they aren't careful - that story is funny though Poor guys!
A good point about the range. Still, this is assuming 3APS, which if using a 2h Xbow is pretty hard to get from 1.1APS. (272%IAS). Like I said in the post, I'm not aiming to get that much IAS for any build, I'm just showing that the setup still works even at crazy levels.
Edit: I only say 27 because this is the highest I have been able to figure with napkin math hatred gen per sec can get using this type of build.
I think it's possible to get more H/s than that. It revolves around Multishotting and Prep (Pun) - remembering that Prep has no CD in that form, it means you can theoretically generate "infinite" hatred - though it's not really infinite because it takes time to cast MS.
In fact, I'll put some numbers into some of my equations and see what happens... Let's say we have an AS of 3/sec, so we want to be aiming at about 45H/s to be totally super-spam sustainable.
We'll first need to estimate a max D regen, based on the MS equation I made: D/s = 5N/T + B. We know that we can "cast" 3 MS's per second here, if we cast MS pretty much non-stop we'll generate 16D/s, which would mean we could use Prep every second if we had Perfection also... Gasp!
H/s = V(Dr/Dc) + B
V here is 150, if we assume Vengeance, but lets also assume Perfection, Companion.and 6H/s from gear. Hence, Dc is 16, B is 13.5.
Sub in our target of 45; 45 = 150(Dr/16) + 13.5.
Rearrage and solve gives Dr = 3.36 D/s needed to sustain. i.e. we need to cast Preparation once every 4.8secs. That being said, this wouldn't leave us with any Discipline for anything else, such as Caltrops or Vault. If we had another 2D/s to account for Caltrops and Vault then we want a regen of 5.4D/s - still casting Prep once every 4.8 secs. This is getting into the realms of super button mashing though - I won't be aiming towards anything as fast paced as this - unless I need to to be competitive.
To get 5.4D/s we would need to cast N = [(5.4 - B)T]/5, where B is 1 and T is 4.8. i.e. N = 4.2 Multishots per cycle, This would take 1.4 seconds of our 4.8 seconds cycle. Leaving 3.4 secs, i.e. 10 "cast" slots - 10x15 = 150. This checks out since we're generating 45H/s (think of it as Prep covering all the damage and passives as covering MS). - That was just to check I hadn't done a bad.
Please scrutinise.
Basically it is possible, you could even couple Nightstalker and Multishot within a crit build. This is also very useful. A skill list for all classes and abilities is here. There are affixes for RF (crit) and EA (damage).
Edit: Just noticed that when I factored Vault/Caltrops in, we wouldn't actually be casting Prep any more often - the numbers have been changed accordingly.
Yeah I got kind of tired of typing so I didn't write it all out fully.
Basically, the Duration stuff either looks at the actually duration of an ability, assumes you will use it back-to-back, then estimates how many times you might you it in one "Duration". For abilities without a cooldown, I estimate how often they're used, i.e. my estimate of Vault usage was once per 10 seconds. You make a good point about SS and SP, but can you attack whilst SS is up? In the table I estimate you might use SS or SP once per ten seconds. The formatting was lost on those table, annoyingly. Also it doesn't seem the forum understand the greater than symbol...
The hatred spender costs increase directly dependantly on the H/s that I estimate. The post before yours shows what I mean. The post I did with the Math was a basis for me to continue to "prove" what will and won't work. I totally agree with all your points on IAS, took a quick look at the spreadsheet too. It was becoming obvious as I wrote aforementioned post that a 2h Xbow would probably be the best option for most builds - with quiver of course. The effect is actually twofold as well, since using a 2h weapon bias' you to selecting IAS gear for most DPS, it actually increases the chance for number of Nightstalker procs (see equation) AND the effect of Archery increases your Critical Strike damage. Admittedly though DW'ing is probably not far behind, so it seems things are kind of normalised to a point.
Yeah I was going to factor attack speeds in eventually. Since I calculated everything based on 1 APS then all you have to do is multiply the figures I gave by the APS value. i.e. EA spam @ 1APS = 10H/s, but @ 1.4APS it'd be 14H/s.
Abilities are assumed to be used exactly on cooldown.
No Passives etc are included in calculations unless otherwise specified.
D regeneration is assumed to be base, i.e. One.
This formula is used for H Generators marked with an * :
H/s = V(Dr/Dc) + B where V is the amount of Hatred the skill grants , Dr is the Discipline Regen, Dc is the Discipline cost of the skill. B is the Sum of True Passive Regens (i.e "Base" regen + Gear).
