I think if you have really high % life leach, and really slow attack speed, but with really high damage, then %leach beats LOH, you keep factoring in DPS,
but your not factoring in hits per second, just my 2 cents.
also we havent gone into the max life % leach you can get.
Uhh... yeah we are. At least in the posts I made earlier in the thread, hits per second is very much factored in. And max life leach has also been mentioned in the thread.
And yeah with extremely slow attack speed, life leach will of course overtake LoH much faster. I don't really think that's an effective way to play though.
I know this is a DH, but do note that he isn't using Sharpshooter and still pulls of 181k spreadsheet dps with a 20% dmg buff and 50% crit dmg, easily negated by MoC Overawe and Breath of Life. The gear he has equipped is "glasscannon" DH gear, but can be rolled with more vita and defensive stats. Yes, we're talking extremely rare gear with very high stat rolls, but we're talking at least 160k spreadsheet dps. Cyclone also scales with crit, so the better gear you have, the more effective the rune gets.
It would probably be possible to do all the math and calculate what gear would be required for a certain dps, but 500k can easily be pulled off without perfect gear.
Contradiction much? Watching the video made me lose 3 minutes of my life...
Okay, extreme was an exaggeration, sorry. Look at Athenes gear. That's far, far from perfect. He has 181k dps. Yes, this is easily pulled off when you start getting high-end items.
Maybe for a DH it is, I dunno. Hardly for a monk.
And you have to keep in mind that for a life steal build to have any meaning, you need to be able to survive several hits. Anything else would obviously be pointless.
Well, as I showed above, 500k dps and 6% life steal still isn't enough to beat 2000 LoH. As the game looks right now, I don't see those numbers being even close to achievable. It'll require game changes (or extreme glasscannon builds that can't use the life steal anyway). Maybe if they overbuff the new legendaries or decide to nerf the LoH coefficients.
Let's put in some raw numbers here and not estimates.
Fists of Thunder has a 15% hidden attack speed modifier, this has been proven. So if we say we have 1.5 attacks per second, we have an actual attack speed of 1.725.
LoH modifiers for Fists of Thunder with Thunderclap is 150%/150%/75%, with 1600 Life on Hit this would be 2400/2400/1200. Avaraged out we get 2000 life per hit. With an attack speed of 1.725, that's 3450 life per second.
There you go, cold hard proof. Of course, increasing attack speed would increase this value.
You're way off on that 15% hidden attack speed modifier. It's much higher. Check out http://blackrabbit29...tor-attack.html, or try it yourself in game.
Using a 1.5 base speed you also heavily favor life steal over LoH.
Adding some examples. This is assuming single target, 2.0 attack speed, FoT - thunderclap. For the life steal portion, attack speed or choice of primary attack doesn't matter.
500 LoH - 1720 hp back every second
1000 LoH - 3440 hp back every second
1500 LoH - 5160 hp back every second
2000 LoH - 6880 hp back every second
3% life steal, 100k dps - 600 hp back every second
6% life steal, 100k dps - 1200 hp back every second
3% life steal, 200k dps - 1200 hp back every second
6% life steal, 200k dps - 2400 hp back every second
3% life steal, 300k dps - 1800 hp back every second
6% life steal, 300k dps - 3600 hp back every second
6% life steal, 500k dps - 6000 hp back every second
Even 500k dps isn't enough to beat out LoH when you're using FoT - thunderclap.
On the account of LoH vs Life Steal, 800 LoH that you listed gave an effective healing of 1200, correct? Now, double that for 2400. 300k as I said is 3600, so already that's a 50% increase.
1280, but I'd like to expand on that because the number I calculated just seems a lot lower than what I'm experiencing in game. I got 900 LoH and 2.0 attack speed, and I feel I get back 2-3k hp every second against a single target enemy. Let's see if I can explain that.
I've found two extra factors to take into account: 1) FoT attacks much faster than the character sheet says, various sources I've seen say between 40-55%. Let's call it 50%. 2) It also seems like with the thunderclap rune, the aoe part contributes healing for 2/3 hits even against single target.
I'm gonna use my own character for reference. As I said, 900 LoH. According to http://i.imgur.com/rpqd2.jpg, I get 375% of my LoH from a complete 3-hit sequence. Next question is, how long does it take me to perform a 3-hit sequence? Tests in-game show that I do ~55 3-hit sequences in 60 seconds, meaning in a second I perform 0.92 of a sequence.
0.92 x 375 = 344% (this is how much out of my LoH I receive per second)
3.44 x 900 = 3096 (this is how much out of my 900 LoH I receive per second)
So that's 3096 life per second with my 900 LoH, which fits my earlier 2-3k estimate very well. It only gets this high with FoT - thunderclap though. Other attacks/runes will yield lower numbers. But then again, other attacks/runes will do lower dps, meaning they're worse for life steal as well.
That, at least, is a number you don't even come close to with your 300k dps and 3% life steal.
