Everyone would agree that there is no point having breath of heaven if you can just spam the mantra of healing for half the price and gives almost the same amount of healing. There is definetly going to be cooldowns on stuff and it is not implemented yet. If you check the video from blizzard where they say that we are gonna die, if you check carefully, i recall seeing a cooldown on wave of light in that video. And btw, no wonder that guy dies in inferno whit the shitty build he had... Don't tell me that this guy was a pro... He had like 7SS, WOL and BOH in the same build. No sane person would ever go for such a heavy spirit spender build.
This may be a bit of a digression from the topic but not totally because it does have a lot to do with the play style of a conversationalist. I did a little experiment to test the viability of spamming the 3 second bonus of mantras. The cost of mantras is the same but I used the evasion mantra. What I did was only use the combo attacks to make an offensive push while trying to keep the 3 second bonus of the mantra going.When using different generators in the combo the spirit generation was optimal but I still managed to keep the mantra going almost all the time. When I only used exploding palm as the generator I managed to keep the mantra-bonus going all the time AND at the same time slowly saved up enough spirit to fill the reservoir.
How many of you think you will incorporate a play style like this into your build. For the build I'm thinking about I think I will try to keep the mantra-bonus going as long as possible, especially the evasion-bonus right after I cast cyclone strike.
For build where spirit generators play a key role in your offense I think maintaining the bonus during the toughest part of battles is going to be really advantageous.
I think that there will definetly be a cooldown on mantras upon game release. Take for example the bonus from "mantra of healing", it heals as much as a unruned "breath of heaven" over 3 sec but for half the cost. Also, if you where using the indigo rune on this same mantra, you could basically keep up the shield going almost forever. I really doubt that there won't be any cooldowns on mantras.
Found it. I am thinking of going to two generators but I really do not know exactly what I want or where to go with it. Input would be lovely honestly.
- You got one nice synergy: "Mantra of evasion" indigo with "sixth sense. Also, if you dual-wield, this would also synergize well thanks to the 10% increased dodge chance.
- I would prefer obsidian over indigo for "crippling wave". But, if you could successfully use it to kite and keep your distance while generating spirit, it could be interesting.
- I would never go for "near death experience" without "exalted soul. Since you get 35% spirit back from NDE, exalted soul makes it more effective giving you a 35 extra spirit (87.5 instead or 52.5) when you get back from the dead. This can come handy if you where already in a troublesome situation. You probably should drop NDE for "seize the initiative". You will most likely boost up your dexterity as much as you can (extra dodge) and try to improve your crit chance to a maximum (sixth sense).
- I really like "serenity even if it is on a 45sec cooldown and the alabaster rune will most likely be deadly if you pull out a lot of mobs with cyclone strike just before so that you take a hard beat.
Need to wait and see how "cyclone strike" will work out with "breath of heaven" following since it is spirit consuming. When you get short on spirit after usin CS-BOH combo and serenity is on cd, you will be down to using only "crippling wave" which could end up being troublesome. The "mystic allie" as no synergies, it's not bad at all but it could be replaced for something else if needed but i do think that this will definetly come handy in hell mode. I recall playing a javazon in D2 and i could not really go on without a valkirie allie in early nightmare and hell runs. I guess this allie might prove to be very usefull in D3 as well.
Maybe this could be some good survival build while still integrating CS into it. Just toying around but it definetly seems ok if you can be carefull with Cs and not over use it.
The synergy between the obsidian mystic allie and the indigo mantra of healing. It gives a good boost to your shield. And the passives are also great for survival.
Looks like a strong build. Draw them in with cs, get exploding palm on a few enemies and then blow them back into the crowd to explode with lashing tail-kick.
I would disagree with a few choices made.
1. Mantra of healing has to be my least favorite mantra. I healing power will just have a dampening effect of the damage taken but not a very big one. I think mantra of evasion will end up reducing more damage especially for strong units where they might be doing over 500 dmg per strike. Although the indigo rune and obsidian (+30% vitality!!!!) are actually good defensive choices, giving you time to breath. I feel mantra of conviction with a alabaster rune should give you at least some defensive stats while giving a damage boost that I feel will balance out this build better, because of the generators you chose wont be giving you the greatest dps. I think It's just that I feel mantra of healing isn't all that great.
