Now THAT is a glass cannon, hell they even practically just come out and say it in the video.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
It takes an equally geared wizard 25% longer to kill the Skeleton king than any other class in patch 15!
As said by Blizzard, the game is currently under heavy balance (since it's always the last thing to do). Facts like these aren't particularly useful at this time.
Of course they are useful. Because its proof the class is undertuned atm. It may change in patch 16, sure. If it does, I will examine it again.
-I agree Wizard on paper looks weak. Wizard do, however, have superior crowd control and armor abilities than the other range classes which are in the comparison. The Wizard is not supposed to be a glass cannon - not neccesarily at least.
- The Hungering Arrow calculation is by the way way off. The arrow will have an average of ~225% weapon damage. This have however not always been the case. Just a few patches ago hungering arrow did 85% weapon dmd instead of 115%. Blizzard are doing their best covering ground.
- Nothing is final - I do however enjoy theory crafting such as this.
- Saying hungering arrow is better than arcane bolt is like saying hydra is better than turret. The comparison is weak.
Hydra is better than turret, just like Hungering arrow is way way better than magic missile. Its not rocket science, 143 < 230.
PS: How are the calculations way off for hungering arrow again? Seem fine to me, and your number only differs by 5%.
The 300% calculation on Hungering Arrow is calculated on nothing but assumptions (assuming the arrow will split a certain way, assuming they will be guided, assuming that they will always hit three targets etc).
And if Hydra is better than Turret, why weren't this comparison in the original post? Wouldn't it be relevant to present fact promoting the Wizard as well?
This comparison is by the way, as good as my former one in a thread which also received a LOT of hate and accused me of trolling:
Wrath of the Berserker - 50 fury cost - lasts 15 seconds
45% ias
20% dodge
20% movement speed
10% crit
So Shadow Power requires 66% of all discpline, lasts for half the duration of Wrath of the Berserker and is worse in every possible way.
Berserker requires 50% of all fury and is better in every aspect.
Sure, fury is also required for barbarian offensive spells (while demon hunter has hatred), but I still find it oddly unbalanced on paper.
Spells will remain unbalanced to eachother. I've accepted it (that does, however, not make me convinced the final characters will be any more unbalanced). He who lives shall see if the classes are terribly broken or viable. The Wizard is obviously not broken in late game. She is being tried out at Blizzard HQ as we speak atm. Yet, they did not patch her.
Maybe because hydra and turret don't make a good comparison.
Wrath of the berserker is a 2 min cooldown, and shadow power doesn't even give IAS anymore.
The barb and the DH use completely different types of resource mechanics, not so for the WD/Wiz/DH.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
My thoughts exactly. Its so easy to play the game in your head and predict the value of skills.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I make simulators, while people like you twiddle your thumbs and ask how to plug in values.
I am telling you, that you don't need a simulator. This is not WoW, the game style is very different. You can simply look at flat %dmg, and how long they can sustain that dmg. And you do not need a simulator to do that...
Hell even in WoW, its usually that simple as well. The simulators just confirm what we suspect. Especially for casters, that is stupidly easy. The simulators are more for the stats, than the rotation or priority.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
DH casts hungering arrow, units get close, has to vault away, attack again, run a little, etc.
Wiz casts frost nova and spams magic missile.
Their weapon damage % is not the only thing that matters. This thread is useless.
Dont bother engaging the troll
Stop calling me a troll just because you are incapable of doing theorycrafting.
Thats not my fault, go up stairs and blame your mom and dad.
You ARE a troll. All you post is whiny complaints.
Even your name itself is a direct TROLL. It'd be like someone naming themself Antidemocrat, antiblack, antijew....
That doesn't make me a troll. Maybe a pessimist.
And I hate republicans, which is why I chose this name a long time ago. I am also anti-religion.
But, I don't consider either of those opinions trolling, as I don't discuss them here.
It is just who I am!
You are merely calling me a troll based on nothing more than the fact you don't like my opinions. That is not the definition of trolling, and certainly not a valid reason.
In fact, it is people like you who are actually trolling, because you keep personally attacking me for my opinions. You continue to make vulgar comments and flame me in a this thread, instead of voicing a legitimate opinion regarding the subject matter. That is the definition of trolling sir.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
DH casts hungering arrow, units get close, has to vault away, attack again, run a little, etc.
Wiz casts frost nova and spams magic missile.
Their weapon damage % is not the only thing that matters. This thread is useless.
Dont bother engaging the troll
Stop calling me a troll just because you are incapable of doing theorycrafting.
