I'm assuming Carrion Swarm = Locust Swarm for the rest of us.
"Haunt is great skill" - Yes it is. It's fun and such. But it's far inferior to LS. That was my point. And as you said yourself, there is no real tactical advantage to having both (due to mana issues).
"it deals more damage per mana then any spender skill WD have" - So very far from the truth. If we stay away from theoretical scenarios where a new mob shows up just as the previous one died, thus giving infinite dmg. 1 LS will hit between 5-50 mobs (yes 50, my mighty blow record with LS is 87, Barracks act 3 NM) all depending on which area you are in and which mobs you are killing. And I usually don't cast it when there is less then 5 mobs around (cept for packs), as it's quite costly. Haunt will usually hit MAX 2 mobs for full effect I find (act 1 inferno) before it either fails to jump to another mob (is it just me or does it jump worse the LS?) or the mobs are dead.
"Haunt is cheap" - Half the price of a LS which deals between 2-20 times the dmg I wouldn't call that cheap.
"and its duration is big" - A bit to big imo ('cept with the rune), giving to little dmg/sec compared to it's mana cost.
"Also, Haunt is free if you use the mana return rune" - That's what I was hoping this rune would do. So I could replace my primary attack with Haunt and just use this, but that doesn't really work. As usually mobs tend to die too fast to give the mana cost back. The second issue is, that in the time I run around w8ing for my Haunt to tick, I could have just kited and thrown some Jar or Dart for the same dmg, without risking my mana in the process.
Haunt needs tweaking. I'm not saying it's a crappy skill. I'm saying that LS > Haunt, and there is no real room in your 6 skill slots to have both. That's my main gripe about Haunt. I want to use it... but the theorycrafter in me won't allow it ^^
It's not far inferior to LS. Also Haunt is not secondary skill. You can easily fit something like Splitters, LS and Haunt or Splitters, Direbats and Haunt. But you can't fit Splitters, Direbats and Locust Swarm. Because LS cannibalizes the mana of other secondary skills !
Forget about thrash mobs. Your secondary skills (Zombie Bears, Dire Dats, Acid Cloud) can easily alone take care of those. Haunt is not meant to be used against thrash mobs, it's strict anti-pack and boss dps booster. Haunt damage / cost ratio is 5.8 while LS damage/cost ratio is 1.8, the very ratio of Dire Bats ! It means if you try to cast LC and use Direbats you have absolutly no DPS increment in the long run (think about 1+ minutes fights were your mana allways is drained up) because the mana used to cast LC could be used to cast Direbat and the damage would be execly the same.
But if you use Haunt you have a effect DPS increment because of the high damage / cost ratio. Mathematicaly Haunt adds value to your mana bar while LC don't. by giving alot of damage and asking little mana.
For the WD, the DPS of skill doesn't matter much. Damage / Cost ratios are far more important.
"Also, Haunt is free if you use the mana return rune" - That's what I was hoping this rune would do. So I could replace my primary attack with Haunt and just use this, but that doesn't really work. As usually mobs tend to die too fast to give the mana cost back. The second issue is, that in the time I run around w8ing for my Haunt to tick, I could have just kited and thrown some Jar or Dart for the same dmg, without risking my mana in the process.
Ok by this setence i see you don't understand how Haunt works. Haunt is not meant to be used in your first buttom as free spell, and it's not meant to be used in your second bottom as your primary damage spell. Haunt is a marginal DPS booster like Hydra, Companion, Sentry and damage buffs such as Magic Weapon. LC doesn't belong to this cathegory because it's damage/cost ratio is the same of an common attack skill, meaning it will only cannibilize resourses.
Try this: Kill Belial (inferno) using LS + mana spender skill you like. Then try killing Belial using Haunt + mana spender skill you like. You will see the boss will die 20%~40% times faster with Haunt.
Mana: At this point after playing a monk fully through inferno and a wizard into hell (I actually play and not farm Leorics manor for each difficulty). Resource management on those classes just feels so much more natural. Diablo 2 felt like resource spending game, Diablo 3 feels like resource generation game. This point has been argued so heavily that if Blizzard doesn't make some kind of change -- whether it be in skill mana adjustment or a buff elsewhere -- I'd say it's clear that they don't play WD nearly as much as Barbarian (which seems to be the most well thought-out.
QFT. The mana resource system needs a complete overhaul. We can burn our mana in 4-5 sec and have to 20-40 sec for it to regen. No other class has that huge a difference between spending and earning resources. Sure all classes could burn their full resource even quicker, but they can also regen them in a few seconds.
Summon Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 14 seconds.