Short version: The 1280 number I calculated earlier is way off when you use FoT - Thunderclap. With 900 LoH and ~2 attack speed, you'll get back around 3k life per second.
Anyway, if you can get away with using MoC in act 3 without sacrificing any dmg, I think your gear is at a point where it can't be increased to do 2-3x more.
I'd also like to add something else. You brought up the number 3600 healing per second with two 3% life steal weapons. In that situation we have to compare it to at the very least 1600 LoH (and maybe even 2k+). In that case we end up with roughly 300k dps required just to equal the LoH option. How much more would be required to "break the game"?
What are your dmg stats? And are you farming act 1 with 48% dmg taken MoC?
I find it rather hard to believe you can pull off 140k dps (unless it's with MoC) and still have room to double or tripple that (without going complete glasscannon obviously).
Act 2, 1967 dex, 24.5% crit, 206% crit damage, 1.87/1.74 attack speed, total of 36k dps with Breath of Heaven. And of course I am farming with MoC - Overawe, that's beside the point anyway. We're talking about how effective Life Steal can be, and I'm pointing out that it can give some massive healing if you have really good gear, and that's what Blizzard said. When you have imba gear, Life Steal will be like breaking the game.
I disagree, that's a very important point. Act 1 is a joke, to the point where you don't even need LoH (or life steal) to do well. Any discussion around LoH and life steal has to take place in environments where it matters (meaning later acts when you can't just focus on dmg).
What are your dmg stats? And are you farming act 1 with 48% dmg taken MoC?
I find it rather hard to believe you can pull off 140k dps (unless it's with MoC) and still have room to double or tripple that (without going complete glasscannon obviously).
the reason it can end up good though is life steal is all damage, so if you're standing in the middle of 20 mobs with sweeping winds hitting them all (and possibly cyclones if you're running that rune) that 240hp becomes 4800hp per tick of sweeping winds, and that's before you start punching things.
Yeah... that math isn't even remotely correct. The 240 hp number was based off his 40k crits, not sweeping winds ticks.
It's really very simple. Let's say you have an attack speed of 2.0, and can output 100k dps (real total dps, not what's shown in char tab).
Scenario 1: 800 LoH. Let's say you get 80% of that (varies a bit depending on what primary skill you use for attacks). That's 640 twice every second, meaning a total of 1280 every second. (In reality it's even more, because most primary skills attack faster than what the char screen says).
Scenario 2: 3% life steal. You only get 20% of this, meaning 0.6%. With an output of 100k dps, you'll be healing 600 every second.
So even with those numbers, you'd have to do more than 200k dps to break even with LoH. The only ones that can do 200k dps are pure glasscannons, and they get oneshot anyway so they got no use for lifesteal. And keep in mind the LoH numbers are low compared to what we see in game. I'm personally running with ~2 attack speed and 900 LoH, and I would estimate I get back 2-3k every second against single target.
The thing that you aren't accounting for is that we don't do exactly 100k dps, we have abilities that modify this damage aswell as passive AoE damage. Just Sweeping Wind is 20%*1.24 AoE dps, not counting Cyclones, that's 250 hp per target hit. Also, Fists of Thunder hits for 110% weapon damage +35% for your target + every mob around it.
You can't just claim that LoH > Lifesteal by math when you only account for spreadsheet DPS. LoH is very powerful, but you have to constantly hit your target for it to work. Lifesteal scales better with damage and will in the end outperform LoH, that's what I believe.
I don't really see your point. I estimate I do about 70k dps on my average geared monk. If I stand still and just tank an elite mob with 3 mil hp, it takes me something like 40-50 seconds to kill it. Well geared monks can certainly reach 100k dps output (and more).
I don't know why you're listing dmg from specific skills or anything of the kind. I was very specific in my post that I'm talking about real dps, and not what's shown in character screen.
The fact that life steal scales better than LoH is obvious. But we can't reach the kind of dps numbers required for life steal to overtake LoH.
the reason it can end up good though is life steal is all damage, so if you're standing in the middle of 20 mobs with sweeping winds hitting them all (and possibly cyclones if you're running that rune) that 240hp becomes 4800hp per tick of sweeping winds, and that's before you start punching things.
Yeah... that math isn't even remotely correct. The 240 hp number was based off his 40k crits, not sweeping winds ticks.
It's really very simple. Let's say you have an attack speed of 2.0, and can output 100k dps (real total dps, not what's shown in char tab).
Scenario 1: 800 LoH. Let's say you get 80% of that (varies a bit depending on what primary skill you use for attacks). That's 640 twice every second, meaning a total of 1280 every second. (In reality it's even more, because most primary skills attack faster than what the char screen says).
Scenario 2: 3% life steal. You only get 20% of this, meaning 0.6%. With an output of 100k dps, you'll be healing 600 every second.
So even with those numbers, you'd have to do more than 200k dps to break even with LoH. The only ones that can do 200k dps are pure glasscannons, and they get oneshot anyway so they got no use for lifesteal. And keep in mind the LoH numbers are low compared to what we see in game. I'm personally running with ~2 attack speed and 900 LoH, and I would estimate I get back 2-3k every second against single target.
