DiabloFans

Keep going thread. You are almost at a two year life span.

yes, this has to be the longest running thread in the D3 forums. I started this thread over a year ago.

So I had another post saying other stuff on why I believe what I believe but I have decided to ask you if you would just like to agree to disagree on this situation. We obviously both strongly feel the way we do on this subject and no amount of discussion back and forth will change this. So I respect your opinion on the matter and call to an end to this debate (at least on my thread, others are free to discuss the matter further elsewhere).

Quote from Nekrodrac

I said it- your similarities are weak. Yep they are. The only comparable one I see is mass confusion. Horrify is different from Necro's terrify. Go watch the gameplay if you are unsure. And also your similarities are extremely broad. If I begin to break them down one by one, I can predict with 100% certainty that you would have said I am being nit picky about the details. Seriously- zombie wall is the same as bone wall but with damage.
How about shit like- bash is the same as firebomb except you need to be close.
I told you- you are embarrassing yourself.
You would have had better luck with the druid really.

My similarities are not broad. I have given you specific reasons to how each skill is similar to each other. If you cannot see how a bone wall which prevents further movement and a zombie wall which prevents further movement are not the same then there is no way I can continue this. One just attacks now. Isn't is possible that if they added the necro then they could have just added some damage to the bonewall. The only other skill similar to is the flame wall but it does not prevent movement which is the key aspect of both of the skills. Please be nit picky and "tear" apart the other 10 skills I have commented on. With bash and firebomb, you are only comparing damage spell to damage spell, and not taking into consideration play style of these skills. I have with all of mine. I did not compare fire skull to teeth as ranged damaging attacks. I compared game mechanics and abilities of one skill to another.

The reason why I was comparing the necro with others is to show you how easy it was to make those 'supposed' links that you worked hard to imagine. But of course you failed to see the point.

Again showing more comparisons only furthers your cause of the need to add him. Also, my comparison to the WD is much more in depth and has many more examples then any of yours. You have only compared to archetypes/styles where I have given depth and reasoning.

Now tell me, which part of blizz's ranting on how they were working on the WD and still leaving place for the Nekro, did not get into your head?
And which part where they said that the 2 classes were not alike didn't you understand?

There was no rant. There was one interview with one employee over a year and a half ago about the difference and ability to add. Things have changed greatly since then. I also understand he can be added, just that he shouldn't.

Like I said if Necro returns he won't be exactly like in D2. And 'almost perfect' doesn't mean he cannot be modified. Just cannot be improved significantly. But who cares if thousands are able to have fun playing with him?

this is exactly my point. If they add him it is not for gameplay but audience approval. To me this is not what should be done. Many people want D3 to be just like D2 but it shouldn't. New game = new characters.

A third of the skills? Lol. Ill just assume you got all of them nailed down just for the sake of showing you something.
If you are having trouble with the maths, I'll do this complex bit of calculation for you- that leaves 2/3 of skills for WD... Imagine that...?

A 1/3 is a lot to have in common when they are striving for each character's uniqueness. Name any other characters who have 1/3 of their skills in common with another amongst the D3 characters. Remember, we are not comparing D2 and D3. Also, do not forget the two core mechanics of each class being similar. This is important to the decision of including him. They will not have two archers, two casters, two tanks, two agile melee. They want uniqueness and so do I.

Supposing they are feeling damn lazy with the necro and supposing they'll be bringing him back, they could actually leave 2/3 of him INTACT!!! But then again that's blizz we are talking about, they'll revamp the char, I am pretty sure of it and with your level of imagination Scyber I am sure you can see a dozen variations and possibilities for each of the Necro's skill.

This cannot be used as an argument because Blizzard said that they do not want to change him, not me.

Too complex to understand maybe?

I understand everything you are saying.

Your feeble comparisons are a complete fail. Neither me nor blizz sees the point that you are desperately trying to make because you do not want to see the necro in D3.