Hex - Angry Chicken rune's cooldown has been reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. In addition, the skill now knockbacks nearby enemies with the explosion.
Hex - Hedge Magic rune now heals for 5% of the players max HP instead of 1861 HP. In addition, the skill now heals nearby allies as well instead of choosing the one with least HP.
Big Bad Voodoo - Rain Dance rune will now regenerate 20% of the players maximum resource per second. In addition, the skill now affects allies as well.
Zombie Handler will now have an additional effect. One pet will survive from fatal damage and heal themselfs to 50% HP. This effect cannot happen more than once per 120 seconds. The skill is global among all pets meaning if a dog uses the skill, gargantuan needs to wait 120 seconds.
While under the effects of Spirit Vessel, the player can move through units like in Spirit Walk.
-Summon Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 14 seconds. -Zombie Handler will now have an additional effect. One pet will survive from fatal damage and heal themselfs to 50% HP. This effect cannot happen more than once per 120 seconds. The skill is global among all pets meaning if a dog uses the skill, gargantuan needs to wait 120 seconds.
Make a mix out of these two and you might be on to something. Use the second effect, but allow it to proc at something like once every 20 sec for dogs. Keep the CD for dogs at 60sec. And just make the Garg more robust, as he can't tank more then 1 target at the time anyway.
-Hex - Angry Chicken rune's cooldown has been reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. In addition, the skill now knockbacks nearby enemies with the explosion.
I thought it already did a knockback???
-Hex - Hedge Magic rune now heals for 5% of the players max HP instead of 1861 HP. In addition, the skill now heals nearby allies as well instead of choosing the one with least HP.
ALL the heals should work in a % manner (with a minimum fixed value). Not just the WD ones. I think the Monks would agree.
-Big Bad Voodoo - Rain Dance rune will now regenerate 20% of the players maximum resource per second. In addition, the skill now affects allies as well.
I like it. And sure it might sound OP, but remember, that fetish circle isn't that big, how often can a group of 4 gather up and stand in place for 20 sec ^^
-While under the effects of Spirit Vessel, the player can move through units like in Spirit Walk.
I think they fixed/or was about to fix this as well.
Firebomb - base damage increased to 100% (which is still the lowest damage of the WD's primaries). Additionally, all "repeat" runes such as Roll the Bones and Flash Fire can hit the same enemies repeatedly.
Locust Swarm - Base range tripled. The speed of the cloud reduced by 50% every original length (not sure what it was).
Fire Bats - Range doubled. Fire bats spreads out so that it does less damage the farther away the enemy is. Dire bats range not changed.
Hehe, you might wanna rethink that bouncing on the same target for Flash Fire. You are saying that you want it do do 100% + 85% + 70% + 65% + 50% + 35% = 405% dmg / cast ^^?
I have 0 problems hitting with Locust Swarm.
I wouldn't mind having the non-Dire bat runes reach a little further. That's the main reason everyone runs ONLY Dire bat runes in a VQ spec.
Something I would really love to see changed, is Haunt. Atm there is 0 incentive to use this skill at the higher lvls due to 3 things:
It's mana cost is just to friggin' high.
It doesn't jump between targets nearly as good a Locust Swarm does.
Is inferior to Locust Swarm in almost every way, so if we just have 1 slot left for an extra spell we pick Swarm over Haunt.
One of the most fun times I had on my WD was at the low lvls just having gotten 2 sec duration Haunt, which was still fairly cheap in mana at those lvls. So I used that INSTEAD of my primary (was kick ass fun) and used Locust Swarm as my secondary ^^!
Sadly, even with maxed out mana regen gear this is just not possible at the higher lvls UNLESS you use a VQ spec, and since you are using 2 attack spells that forces you to keep the rest of your abilities on constant CD... I don't know about you, but I like to keep my Spirit walk handy while playing HC Inferno
Ohhhh and the BIG P.S. Blizzard you fixed the issue with dots not scaling with crits, can you plz fix it so that they scale with attackspeed so I can actually use my class specific items instead of walking around with my big phat pole-arm >.<?
I"m currently farming Act 3 and i use Haunt in my spec. Haunt is great skill vc. packs. You can cast it from a safe distance and it deals more damage per mana then any spender skill WD have (meaning it won't canniblize mana of spenders skills).
The differences between Carrion Swarm and Haunt are huge. CS is pretty mana intensive and have decent DPS, meaning it does really works like a secondary skill such as acid cloud, zombie chargers and firebats. I can't picture an WD using an primary ability, a secondary one AND CS.