Didn't blizz say they want LoH to get high enough for players so they can feel like they've broken the game?
Close, but no. They want Lifesteal (%Damage to Life) to be broken.
Yeah. I don't see how that's ever gonna happen though, unless they make some major changes. The 80% penalty is just too big, and I doubt it'll ever be overcome
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And yeah with extremely slow attack speed, life leach will of course overtake LoH much faster. I don't really think that's an effective way to play though.
And you have to keep in mind that for a life steal build to have any meaning, you need to be able to survive several hits. Anything else would obviously be pointless.
Using a 1.5 base speed you also heavily favor life steal over LoH.
500 LoH - 1720 hp back every second
1000 LoH - 3440 hp back every second
1500 LoH - 5160 hp back every second
2000 LoH - 6880 hp back every second
3% life steal, 100k dps - 600 hp back every second
6% life steal, 100k dps - 1200 hp back every second
3% life steal, 200k dps - 1200 hp back every second
6% life steal, 200k dps - 2400 hp back every second
3% life steal, 300k dps - 1800 hp back every second
6% life steal, 300k dps - 3600 hp back every second
6% life steal, 500k dps - 6000 hp back every second
Even 500k dps isn't enough to beat out LoH when you're using FoT - thunderclap.
1280, but I'd like to expand on that because the number I calculated just seems a lot lower than what I'm experiencing in game. I got 900 LoH and 2.0 attack speed, and I feel I get back 2-3k hp every second against a single target enemy. Let's see if I can explain that.
I've found two extra factors to take into account: 1) FoT attacks much faster than the character sheet says, various sources I've seen say between 40-55%. Let's call it 50%. 2) It also seems like with the thunderclap rune, the aoe part contributes healing for 2/3 hits even against single target.
I'm gonna use my own character for reference. As I said, 900 LoH. According to http://i.imgur.com/rpqd2.jpg, I get 375% of my LoH from a complete 3-hit sequence. Next question is, how long does it take me to perform a 3-hit sequence? Tests in-game show that I do ~55 3-hit sequences in 60 seconds, meaning in a second I perform 0.92 of a sequence.
0.92 x 375 = 344% (this is how much out of my LoH I receive per second)
3.44 x 900 = 3096 (this is how much out of my 900 LoH I receive per second)
So that's 3096 life per second with my 900 LoH, which fits my earlier 2-3k estimate very well. It only gets this high with FoT - thunderclap though. Other attacks/runes will yield lower numbers. But then again, other attacks/runes will do lower dps, meaning they're worse for life steal as well.
That, at least, is a number you don't even come close to with your 300k dps and 3% life steal.
Short version: The 1280 number I calculated earlier is way off when you use FoT - Thunderclap. With 900 LoH and ~2 attack speed, you'll get back around 3k life per second.
Anyway, if you can get away with using MoC in act 3 without sacrificing any dmg, I think your gear is at a point where it can't be increased to do 2-3x more.
I'd also like to add something else. You brought up the number 3600 healing per second with two 3% life steal weapons. In that situation we have to compare it to at the very least 1600 LoH (and maybe even 2k+). In that case we end up with roughly 300k dps required just to equal the LoH option. How much more would be required to "break the game"?
I find it rather hard to believe you can pull off 140k dps (unless it's with MoC) and still have room to double or tripple that (without going complete glasscannon obviously).
I don't really see your point. I estimate I do about 70k dps on my average geared monk. If I stand still and just tank an elite mob with 3 mil hp, it takes me something like 40-50 seconds to kill it. Well geared monks can certainly reach 100k dps output (and more).
I don't know why you're listing dmg from specific skills or anything of the kind. I was very specific in my post that I'm talking about real dps, and not what's shown in character screen.
The fact that life steal scales better than LoH is obvious. But we can't reach the kind of dps numbers required for life steal to overtake LoH.
Yeah... that math isn't even remotely correct. The 240 hp number was based off his 40k crits, not sweeping winds ticks.
It's really very simple. Let's say you have an attack speed of 2.0, and can output 100k dps (real total dps, not what's shown in char tab).
Scenario 1: 800 LoH. Let's say you get 80% of that (varies a bit depending on what primary skill you use for attacks). That's 640 twice every second, meaning a total of 1280 every second. (In reality it's even more, because most primary skills attack faster than what the char screen says).
Scenario 2: 3% life steal. You only get 20% of this, meaning 0.6%. With an output of 100k dps, you'll be healing 600 every second.
So even with those numbers, you'd have to do more than 200k dps to break even with LoH. The only ones that can do 200k dps are pure glasscannons, and they get oneshot anyway so they got no use for lifesteal. And keep in mind the LoH numbers are low compared to what we see in game. I'm personally running with ~2 attack speed and 900 LoH, and I would estimate I get back 2-3k every second against single target.