Where in anything that Blizzard released did they say that the wizard class would be a glass cannon?
I can't find it anywhere in the current site nor do I remember any press release about the Wizard being a glass cannon. Is this glass cannon concept of a wizard simply you're interpretation of how a wizard should be?
If you're projecting Diablo 2 classes into Diablo 3 then this whole argument is pointless. The Barbarian and Wizard are making a come back but that in no way implies they should play the same way they did in D2.
In every piece of fiction, the wizard/mage/sorcerer class has its own interpretation of how the class should work. Even in 4th edition D&D, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a controller class, meaning it does not do the most damage. Just because you have pre-conceived notions of a class does not make it so.
I'll admit that no one questioned this because in many fiction works/worlds, the wizard is portrayed as a glass cannon. But there are equally as many works where the Wizard is a melee fighter with spells or some variation.
People are missing the point of the OP. He's comparing 1 specific skill/rune from Wizard vs 1 specific skill/rune for a different class.
Class balance was never never never never the concern when creating class abilities. Its the whole reason they chose not to do do ranked PvP. And PvP when it was there was group PvP. That allowed for crazy ideas to abilities, some of which we now have.
If you look at the Wizard vs DH and look at all the skills and passives, the Wizard has a much better bursty dmg ability and utility. Here's the kind of comparison that I think we need to make if we want to complain about the class being under/over powered.
If you complain about this wizard example using so many slot abilities/passives to achieve this, then realise that this comparison is ONLY to calc the max possible damage as far as I can tell from the OP and I didn't choose the spells. Also, there were no other skills I cound find that would add damage to the spell for 1 round, where as the wizard had more than enough to fill all 6 slots.
Which only proves that a spell vs spell comparison between classes that were not meant to be balanced is illogical.
------------------------------------------------------ Assumption: All the damage happens in 1 round (ie. Only 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs not included) Assumption: 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs already pre-cast Assumption: Ignoring all Resource Regen Assumption: Both using a weapon with the same weapon speed
------------------------------------------------------
Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow: 115%+35% = 150% (I am adding all DOT damage into 1 round) (I have no idea how to calc for pierce and I have seen no math telling me exactly how to do this)
Marked for Death: Marks an enemy for the next 30sec dealing 12% additional damage
Archery - Bow: 15% increased damage
Steady Aim: 20% increased damage if no mobs in 10 yards
So in 1 Round with Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow, a demon hunter can do 197% Damage. - If using Bows - If no mobs in 10 yards - Every 30 secs, Marked for Death is recast
Cull the Weak - If mobs is slowed do 15% more damage This was the only other ability/passive I could find to potentially increase Hungering Arrow's damage. Although I don't profess to be an expert on DH's abilties.
-------------------------------------------------------
Magic Missile-Charged Blast: 143% Arcane Damage
Familiar-Sparkflint : Adds 32% dmg for 120 secs
Magic Weapon-Force Weapon: Adds 15% dmg for 120 secs
Glass Cannon-15% to all damage
So in 1 Round with Magic Missile-Charged Blast, a wizard can do 205% Damage - Every 120 secs, Familiar+Magic Weapon is recast Also this will apply this (62%) to every single damage spell for the wizard
Slow time-Time Warp: Adds 20% more damage for 8 secs if caught in the Time Warp Mirror Image-Mirror Mimics: Potentially adds 10% dmg Archon-Improved Archon: In terms of burst damage, this supposedly adds 1250% dmg for 15secs
These 3 abilities can also be added to increase that 1 round of damage. Mirror Image as far as I know is not 100% guranteed damage, Slow time has a 20sec cooldown but it is consistent, and Archon has a super high cooldown but again, 1250% damage?!? Holy hell, Wrath of the Bezerker for the Barbarian might be a counterpart but I'm pretty sure the DH has no such equivlent.
-------------------------------------------------------
Demon hunter - Hungering Arrow: 230-300% wpn dmg depending on rune. (Homing capabilities, which make it near impossible to miss.)
- Generates 3 Hatred 115% Dmg & 35% Pierce
- Please explain how you arrive at 230%-300% with the runes. I have no idea how you are calculating the Pierce effect.
- Also important to note, If you compare casting time of a Magic Missile vs a Hungering Arrow, Magic Missile wins. You can literally spam MM much faster than you can Hungering Arrow. I have no idea how to calculate this but the difference is noticible.
=> Unless you can provide a formula for calculating Pierce, and compensate for the slight slowness of Hungering Arrow, your comparison is not apples vs apples.
Witch Doctor - Poison dart - splinters - 180% wpn dmg (Very efficient with low overkill, as the other darts will fly past the mob if he dies from the 1st one or 2.)