Haunt is cheap and its duration is big, meaning you don't need to recast it very often. Haunt is sustanaible damage skill. It more or less fits the role of Hydra and Damage buffs - an situational damage buff meant to make you bit stronger vs. elites. Also, Haunt is free if you use the mana return rune, despite the number of targets available. They could definetly buff other runes though
if I'm building a tank, why would I need the tankiest pets? Wouldn't I want damage pets? Or, if the only way to make them viable is to be a tank already, then again, what's the point?
I agree with everything you said except this.
Zombie Dogs, especially, is categorized as a "defensive" ability. And it's plenty clear that both Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan are supposed to give the DK a measure of control. They absolutely must scale with defensive stats (and I believe they already do). If you want to build a tank witch doctor then you'll probably not want to take pets. It's really not going to change much.
I just don't see a logical way to make pets scale on the opposite role you take. That's a ton of work for very little reward.
The issue with WD pets scaling with defensive stats, is that it's counter-productive for a defensive ability meant to keep enemies from attacking you in a build where you would be gearing for defensive stats. They either need to be able to effectively do damage in tank build, or effectively tank for a decent amount of time in an offensive build. Therefore they need to scale defensively with offensive stats, or offensively with defensive stats. Otherwise they'll only be effective in higher gear levels where you already have high amounts of both offensive and defensive stats.
IMO the Garg should be effectively as hard to kill as a decently geared Templar, even with low levels of defensive stats, and ZDs should be able to survive a decent amount of hits, longer with leeching beasts. Obviously this would be with pet/defensive-based passives. Also, pets should have the ability to taunt, or at least cause high amounts of threat so that enemies won't just run past them and attack the WD.
Easy way to do that imo is scaling their life with the WDs Int, and increase the amount of resists they get from the WDs resists, etc.
I'm not even going to bother to point out the 10+ reasons that your proposition is ineffective and accomplishes nothing aside from your insistance on forcing Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan to work with a niche spec like a tankdoctor. I assure you that you have not thought this through to see the absolutely glaring holes in what you're saying, though.
What you are doing is taking abilities which were clearly designed for defense/control and tailoring them to a very niche playstyle, and that's akin to me complaining that Horrify doesn't have enough of a direct offensive use (like 50% weapon damage) which makes it useless for my spec. Abilities do NOT need to by hybridized like that. We take abilities like Horrify and Mass Confusion and Hex because they primarily provide control. The idea that every ability should be both offensive and defensive absolutely negates the choices we're supposed to be making. The point of the matter is that if you don't need control then you don't need Horrify.
Abilities are supposed to have roles they fill. The goal of making a good spec is (in theory) supposed to be finding the proper synergy between your abilities and your playstyle. What you are doing is saying that you want Zombie Dogs to be viable in every single spec out there which is no more logical than me saying that Poison Darts has to be viable in every single spec out there. The bottom line is that they aren't and that they shouldn't be. If you need more offense in your tank build you probably should pick an offensive ability.
I don't see what's so damned complicated about that. All you have is a solution looking for a problem.
Hats off.
The whole argument: why should i grab defensive gear for pets since i'm becoming the tank myself? It's simple. WD can't tank shit and will never tank shit unless ridicolously overgeread. We don't have 50% armor and resist buffs, we don't have huge healing abilities.
Pets are the way WD can work towards a tanky build. WD's cant reach 13k armor and 1.5k all resistances like wizards, barbs and monks but they can creat bodies to tank damage for him. What about damage ? The very fact that you don't need to kite all the freaking time is already a huge damage booster. Barbs face roll act 3 with only 20k DPS while WD can't kill belial before the enrage timer with that damage.
Character who can hold ground can do the same damage having more then half the DPS of kiter. Just pick a kiter build. Calculate the amount of time you pass running proportionaly to the leght of the fight. Thats the amount of DPS an chaarcter who can hold still have compared to a kiter but it's not counted on the DPS statistic.
Ex: if you pass 80% of your time running and have 40k DPS someone who doesn't run at all during the fight can kill as fast as you do with only 5k DPS.
Scale pets with player's int/vit and all is solved on that part. This goes for the monk summon as well.
I"m hoping for more creative solutions. I will be really disapointed if any glass cannon WD can just throw summons in the build and it works out all pretty and well.
Summon changes i want:
* 50% free damage reduction against ranged attacks.
* Immunity to AoE that pets naturaly do not avoid such as arcane sentry and plagued pools.
* Zombie Handler gives additionally a armor and all resists buffs to pet. Maybe +50%.
* Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 30~45 seconds.