My comparisons are only feeble because you call them that. You have not proven in anyway how they are feeble in context of this debate. You merely say they are and that no further explanation is needed or warranted. I could do the same for yours but I prefer facts and ideas. As for Blizzard, they do see this and that is why they are not adding him initially. Please do not turn the "if we want to, he is different ENOUGH" as "he is nothing like the WD and will be in D3" statement so many have taken it for. I am not saying that the Necro will not be in D3, just that I do not want him to be and for these reasons.

I am not saying that there are not similarities between the Necro and other characters. Yes both the necro and the barb have buff/debuff skills. However, you only mentioned 4 skills of that skill type and the one about ranged attacks. I compared 11 skills all that are the same going beyond one skill type and taking some form all three trees of both classes.

As for the poison comment, Blizzard has said that they plan on having each element only covered by one character. The fire damage of the Wizard in two skills is the only exception to this. As far as exploding palm, the actual damage in not fire, it is holy/magic.

As far as being closed minded, I have changed my thought on a lot of subjects which is why I said not to refer to the OP because my thoughts have changed so much. Most of your reasonings to disagree with me are ideas form the OP and not any post that I have made recently. Your main rebuttal to a recent post was my archetype skills debate in which you proved me wrong. In which case, I noted 11 specific skills that are the same. People disagreed with me about teh old look of both characters and so I have dropped this reasoning. I am open to any thoughts and discussion but I have been able to prove counterpoints to any argument so far. Most people have said there are similarities between all classes but few have tried to show the distinction between the Necro and the WD which is my concern. I admit there are similarities between all of the classes but the Necro and WD just share so much more.

As for the many different reasons why they should not add the necro, that just strengthens my own opinion I why they should not and not a fault in my reasoning. Having multiple reasoning for the same idea strengthens that fact not weakens it. Many different ideas are also used for the equaling amount of ideas to say otherwise.

Lastly, Blizzard said that the main reason why they chose not to add the Necro initially is that they only wanted to add old characters if they could change it enough to be new like the Barb. They said that the necro was practically perfect and they would not want to change him, if/when they do add him.


If you can disprove the similarities between the necro and the WD, I ask you to show me. However, saying the necro is the same as other attributes of other classes does not disprove the WD-necro connection. I have given ample proof with 11/30 skills being the same and two core mechanics (not just summon and buff/debuff generics) on how they are the same. Blizzard has stated the element uniqueness per character. Blizzard has stated they would not change him if added.

If you can explain how a third of their skills being the same and two of their mechanics being the same (excluding the poison elemental damage) being the same is different enough to include him then please do so. Just do not defend the fact by showing even more commonalities of the necro class with others further discouraging reason to have him.

okay, let's put the old guy thing aside.

Skills - yes, a lot of characters have skills that act similar but...

Let's start with the big ones. First is the undead concept. Any specific skills aside, both characters have skills dealing with the raising of the undead. One has skeletons while the other has zombies. Yes, those are different but they are both undead creatures. Name any other diablo character who deals in the resurrection of the undead. Second is poison. Again, any specific skills aside, both classes deal with poison. Blizzard has said they want each character to be very unique on skill sets. Two classes with poison does not agree with this. No other class has overlapping damage types (other than the wizard's 1-2 fire skills).

Now on with the specifics

Necro - bonewall
WD - Wall of zombies
The wall of zombies is simply an upgrade to bonewall with the addition of damage. No other class has this type of ability.

Necro - Summon skeleton
WD - summon zombie dog.
Both raise the undead to fight along with you.


Necro - skeleton mastery
WD - Ferocity
Both increase the life/dmg of your zombies/skeletons

Necro - Poison explosion
WD - Spider corpse
Both release a poisonous attack form a dead corpse

Necro - terror
WD - horrify
Both cause your enemy to flee

Necro - life tap
WD - Soul harvest
Bot hsteal life from attacked enemies, the only difference is that soul harvest is an active damaging skill with the life tap

Necro - amplify dmg
WD - Spirit sense
Both are skills to increase damage inflicted upon monsters

Necro - Confuse
WD - Mass confusion
Both cause the enemy to attack themselves

Necro - Bone spirit
WD - Haunt
Both send out a projectile that finds its target. no need to aim.