2. Near death experience passive is something I would only use in hardcore where you will be super careful about what enemies you aggro. In normal play I would prefer a passive that is helping me out most (if not all) of the time. The passives that are activated under specific rare situations feel like a waste to me. Specifically for your build I think I would put one with everything or resolve. If you had resolve with the conviction (alabaster) mantra your crippling strikes would be all the more crippling.
Mantra of evasion would also be probably really good if runed with obsidian since it as a great synergy with "seize the initiative" passive. Then you could swap around 'mystic allie" with something else. That's a good point. And yes mantra of conviction with alabaster is a really good one also. I still think that mantra of healing is quite nice also. If you think about it, when activated, it heals as much as breath of heaven (without rune) after 3 sec. All this will need testing to see what would definetly be best but they are 3 very nice options.
Maybe this could be some good survival build while still integrating CS into it. Just toying around but it definetly seems ok if you can be carefull with Cs and not over use it.
The synergy between the obsidian mystic allie and the indigo mantra of healing. It gives a good boost to your shield. And the passives are also great for survival.
There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.
Compressing the enemies is going to so helpful in maximizing the damage of my crippling wave and exploding palm generators. You are always gambling with getting overrun which means you need to planning your moves in advance, know exactly how many enemies you ca successfully take on.
Game's not about damage it's about survival. None of us really know how hard this game will be but I have a strong feeling that it will require every type of class have to seriously take into account survival. The original point was not if Cyclone Strike is powerful. It was weighing the option of adding some different form of sustain that would do more for less. We understand the move is powerful and that pulling the enemies is a great idea but that leads to the processes of min-maxing stats to get damage. Impressive numbers mean one thing, but a good player survives to DPS another day.
Remember you don't do damage if you die my friend.
I would prefer having more utility as well. In no way was my intend to show that this build was o'mighty at all. The only thing i wanted to see is if it would be possible to achieve keeping up the buffs of spirit generators with a 4 gen build. And the what could possibly fit in as other abilities to fill in for the rest.
I have myself more preference over 2-3 generator builds as i think there is a lot more versatility to them. A 4 generator build gets you into a pattern which would be hard to get out and i don't think that it would be that viable in inferno because of this fact. I don't like CS for the same reason as guys don't like it, it will most likely get you into some hell one day or another. The way i would be using CS would probably be with lashing tail kick as it frees the space for you once you've pulled as i mentionned in one of my post. The crimson rune could definetly be a good one also but then, it turns holy damage into fire and damage will probably be mitigated furthermore.
Again, my purpose was not to find the optimal build but rather to check if it was possible at all to chain generators and keep the buffs going.
There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.
Compressing the enemies is going to so helpful in maximizing the damage of my crippling wave and exploding palm generators. You are always gambling with getting overrun which means you need to planning your moves in advance, know exactly how many enemies you ca successfully take on.
Someone who as mastered the game could possibly take advange of this and as you said, it helps for both exploding palm and crippling wave. I like builds which take some planning, they are the most interesting to play.
There is a downside about CS and i can see it too. On the other hand, don't you think that this pulling could be good if you were to know the distance perfectly and just pull what you wanna pull? If for exemple, there are a big pack of mobs, you can position yourself in such a way that CS cuts the pack in half or something so that you can get rid of this first half before the other half reaches you. For D3 newbies like us, CS could definetly in the beginning dig our grave, but once you have figured what 24 yards is, you could probably use this to your advantage.
I was trying to find the actual speed of those fury building attacks but just could'nt find them. The 0.75 attack/sec was for all 3 attacks from spirit generator. If you tell me that there is no way i can pull that much, i would definetly need to review my spread sheet and do some adjustments.