1) Prep ; 10.75H/s with No Veng. 12H/s with Veng. 13.9H/s with Veng & Perf.
2) Gear (Pure) - DualWield + Cloak + Base = 14.5H/s. 2H/Quiver + Cloak = 11.2 H/s
3) Smoke Screen ; 7H/s no Perf. 7.8H/s with Perf.
4) Shadow Power ; 6.75H/s no Perf. 7.3 with Perf.
5) Companion ; 3H/s + 4.5H/s = 7.5H/s.
Rank with no Passives: DW Pure Gear > Prep > 2H Pure Gear > Comp > SS > SP.
It is important to note that to calculate the total H generation if multiple skills are used then you must account for the fact that base regen is included in each one.
"Passive" Discipline Regeneration of each Skill
These equations/values are simple estimate as to what D regeneration we will get depending on certain gear factors and assumptions. The values will be used later on after evaluating Discipline consumption for a particular build.
1) Multishot - If we assume 5 targets are hit per use, then this gives us 5D. Assuming 1 Attack per Second, that's 5D/s. BUT, we aren't going to be spamming MS constantly - it's better to evaulate the average D/s generated over a certain time. the equation for this is:
D/s = 5N/T + B where is the Number of MS uses, T is a given time and B is the base D regen of 1/s.
For example, if we assume 3 MS uses per 15 seconds then that gives us a total regen of about 2D/s.
2) Nightstalker - this is very difficult to accurately quantify because it depends on several variables. I worked out an equation that provides a rough estimate of D/s, such that if we gain more information it will become useful. As is, it is a vague estimate based on educated guesswork. It is:
D/s = 2CP(APSbar) C is Crit chance and P is Proc Chance, expressed as decimals ideally. APSbar is the Average Attacks per Second.
So, if we had 35% Crit, the Proc chance of NS is 50% and we average 5APS then D/s is 2(0.35)(0.5)(5) = 1.75.
3) Prep (unruned) - 30D/45s = 0.66D/s
4) Prep (Focused Mind) - 45D/45s = 1D/s (I believe Cooldown remains), providing you don't cap D whilst Prep is active.
Naturally you can't use Prep for D regen if you're using it for H regen, but if you do use it for D regen you should rune it unless you prefer the instant effect of the unruned version.
Discipline Spenders - Estimations!
I've estimated how often a skill might get used if it has no duration, if it has a duration I have assumed it's used back-to-back. Sentry & Companion have been excluded, Sentry because I'm not sure if you can have multiple ones down, Companion because it's one use only.
Using these figures I've estimated rough discipline consumptions for certain build styles:
Prep Build - 3.5D/s -> 4D/s
Crit Build - 4D/s -> 5D/s
Risky Alt Build - 3D/s -> 4D/s
The riskier (the less discipline skills you have) the less D you will consume per sec on average - obviously.
Hatred Spenders - Estimations
Both Cluster Arrow and Impale have been excluded from my estimations because I believe they are both special cases that require analysis within a particular build.
Assuming 1 APS and spamming ability, or use on cooldown:
RoV - 40H (30s CD) - 1.33H/s (this must be added on top of any ability you expect to be using during the CD).
MS - 15H/s
EA - 10H/s
FoK - 20H (10s CD) - 2H/s (same rule as RoV)
Chak - 10H/s
Strafe - 15H/s?
RF - 20H -> 10H, avg ~15H/s
Basically we see that all the above abilities should be sustainable with Hatred Generation of about 15H/s - less if using lower cost abilities, or using certain gear.
Now we have rough estimates for a particular build, or what sort of generation we need - we also have estimates of how much regeneration a given ability provides.
I've done some more accurate math in regards to expenditure vs. generation for both H and D. I now have some ballpark figures for what total regen values we should be aiming for to sustain and also figures for how we could achieve them. Will post them here and also add to guide shortly.
That doesn't make sense. Your attack moves use hated. Your defense moves use discipline. Focus on discipline replenishment, so you can pop Preperation whenever you need to. Now you can spam offensive and defensive skills all you like, while not requiring any "Hate Generators". I believe that was the original intention of this post.
We're trying to lessen Discipline consumption whilst being able to maintain the "spam offensive" idea, this leaves us more breathing room when we want to use other Discipline abilities - without being tied down to X number of Multishots per cycle. Though admittedly it's the simplest solution. My "guide" post was to look at the possibilities we had... Though unfortunately it needs revising, which I think I'll do now.
Edit: And as azure says, we want to optimise how much hatred we actually generate, it's kind of min/maxing within the build.
P.S. I'm not doing this so I can pick which build style is the best dps, I want to play the most fun one... The more options there are the better the chance I'll come up with something great!