* Remake Fiercy Loyalt. Pets scaling HP regen and thorns should be default in first place, not a passive effect. Fiercy Loyalt should be: enemies damaged by zombie dogs and gargantua takes additional 10~20% damage. Lasts 3 seconds.
Maybe not even this would solve all pet's problem but it's a nice start.
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"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
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It's not far inferior to LS. Also Haunt is not secondary skill. You can easily fit something like Splitters, LS and Haunt or Splitters, Direbats and Haunt. But you can't fit Splitters, Direbats and Locust Swarm. Because LS cannibalizes the mana of other secondary skills !
Forget about thrash mobs. Your secondary skills (Zombie Bears, Dire Dats, Acid Cloud) can easily alone take care of those. Haunt is not meant to be used against thrash mobs, it's strict anti-pack and boss dps booster. Haunt damage / cost ratio is 5.8 while LS damage/cost ratio is 1.8, the very ratio of Dire Bats ! It means if you try to cast LC and use Direbats you have absolutly no DPS increment in the long run (think about 1+ minutes fights were your mana allways is drained up) because the mana used to cast LC could be used to cast Direbat and the damage would be execly the same.
But if you use Haunt you have a effect DPS increment because of the high damage / cost ratio. Mathematicaly Haunt adds value to your mana bar while LC don't. by giving alot of damage and asking little mana.
For the WD, the DPS of skill doesn't matter much. Damage / Cost ratios are far more important.
Ok by this setence i see you don't understand how Haunt works. Haunt is not meant to be used in your first buttom as free spell, and it's not meant to be used in your second bottom as your primary damage spell. Haunt is a marginal DPS booster like Hydra, Companion, Sentry and damage buffs such as Magic Weapon. LC doesn't belong to this cathegory because it's damage/cost ratio is the same of an common attack skill, meaning it will only cannibilize resourses.
Try this: Kill Belial (inferno) using LS + mana spender skill you like. Then try killing Belial using Haunt + mana spender skill you like. You will see the boss will die 20%~40% times faster with Haunt.
I"m currently farming Act 3 and i use Haunt in my spec. Haunt is great skill vc. packs. You can cast it from a safe distance and it deals more damage per mana then any spender skill WD have (meaning it won't canniblize mana of spenders skills).
The differences between Carrion Swarm and Haunt are huge. CS is pretty mana intensive and have decent DPS, meaning it does really works like a secondary skill such as acid cloud, zombie chargers and firebats. I can't picture an WD using an primary ability, a secondary one AND CS.
Haunt is cheap and its duration is big, meaning you don't need to recast it very often. Haunt is sustanaible damage skill. It more or less fits the role of Hydra and Damage buffs - an situational damage buff meant to make you bit stronger vs. elites. Also, Haunt is free if you use the mana return rune, despite the number of targets available. They could definetly buff other runes though
Hats off.
The whole argument: why should i grab defensive gear for pets since i'm becoming the tank myself? It's simple. WD can't tank shit and will never tank shit unless ridicolously overgeread. We don't have 50% armor and resist buffs, we don't have huge healing abilities.
Pets are the way WD can work towards a tanky build. WD's cant reach 13k armor and 1.5k all resistances like wizards, barbs and monks but they can creat bodies to tank damage for him. What about damage ? The very fact that you don't need to kite all the freaking time is already a huge damage booster. Barbs face roll act 3 with only 20k DPS while WD can't kill belial before the enrage timer with that damage.
Character who can hold ground can do the same damage having more then half the DPS of kiter. Just pick a kiter build. Calculate the amount of time you pass running proportionaly to the leght of the fight. Thats the amount of DPS an chaarcter who can hold still have compared to a kiter but it's not counted on the DPS statistic.
Ex: if you pass 80% of your time running and have 40k DPS someone who doesn't run at all during the fight can kill as fast as you do with only 5k DPS.
I"m hoping for more creative solutions. I will be really disapointed if any glass cannon WD can just throw summons in the build and it works out all pretty and well.
Summon changes i want:
* 50% free damage reduction against ranged attacks.
* Immunity to AoE that pets naturaly do not avoid such as arcane sentry and plagued pools.
* Zombie Handler gives additionally a armor and all resists buffs to pet. Maybe +50%.
* Zombie Dogs cooldown reduced to 30~45 seconds.
* Remake Fiercy Loyalt. Pets scaling HP regen and thorns should be default in first place, not a passive effect. Fiercy Loyalt should be: enemies damaged by zombie dogs and gargantua takes additional 10~20% damage. Lasts 3 seconds.
Maybe not even this would solve all pet's problem but it's a nice start.