Necro - corpse explosion
WD - Sacrifice
Both cause a target to explode causing addition damage. The difference is corpse or own pets but no other class has a skill to select a target to explode for additional damage.

Necro - bone prison
WD - Grasp of the dead
Both hold an enemy in place


Ok, that is 11 direct skills above the fact that the two classes share two similar core mechanics. Not to mention other similarities like poison nova to acid cloud (both poison AoE) or golems to gargantuan (both tank type summons) and the necro's curses to the WD' hexes. While other classes may have single target projectiles, AoE, summons, or debuuf/buff skills, The similarities are obvious. They have over a third of the same skills as well as two of the same core mechanics. Blizzard said they want each character to be unique, how is a third of their skills the same with two core mechanics different enough to make them unique. I am not saying they won't play differently but they are very similar.
Also, please stop referring to my first post, it was made almost a year ago and I have admitted to the changes. If you would like to read some posts on better ideas please feel free to read the rest of this thread.

First off, I made this thread almost a year ago. Secondly, I mainly made it for a.) to stir up conversation during a activity lull, b.) as a rebuttal to everyone saying that the Necro has to be in D3 (which I still don't believe nor want).

Anyway...

Looking at the characters from a game developers point-of-view, the characters have more in common then they don't and not just because they are summoning/pet classes.

1. Look wise - regardless of how old the necro actually is, he looks old. From a game designer stand point, an old character is an old character. He is not a young girl, muscular man, average joe, he looks like an old man. The WD is an old man. Blizzard has stated they want each character to look and be unique. One old character is enough.

2. Game mechanics - first the obvious, yes they are both summoners/pet classes. One change has been made, the summons of the WD seem to be more like the summons of the druid rather than the army of the necro. However, both have poison and poison skills. both have summons. the bone wall and zombie wall are very similar from a game designer view. a lot of the WD's fire skills act similar to the necro's bone skills (single target projectile, multiple target projectile).

Again, I have nothing against the Necro, he was my second favorite class after the druid. I just do not want old characters back in the new game. The necro would need some major changes to be different enough to be in the game but at the same time, Blizzard said that they do not want to change him.

My WD name is going to be IMANECRO. just kidding. it will be scyber or scyberdragon just like every other character i create.

I can't let it go the same way you can't let go the fact that the WD=Necro or that he will not return in D3.

Surely in a expansion

Jay wilson has said "Our approach for classes in 'Diablo III' is that we don't have a strong desire to bring back classes from the previous game," .

If the Devs are mad about the class decisions and they decided to build the WD to leave room for the Necro, wouldn't that kinda register to you that they might just happen to want to bring back the Necro

yea it leaves open the possibility but

"Our approach for classes in 'Diablo III' is that we don't have a strong desire to bring back classes from the previous game," . "The goal is to try and give people new gameplay and not just re-hash old gameplay. We're not just making a 'Diablo II' with updated 3D graphics." and "The problem was, we looked at the class and didn't think that we could really make him a lot better," he explained. "We could add some new stuff to him but for the most part -- curses, corpse explosion, skeleton pets -- done. That's the class. We wanted to create new gameplay, so we chose to do the Witch Doctor as a different kind of class."

speaks louder to me than one sentence saying the other stance. Like I said before IF they add the necro it will be for fan reasons not gameplay, which I believe is not a good reason to do so from a game dev stand point. Does any of this register to yuo or are you blinded by the necro's plae skin.:P

I saw R.I.P. necro. you have earned your rest SO TAKE IT.

I know that they may still put the necro into D3 with an expansion. And that they said he WAS DIFFERENT enough from the WD to play differently.I am not arguing that he wont be in it, I am not saying "The Necro will never be in D3". I had stated that same quote in my OP.I am just wondering why when you could be given soooo many new types of characters to play you want a 10yr old character that has similarities to another class.

If Jay had said that the WD was nothing like the necro, I wouldn't have a problem with it but he said"We are TRYING to design [the Witch Doctor] class so that IF we did bring back the Necromancer, there's room for him." That just doesn't justify it for me to include him and get rid of someone who could be potentially different and amazing.