With the rotation i used, you can keep all buffs always active and you can do at least 4 cyclone strike in a 30 sec delay which basically means you generate more than 10 fury/sec and all this with 0.75 attacks per second.
Unless i am missing something, i don't see any advantage in using more than 4 fury generators. Another way around with 4 generators would be imho to drop mantra of conviction for mantra of healing and use wave of light instead of cyclone strike. Then, we don't really know for sure about mantras having some sort of cooldown and the possibility of reseting it for the activation bonus effect. Maybe it would be possible to use lashing tail kick in a 4 spirit generator build and use the extra spirit to reapply mantras for the activation bonus effect (Mantra of healing indigo seems nice). Tempest rush seems to me a bad choice because it is channeling and you would most likely loose your buff effects if you where to channel for too long. 7SS's as the same problem and cooldown seems too long to use in such a build because i think you would probably end up not being able to spend enough of fury.
Afterwards, it seems like it would be down to a 3 spirit generator build which would probably work great and there would probably be a lot of possible builds. Personnaly i think breath of heaven could work in a 4 spirit generator build but i just don't like the skill for the obvious reasons Tenhi stated in his last post. But maybe it could work just right, time will tell.
Actually i made a mistake with the dmg increase somewhere in my spread sheet and it would be a higher average damage increase (74%). Given this, damage would be higher accordingly. So this would make damage output approximately 20% better than what it is.
I simulated a rotation using all those skills while doing on average 2 attacks every 3 seconds (0.75 attack/sec). I know people will say that you deal more than that with weapons having like 1-1.4 attack/sec. On the other hand, this will only happen versus dummy and never on the field since there is always time losses. My main goal was to check out if rotations where fine and if there where any fury issues. The average results for buffs and debuffs (applied all the time and as AOE effect for debuffs) and damage output (over 30 secs.) are as follows :
Damage increase: 54% (This could actually be higher (maybe 65-70% or so) with better attack/sec ratio)
Damage reduction: 70% AOE
Attack speed reduction: 35% AOE
Movement reduction: 50% AOE
Healing during the 30 secs: 85408 HP
Single target physical damage: 3210% (includes bleeding damage)
AOE physical damage: 2847% (Includes vortex damage but not exploding damage from explosive palm)
AOE holy damage: 1783%
Single target bleeding damage: 1500%
AOE vortex damage: 1667%
The fury generation is a bit higher than the fury spent so that you could probably throw 1 more CS or reapply mantra more often for increased damage if you get higher attack/sec ratio.
I would have to compare this with a common 2 generator build to get a better output on the viability of such a build but it seems fair enough to me. Of course i could've made some math errors but it still gives a good idea.
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I think that there will definetly be a cooldown on mantras upon game release. Take for example the bonus from "mantra of healing", it heals as much as a unruned "breath of heaven" over 3 sec but for half the cost. Also, if you where using the indigo rune on this same mantra, you could basically keep up the shield going almost forever. I really doubt that there won't be any cooldowns on mantras.
- You got one nice synergy: "Mantra of evasion" indigo with "sixth sense. Also, if you dual-wield, this would also synergize well thanks to the 10% increased dodge chance.
- I would prefer obsidian over indigo for "crippling wave". But, if you could successfully use it to kite and keep your distance while generating spirit, it could be interesting.
- I would never go for "near death experience" without "exalted soul. Since you get 35% spirit back from NDE, exalted soul makes it more effective giving you a 35 extra spirit (87.5 instead or 52.5) when you get back from the dead. This can come handy if you where already in a troublesome situation. You probably should drop NDE for "seize the initiative". You will most likely boost up your dexterity as much as you can (extra dodge) and try to improve your crit chance to a maximum (sixth sense).
- I really like "serenity even if it is on a 45sec cooldown and the alabaster rune will most likely be deadly if you pull out a lot of mobs with cyclone strike just before so that you take a hard beat.