Thats not my fault, go up stairs and blame your mom and dad.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
DH casts hungering arrow, units get close, has to vault away, attack again, run a little, etc.
Wiz casts frost nova and spams magic missile.
Their weapon damage % is not the only thing that matters. This thread is useless.
No making up horseshit examples is what is stupid.
DH could have caltrops at his feet, just like the WI could frost nova.
DH could have to use vault, and the WI could use Teleport.
Lets compare apples to apples if we are making BS examples.
Even if he did waste 1 GCD to move defensively! Its only 1 GCD, then he is back at it again, thats not enough to merit an attack that does damn near half the dmg.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-I agree Wizard on paper looks weak. Wizard do, however, have superior crowd control and armor abilities than the other range classes which are in the comparison. The Wizard is not supposed to be a glass cannon - not neccesarily at least.
- The Hungering Arrow calculation is by the way way off. The arrow will have an average of ~225% weapon damage. This have however not always been the case. Just a few patches ago hungering arrow did 85% weapon dmd instead of 115%. Blizzard are doing their best covering ground.
- Nothing is final - I do however enjoy theory crafting such as this.
- Saying hungering arrow is better than arcane bolt is like saying hydra is better than turret. The comparison is weak.
Hydra is better than turret, just like Hungering arrow is way way better than magic missile. Its not rocket science, 143 < 230.
PS: How are the calculations way off for hungering arrow again? Seem fine to me, and your number only differs by 5%.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
This is an joke, you're ignoring resource costs, how the resource behave and the AoE/range of skills.
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
Now consider generators. The Wizard has to use a rune to get resources, and its a laughable amount often times like +1 or +2. The DH gets from 3-8 depending on which spell/rune.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
3 zombie bears?!? He could cast like 9 with some decent gear!
The ability to front load that much dmg is insanely good, and he can still cast cheap spells like splinters.
If you want to compare DPS between skills of different classes, you gotta make a time similation including resource costs and regen. the fatc is, Wizard's can use his spenders muc more frequently then other classes can use theirs.
also the reason why Wiz takes 20% more time to kill leoric is because you're using Arcane Orb, an spell that is not quite good to kill bosses. Do it with ray of frost, you will see you will get even faster times then other classes.
Simulators would work best, but its not the only way. You can use simplified versions of a simulator to get good ideas about where things stand. This game is nowhere near as complicated as WoW.
I was working on a wizard simulator til they started changing things way too much for me to bother updating it a long time ago. I will likely fix it back up later.
The Wizard can't use his spenders much more frequently. Thats just flat out false. It would be very dependent on gear and spec, and even then I would argue that it would likely favor the DH and WD. For example, the elemental arrow on the DH can be casted and casted near indefinitely. Hell, there is a whole DH thread dedicated to making builds without using generators at all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
How does a link to splinters prove or disprove anything? I already corrected the OP.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
If you don't want this thread closed then stay on topic and be polite to one another.
Thank you.
I changed the thread title, maybe that will help.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
yet another complaint thread/post from Antirepublican. The quality of writing and consistent negative/bashing content are becoming tiresome.
Why is it all these halfwits come and tell you how much they disapprove of peoples thread's for? Do you guys actually think we care? Is your mommy not giving you enough attention? Whats the problem here?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
yet another complaint thread/post from Antirepublican. The quality of writing and consistent negative/bashing content are becoming tiresome.
Why is it all these halfwits come and tell you how much they disapprove of peoples thread's for? Do you guys actually think we care? Is your mommy not giving you enough attention? Whats the problem here?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
hey look, 180% spinters with a link to actual proof!
youve provided jack shit, further showing your just a troll.
180, 210, who gives a shit? Its larger than 143, and thats the point.
Come back with real evidence, not a typo, or don't come back at all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I'd like to point out that in a game like Diablo a class is definitely not solely measured on their ability to frontload damage. Diablo is also about survivability. The Wizard has a ridiculous amount of CC, slowing power, and otherwise ability to avoid getting hit. Compare that to a class like Barbarian or Monk, who are forced to stand in the pack to deal damage and you'll find that Wizards can run circles around a pack picking them off one by one.
There's more to a class than damage.
Also it's beta. At level 13. That's like (for those of you who've played WoW) complaining that their level 10 priest does crappy damage compared to a level 10 hunter.
I certainly agree with that. Although, front loading dmg is very important as well especially to a glass cannon. Which is kind of my point. She isn't a glass cannon anymore, as she has so many defensive spells like energy armor that offer her the ability to take some hits.