As far as the necro being in an expansion Jay wilson has said "Our approach for classes in 'Diablo III' is that we don't have a strong desire to bring back classes from the previous game," . "The goal is to try and give people new gameplay and not just re-hash old gameplay. We're not just making a 'Diablo II' with updated 3D graphics." and "The problem was, we looked at the class and didn't think that we could really make him a lot better," he explained. "We could add some new stuff to him but for the most part -- curses, corpse explosion, skeleton pets -- done. That's the class. We wanted to create new gameplay, so we chose to do the Witch Doctor as a different kind of class."

of course he also siad "We're looking out ahead of time at what our expansions are going to be, so we've got to keep room open for some of those other classes down the road." but this could also mean the druid, assassin, amazon, pally.

Read this entire page, it speaks for itself what I have been trying to tell you for the last 2 days...

It dose speak for itself but it mentions more negative reasons than positive in your stance. Did YOU read the entire page? This is what I mean by the people who want necro can only focus on that instead of looking at D3 and the fact that it is a new game.

Well, I am speaking vaguely. In looking at what they could add and what would be necessary it is important to think of the characters vaguely. magic/melee/defense/summon/shape shifting/agile/ranged not to mention anything I can't think of. that is 343 combinations not including buffs since every class now has them mixed in and not including any other options of archetypes. If they add more classes i do not want them similar by any means.

But thats not what is writen in your OP..
You said they were too similar in lore, looks and gameplay and they aren't.

I never said lore wise they were the same. I had said lore wise the D2 necro would be too old. I did like Bartrex idea of it being a different necro.
I still say looks they are similar, old, too weak physically to fight themselves and both are "darker" characters. Yes the necro deals with bones/black/has hair/and pale while the WD is feather/colorful/bald/"tan" but look at them compared to the other classes. not a huge overbearing barb. not a small tiny girl.
I have mentioned many times the similarity in game play and wont rehash my thoughts. there are differences when looking at detail but not as an overall archetype.

You also said the similarities between the WD-Necro were greater then Wiz-Sorc and thats not true.

I did say this and still maintain my opinion on it. but more importantly it was brought up becasue generally diablo fans say it ok to say wizard=sorceress but the notion that wd=necro is considered blasphemy. IMO the only reason for this is die hard necro fans who fear change and want the ten yr old char brought back becasue they loved him so much the first time. I feel people who hold this opinion are focusing more on the necro and the new WD instead of a new Diablo game. People need to llok at the grand scheme of the game and not focus on such small details.
barb=barb
wizard=sorceress
WD=necro
new ranged melee=amazon
? who knows what the fifth class is but many can assume it will be similar to a D2 class.
these archetypes are classic and persists through the games. just new takes on them.
If there was a character you hated in D2 and the brought them back with slight variances would you feel the same? or were you mad that none of the first chars from D1 didnt make it into D2 (the original D1 chars at least).

New game should = new char
I still say I dont even want the barb back, I would rather have some other take on a massive melee char.
Don't get me wrong, I love the WD just I loved the Necro, IMO i am ok playing the WD as his replacement. A new take on a similar archetype. I love pet classes and the WD will be the first class I play. I just want NEW and VARIETY.

There was an interview with jay wilson where he had said they brought back the barb because they were able to improve him. He had also said that the necro was practically perfect and there is no real reason to bring him back if they can't change/improve him.
If you would like I can take the time to find the vid and get a direct quote but this is what was basically said. This interview was done after the initially release where he had said they left room IF they decided to bring him back and IMO he might have just said they are able to just to not upset any fans right off the bat.

well, i assume that the few skills they have shown are a good variety of the types of skills to come. as far as the trees goes. it is hard to directly compare with d2 because a lot of their trees focused on buffs of some sort where d3 has them mixed in.

sorry about the absence of the druid and assassin i was typing on my iphone when it closed out and i had to retype and i forgot but i have added them now.

Not only that, you are suggesting that since they are so similar, Blizzard shouldn't even bother to implement one of the funnest Diablo classes every created? The Necromancer has been voted the most popular D2 class ever made, and even many Bliz devs themselves share this love

I realize this that is why i said if they add him it will be for the fans