- You do ralize that moving targets are a problem with this spell right? I've had many many instances when the first dart hits but because the monster was moving the other 2 darts miss.
- Again, Poison dart - splinters is very slow compared with Magic Missile. Much slower than Hungering Arrow as well. There is no denying the time it takes to blow all 3 darts.
=> This one is disproved easily. Poison dart - splinters is much slower and not what I consider "spammable" and very often not all 3 darts will hit a target. A comparison with MM is not possible.
Now compare those to the Wizards single target abilities Wizard - Magic Missile - Charged Blast - 143% wpn dmg (Noting Special) - You're right on target here. Its a straight 143% and very very spammable. In face I venture to say the most spammable spell in D3 right now. If you assume that all 3 are the same casting time, I would seriously ask you to try all 3 spells again. At the very least you have to concede that Magic Missile - Charged Blast is at LEAST twice as fast as Poison dart - splinters.
For the second comparison, you have to take into account the differences of the spells, resource regen, weapon speed and passives used. Its a whole package. You cannot and I truly believe that you CANNOT do a direct spell vs spell comparison. The playstyle and over all dmg includes all abilities and Passives chosen.
Wizard if using Meteor and maxing dmg would probably take the passives:
- Conflaguration adds 10% to all dmg taken for 3 sec
- Glass Cannon - all dmg +15%, -10% Armor & Resists
WD if taking Zombie Bears and maxing dmg might take:
- Pierce the Veil - + 15% dmg, +30% all mana costs
Demon Hunter using Cluster Arrow might use:
- Archery - +15% increase dmg (assuming its a bow)
The Wizard is the only class with a Time Warp spell effect or Stretch Time spell effect. Both would significantly increase a wizard's damage output and provide survivability.
In Hell and beyond, there is no way a single class will fall to just 1 spell. Its a combination of spells and effects. So your constant spell by spell comparison is really illogical to me. If you wanted to do that then every single spell for each class should act the exact same way, only with different graphics. But Blizzard has crafted the spells/abilities for each class to include subtle differences with effects like DOT, Pierce, casting delay etc. I think a direct one on one class/spell comparison focusing only on highest dps is very short sighted.
PS. Not saying you shouldn't do such a comparison but you need to provide a more in depth analysis listing out assumptions and constants etc. Otherwise... like I said, very short sighted and illogical to me. Right now all your arguments just feel like a knee jerk and poorly thought out reaction.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Glass Cannon is being used by the OP as a class concept. You referred to the passive also called Glass Cannon. They have no relation whatsoever.
I can't find it anywhere in the current site nor do I remember any press release about the Wizard being a glass cannon. Is this glass cannon concept of a wizard simply you're interpretation of how a wizard should be?
If you're projecting Diablo 2 classes into Diablo 3 then this whole argument is pointless. The Barbarian and Wizard are making a come back but that in no way implies they should play the same way they did in D2.
In every piece of fiction, the wizard/mage/sorcerer class has its own interpretation of how the class should work. Even in 4th edition D&D, the Wizard is not a Striker, it is a controller class, meaning it does not do the most damage. Just because you have pre-conceived notions of a class does not make it so.
I'll admit that no one questioned this because in many fiction works/worlds, the wizard is portrayed as a glass cannon. But there are equally as many works where the Wizard is a melee fighter with spells or some variation.
Class balance was never never never never the concern when creating class abilities. Its the whole reason they chose not to do do ranked PvP. And PvP when it was there was group PvP. That allowed for crazy ideas to abilities, some of which we now have.
If you look at the Wizard vs DH and look at all the skills and passives, the Wizard has a much better bursty dmg ability and utility. Here's the kind of comparison that I think we need to make if we want to complain about the class being under/over powered.
If you complain about this wizard example using so many slot abilities/passives to achieve this, then realise that this comparison is ONLY to calc the max possible damage as far as I can tell from the OP and I didn't choose the spells. Also, there were no other skills I cound find that would add damage to the spell for 1 round, where as the wizard had more than enough to fill all 6 slots.
Which only proves that a spell vs spell comparison between classes that were not meant to be balanced is illogical.
------------------------------------------------------
Assumption: All the damage happens in 1 round (ie. Only 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs not included)
Assumption: 1 dmg spell was cast, Buffs already pre-cast
Assumption: Ignoring all Resource Regen
Assumption: Both using a weapon with the same weapon speed
------------------------------------------------------
Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow: 115%+35% = 150%
(I am adding all DOT damage into 1 round)
(I have no idea how to calc for pierce and I have seen no math telling me exactly how to do this)
Marked for Death: Marks an enemy for the next 30sec dealing 12% additional damage
Archery - Bow: 15% increased damage
Steady Aim: 20% increased damage if no mobs in 10 yards
So in 1 Round with Hungering Arrow-Cinder Arrow, a demon hunter can do 197% Damage.