Need to wait and see how "cyclone strike" will work out with "breath of heaven" following since it is spirit consuming. When you get short on spirit after usin CS-BOH combo and serenity is on cd, you will be down to using only "crippling wave" which could end up being troublesome. The "mystic allie" as no synergies, it's not bad at all but it could be replaced for something else if needed but i do think that this will definetly come handy in hell mode. I recall playing a javazon in D2 and i could not really go on without a valkirie allie in early nightmare and hell runs. I guess this allie might prove to be very usefull in D3 as well.
Mantra of evasion would also be probably really good if runed with obsidian since it as a great synergy with "seize the initiative" passive. Then you could swap around 'mystic allie" with something else. That's a good point. And yes mantra of conviction with alabaster is a really good one also. I still think that mantra of healing is quite nice also. If you think about it, when activated, it heals as much as breath of heaven (without rune) after 3 sec. All this will need testing to see what would definetly be best but they are 3 very nice options.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#eUYWQg!dVX!cYaccY
The synergy between the obsidian mystic allie and the indigo mantra of healing. It gives a good boost to your shield. And the passives are also great for survival.
I have myself more preference over 2-3 generator builds as i think there is a lot more versatility to them. A 4 generator build gets you into a pattern which would be hard to get out and i don't think that it would be that viable in inferno because of this fact. I don't like CS for the same reason as guys don't like it, it will most likely get you into some hell one day or another. The way i would be using CS would probably be with lashing tail kick as it frees the space for you once you've pulled as i mentionned in one of my post. The crimson rune could definetly be a good one also but then, it turns holy damage into fire and damage will probably be mitigated furthermore.
Again, my purpose was not to find the optimal build but rather to check if it was possible at all to chain generators and keep the buffs going.
Someone who as mastered the game could possibly take advange of this and as you said, it helps for both exploding palm and crippling wave. I like builds which take some planning, they are the most interesting to play.
Unless i am missing something, i don't see any advantage in using more than 4 fury generators. Another way around with 4 generators would be imho to drop mantra of conviction for mantra of healing and use wave of light instead of cyclone strike. Then, we don't really know for sure about mantras having some sort of cooldown and the possibility of reseting it for the activation bonus effect. Maybe it would be possible to use lashing tail kick in a 4 spirit generator build and use the extra spirit to reapply mantras for the activation bonus effect (Mantra of healing indigo seems nice). Tempest rush seems to me a bad choice because it is channeling and you would most likely loose your buff effects if you where to channel for too long. 7SS's as the same problem and cooldown seems too long to use in such a build because i think you would probably end up not being able to spend enough of fury.
Afterwards, it seems like it would be down to a 3 spirit generator build which would probably work great and there would probably be a lot of possible builds. Personnaly i think breath of heaven could work in a 4 spirit generator build but i just don't like the skill for the obvious reasons Tenhi stated in his last post. But maybe it could work just right, time will tell.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#chUeRW!UWg!ZaZcac
I simulated a rotation using all those skills while doing on average 2 attacks every 3 seconds (0.75 attack/sec). I know people will say that you deal more than that with weapons having like 1-1.4 attack/sec. On the other hand, this will only happen versus dummy and never on the field since there is always time losses. My main goal was to check out if rotations where fine and if there where any fury issues. The average results for buffs and debuffs (applied all the time and as AOE effect for debuffs) and damage output (over 30 secs.) are as follows :
Damage increase: 54% (This could actually be higher (maybe 65-70% or so) with better attack/sec ratio)
Damage reduction: 70% AOE
Attack speed reduction: 35% AOE
Movement reduction: 50% AOE
Healing during the 30 secs: 85408 HP
Single target physical damage: 3210% (includes bleeding damage)
AOE physical damage: 2847% (Includes vortex damage but not exploding damage from explosive palm)
AOE holy damage: 1783%
Single target bleeding damage: 1500%
AOE vortex damage: 1667%
The fury generation is a bit higher than the fury spent so that you could probably throw 1 more CS or reapply mantra more often for increased damage if you get higher attack/sec ratio.
I would have to compare this with a common 2 generator build to get a better output on the viability of such a build but it seems fair enough to me. Of course i could've made some math errors but it still gives a good idea.