I screwed up my math when calculating hatred regen from items (post is fixed now). Max is 10H/s with dual wield hand crossbows and 6.66 with other ranged weapons.
Is this because Quivers are an off-hand item? I thought they just sat in the inventory, chillin'.
Yup. They are a bit strange though, since you can equip them with a 2h crossbow or 2h bow as well as with a single 1h hand crossbow. Neither of the 2h options can have hatred regen or max discipline, so you need either 1h xbow + quiver + cloak or 1h xbow + 1h xbow + cloak to get the maximum regen.
Well that's retarded, I can see why you would have a quiver with a 2h Bow/XBow, but why would you choose a 1h Bow and then not use an OH bow as well? Seem really pointless.
I screwed up my math when calculating hatred regen from items (post is fixed now). Max is 10H/s with dual wield hand crossbows and 6.66 with other ranged weapons.
Is this because Quivers are an off-hand item? I thought they just sat in the inventory, chillin'.
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To be honest no, I hadn't though of electrified mobs really, I guess carrying some nice resistance and using walls etc. will do enough - failing that a nice Cluster Arrow /w Loaded for Bear would dispatch any electrified nasties pretty quick! I don't really intend to play that much multiplayer, I quite like bobbing about in single player! I imagine such mobs will be a problem for any class/build if they aren't careful - that story is funny though Poor guys!
I think it's possible to get more H/s than that. It revolves around Multishotting and Prep (Pun) - remembering that Prep has no CD in that form, it means you can theoretically generate "infinite" hatred - though it's not really infinite because it takes time to cast MS.
In fact, I'll put some numbers into some of my equations and see what happens... Let's say we have an AS of 3/sec, so we want to be aiming at about 45H/s to be totally super-spam sustainable.
We'll first need to estimate a max D regen, based on the MS equation I made: D/s = 5N/T + B. We know that we can "cast" 3 MS's per second here, if we cast MS pretty much non-stop we'll generate 16D/s, which would mean we could use Prep every second if we had Perfection also... Gasp!
H/s = V(Dr/Dc) + B
V here is 150, if we assume Vengeance, but lets also assume Perfection, Companion.and 6H/s from gear. Hence, Dc is 16, B is 13.5.
Sub in our target of 45; 45 = 150(Dr/16) + 13.5.
Rearrage and solve gives Dr = 3.36 D/s needed to sustain. i.e. we need to cast Preparation once every 4.8secs. That being said, this wouldn't leave us with any Discipline for anything else, such as Caltrops or Vault. If we had another 2D/s to account for Caltrops and Vault then we want a regen of 5.4D/s - still casting Prep once every 4.8 secs. This is getting into the realms of super button mashing though - I won't be aiming towards anything as fast paced as this - unless I need to to be competitive.
To get 5.4D/s we would need to cast N = [(5.4 - B)T]/5, where B is 1 and T is 4.8. i.e. N = 4.2 Multishots per cycle, This would take 1.4 seconds of our 4.8 seconds cycle. Leaving 3.4 secs, i.e. 10 "cast" slots - 10x15 = 150. This checks out since we're generating 45H/s (think of it as Prep covering all the damage and passives as covering MS). - That was just to check I hadn't done a bad.
Please scrutinise.
Basically it is possible, you could even couple Nightstalker and Multishot within a crit build. This is also very useful. A skill list for all classes and abilities is here. There are affixes for RF (crit) and EA (damage).
Edit: Just noticed that when I factored Vault/Caltrops in, we wouldn't actually be casting Prep any more often - the numbers have been changed accordingly.
Basically, the Duration stuff either looks at the actually duration of an ability, assumes you will use it back-to-back, then estimates how many times you might you it in one "Duration". For abilities without a cooldown, I estimate how often they're used, i.e. my estimate of Vault usage was once per 10 seconds. You make a good point about SS and SP, but can you attack whilst SS is up? In the table I estimate you might use SS or SP once per ten seconds. The formatting was lost on those table, annoyingly. Also it doesn't seem the forum understand the greater than symbol...
The hatred spender costs increase directly dependantly on the H/s that I estimate. The post before yours shows what I mean. The post I did with the Math was a basis for me to continue to "prove" what will and won't work. I totally agree with all your points on IAS, took a quick look at the spreadsheet too. It was becoming obvious as I wrote aforementioned post that a 2h Xbow would probably be the best option for most builds - with quiver of course. The effect is actually twofold as well, since using a 2h weapon bias' you to selecting IAS gear for most DPS, it actually increases the chance for number of Nightstalker procs (see equation) AND the effect of Archery increases your Critical Strike damage. Admittedly though DW'ing is probably not far behind, so it seems things are kind of normalised to a point.