- If using Bows
- If no mobs in 10 yards
- Every 30 secs, Marked for Death is recast
Cull the Weak - If mobs is slowed do 15% more damage
This was the only other ability/passive I could find to potentially increase Hungering Arrow's damage.
Although I don't profess to be an expert on DH's abilties.
-------------------------------------------------------
Magic Missile-Charged Blast: 143% Arcane Damage
Familiar-Sparkflint : Adds 32% dmg for 120 secs
Magic Weapon-Force Weapon: Adds 15% dmg for 120 secs
Glass Cannon-15% to all damage
So in 1 Round with Magic Missile-Charged Blast, a wizard can do 205% Damage
- Every 120 secs, Familiar+Magic Weapon is recast
Also this will apply this (62%) to every single damage spell for the wizard
Slow time-Time Warp: Adds 20% more damage for 8 secs if caught in the Time Warp
Mirror Image-Mirror Mimics: Potentially adds 10% dmg
Archon-Improved Archon: In terms of burst damage, this supposedly adds 1250% dmg for 15secs
These 3 abilities can also be added to increase that 1 round of damage. Mirror Image as far as I know is not 100% guranteed damage, Slow time has a 20sec cooldown but it is consistent, and Archon has a super high cooldown but again, 1250% damage?!? Holy hell, Wrath of the Bezerker for the Barbarian might be a counterpart but I'm pretty sure the DH has no such equivlent.
-------------------------------------------------------
- Generates 3 Hatred 115% Dmg & 35% Pierce
- Please explain how you arrive at 230%-300% with the runes. I have no idea how you are calculating the Pierce effect.
- Also important to note, If you compare casting time of a Magic Missile vs a Hungering Arrow, Magic Missile wins. You can literally spam MM much faster than you can Hungering Arrow. I have no idea how to calculate this but the difference is noticible.
=> Unless you can provide a formula for calculating Pierce, and compensate for the slight slowness of Hungering Arrow, your comparison is not apples vs apples.
Witch Doctor - Poison dart - splinters - 180% wpn dmg (Very efficient with low overkill, as the other darts will fly past the mob if he dies from the 1st one or 2.)
- You do ralize that moving targets are a problem with this spell right? I've had many many instances when the first dart hits but because the monster was moving the other 2 darts miss.
- Again, Poison dart - splinters is very slow compared with Magic Missile. Much slower than Hungering Arrow as well. There is no denying the time it takes to blow all 3 darts.
=> This one is disproved easily. Poison dart - splinters is much slower and not what I consider "spammable" and very often not all 3 darts will hit a target. A comparison with MM is not possible.
Now compare those to the Wizards single target abilities
Wizard - Magic Missile - Charged Blast - 143% wpn dmg (Noting Special)
- You're right on target here. Its a straight 143% and very very spammable. In face I venture to say the most spammable spell in D3 right now. If you assume that all 3 are the same casting time, I would seriously ask you to try all 3 spells again. At the very least you have to concede that Magic Missile - Charged Blast is at LEAST twice as fast as Poison dart - splinters.
For the second comparison, you have to take into account the differences of the spells, resource regen, weapon speed and passives used. Its a whole package. You cannot and I truly believe that you CANNOT do a direct spell vs spell comparison. The playstyle and over all dmg includes all abilities and Passives chosen.
Wizard if using Meteor and maxing dmg would probably take the passives:
- Conflaguration adds 10% to all dmg taken for 3 sec
- Glass Cannon - all dmg +15%, -10% Armor & Resists
WD if taking Zombie Bears and maxing dmg might take:
- Pierce the Veil - + 15% dmg, +30% all mana costs
Demon Hunter using Cluster Arrow might use:
- Archery - +15% increase dmg (assuming its a bow)
The Wizard is the only class with a Time Warp spell effect or Stretch Time spell effect. Both would significantly increase a wizard's damage output and provide survivability.
In Hell and beyond, there is no way a single class will fall to just 1 spell. Its a combination of spells and effects. So your constant spell by spell comparison is really illogical to me. If you wanted to do that then every single spell for each class should act the exact same way, only with different graphics. But Blizzard has crafted the spells/abilities for each class to include subtle differences with effects like DOT, Pierce, casting delay etc. I think a direct one on one class/spell comparison focusing only on highest dps is very short sighted.
PS. Not saying you shouldn't do such a comparison but you need to provide a more in depth analysis listing out assumptions and constants etc. Otherwise... like I said, very short sighted and illogical to me. Right now all your arguments just feel like a knee jerk and poorly thought out reaction.