She has evolved into a CC caster with mediocre dmg that just plays keep away, but thats not the wizard we were told about, and it would blow at higher difficulties. We were told about a glass cannon that does massive aoe dmg.
Its beta sure, but its not likely we can't see all the skills/runes. They might change slightly sure, but if that happens I will re-evaluate my stance on the issues, as I always do. Atm, the wizard is not the king of AoE nor a glass cannon.
As things stand right now, the Demon Hunter is the true glass cannon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Epicurus
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ApgJ-dzzZXc
Now THAT is a glass cannon, hell they even practically just come out and say it in the video.
Epicurus
Maybe because hydra and turret don't make a good comparison.
Wrath of the berserker is a 2 min cooldown, and shadow power doesn't even give IAS anymore.
The barb and the DH use completely different types of resource mechanics, not so for the WD/Wiz/DH.
Epicurus
My thoughts exactly. Its so easy to play the game in your head and predict the value of skills.
Epicurus
I make simulators, while people like you twiddle your thumbs and ask how to plug in values.
I am telling you, that you don't need a simulator. This is not WoW, the game style is very different. You can simply look at flat %dmg, and how long they can sustain that dmg. And you do not need a simulator to do that...
Hell even in WoW, its usually that simple as well. The simulators just confirm what we suspect. Especially for casters, that is stupidly easy. The simulators are more for the stats, than the rotation or priority.
Epicurus
And I hate republicans, which is why I chose this name a long time ago. I am also anti-religion.
But, I don't consider either of those opinions trolling, as I don't discuss them here.
It is just who I am!
You are merely calling me a troll based on nothing more than the fact you don't like my opinions. That is not the definition of trolling, and certainly not a valid reason.
In fact, it is people like you who are actually trolling, because you keep personally attacking me for my opinions. You continue to make vulgar comments and flame me in a this thread, instead of voicing a legitimate opinion regarding the subject matter. That is the definition of trolling sir.
Epicurus
Stop calling me a troll just because you are incapable of doing theorycrafting.
Thats not my fault, go up stairs and blame your mom and dad.
Epicurus
No making up horseshit examples is what is stupid.
DH could have caltrops at his feet, just like the WI could frost nova.
DH could have to use vault, and the WI could use Teleport.
Lets compare apples to apples if we are making BS examples.
Even if he did waste 1 GCD to move defensively! Its only 1 GCD, then he is back at it again, thats not enough to merit an attack that does damn near half the dmg.
Epicurus
Hydra is better than turret, just like Hungering arrow is way way better than magic missile. Its not rocket science, 143 < 230.
PS: How are the calculations way off for hungering arrow again? Seem fine to me, and your number only differs by 5%.
Epicurus
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
Now consider generators. The Wizard has to use a rune to get resources, and its a laughable amount often times like +1 or +2. The DH gets from 3-8 depending on which spell/rune.
3 zombie bears?!? He could cast like 9 with some decent gear!
The ability to front load that much dmg is insanely good, and he can still cast cheap spells like splinters.
c =(1000-20*1.5)/(140-20*1.5) = 8.88 casts
Thats without any mana return skills as well.
Simulators would work best, but its not the only way. You can use simplified versions of a simulator to get good ideas about where things stand. This game is nowhere near as complicated as WoW.
I was working on a wizard simulator til they started changing things way too much for me to bother updating it a long time ago. I will likely fix it back up later.
The Wizard can't use his spenders much more frequently. Thats just flat out false. It would be very dependent on gear and spec, and even then I would argue that it would likely favor the DH and WD. For example, the elemental arrow on the DH can be casted and casted near indefinitely. Hell, there is a whole DH thread dedicated to making builds without using generators at all.
Epicurus
Epicurus
Thank you.
I changed the thread title, maybe that will help.
Epicurus
Epicurus
Epicurus
180, 210, who gives a shit? Its larger than 143, and thats the point.
Come back with real evidence, not a typo, or don't come back at all.
Epicurus
She has evolved into a CC caster with mediocre dmg that just plays keep away, but thats not the wizard we were told about, and it would blow at higher difficulties. We were told about a glass cannon that does massive aoe dmg.
Its beta sure, but its not likely we can't see all the skills/runes. They might change slightly sure, but if that happens I will re-evaluate my stance on the issues, as I always do. Atm, the wizard is not the king of AoE nor a glass cannon.
As things stand right now, the Demon Hunter is the true glass cannon.
Epicurus