H Generation Options: ¦ D Generation Options
Abilities are assumed to be used exactly on cooldown.
No Passives etc are included in calculations unless otherwise specified.
D regeneration is assumed to be base, i.e. One.
This formula is used for H Generators marked with an * :
H/s = V(Dr/Dc) + B where V is the amount of Hatred the skill grants , Dr is the Discipline Regen, Dc is the Discipline cost of the skill. B is the Sum of True Passive Regens (i.e "Base" regen + Gear).
1) Prep ; 10.75H/s with No Veng. 12H/s with Veng. 13.9H/s with Veng & Perf.
2) Gear (Pure) - DualWield + Cloak + Base = 14.5H/s. 2H/Quiver + Cloak = 11.2 H/s
3) Smoke Screen ; 7H/s no Perf. 7.8H/s with Perf.
4) Shadow Power ; 6.75H/s no Perf. 7.3 with Perf.
5) Companion ; 3H/s + 4.5H/s = 7.5H/s.
Rank with no Passives: DW Pure Gear > Prep > 2H Pure Gear > Comp > SS > SP.
It is important to note that to calculate the total H generation if multiple skills are used then you must account for the fact that base regen is included in each one.
"Passive" Discipline Regeneration of each Skill
These equations/values are simple estimate as to what D regeneration we will get depending on certain gear factors and assumptions. The values will be used later on after evaluating Discipline consumption for a particular build.
1) Multishot - If we assume 5 targets are hit per use, then this gives us 5D. Assuming 1 Attack per Second, that's 5D/s. BUT, we aren't going to be spamming MS constantly - it's better to evaulate the average D/s generated over a certain time. the equation for this is:
D/s = 5N/T + B where is the Number of MS uses, T is a given time and B is the base D regen of 1/s.
For example, if we assume 3 MS uses per 15 seconds then that gives us a total regen of about 2D/s.
2) Nightstalker - this is very difficult to accurately quantify because it depends on several variables. I worked out an equation that provides a rough estimate of D/s, such that if we gain more information it will become useful. As is, it is a vague estimate based on educated guesswork. It is:
D/s = 2CP(APSbar) C is Crit chance and P is Proc Chance, expressed as decimals ideally. APSbar is the Average Attacks per Second.
So, if we had 35% Crit, the Proc chance of NS is 50% and we average 5APS then D/s is 2(0.35)(0.5)(5) = 1.75.
3) Prep (unruned) - 30D/45s = 0.66D/s
4) Prep (Focused Mind) - 45D/45s = 1D/s (I believe Cooldown remains), providing you don't cap D whilst Prep is active.
Naturally you can't use Prep for D regen if you're using it for H regen, but if you do use it for D regen you should rune it unless you prefer the instant effect of the unruned version.
Discipline Spenders - Estimations!
I've estimated how often a skill might get used if it has no duration, if it has a duration I have assumed it's used back-to-back. Sentry & Companion have been excluded, Sentry because I'm not sure if you can have multiple ones down, Companion because it's one use only.
Skill - Cost - Cost /w Perf - Duration - Usage/per Duration
Skill - Estimate of D/s - Estimate of D/s with Perf
Using these figures I've estimated rough discipline consumptions for certain build styles:
Hatred Spenders - Estimations
Both Cluster Arrow and Impale have been excluded from my estimations because I believe they are both special cases that require analysis within a particular build.
Assuming 1 APS and spamming ability, or use on cooldown:
Now we have rough estimates for a particular build, or what sort of generation we need - we also have estimates of how much regeneration a given ability provides.
More to come later on/Tommorrow.
We're trying to lessen Discipline consumption whilst being able to maintain the "spam offensive" idea, this leaves us more breathing room when we want to use other Discipline abilities - without being tied down to X number of Multishots per cycle. Though admittedly it's the simplest solution. My "guide" post was to look at the possibilities we had... Though unfortunately it needs revising, which I think I'll do now.
Edit: And as azure says, we want to optimise how much hatred we actually generate, it's kind of min/maxing within the build.
P.S. I'm not doing this so I can pick which build style is the best dps, I want to play the most fun one... The more options there are the better the chance I'll come up with something great!
Well that's retarded, I can see why you would have a quiver with a 2h Bow/XBow, but why would you choose a 1h Bow and then not use an OH bow as well? Seem really pointless.
Is this because Quivers are an off-hand item? I thought they just sat in the inventory, chillin'.