1. It would be 3000 times more frustrating. Start the game by reading through a list of 40 skills ? Start to play in group before even know what threat is ? Wipe your party 10 consecutives times and being kicked until you learn wtf is going on ?
Works fine in LoL.
Start the game not knowing what any of the other 50 champions do (and, yes, you do need to know this).
Play in a group before you know what last hitting is.
Die 300 times and be called "noob", "you suck", "uninstall game".
Dota, HoN and LoL are the definition noob hostility hehe
No.. It does not work fine. Imo those game are actually a exemple of how throwing the player in the multiplayer without any kinda of learning will NOT work.
It takes 3 days now because Blizz realized how stupid it was + most people are max level and are leveling alts + you know the game really well by now probably. In vanilla, it could take 3 months excluding exploits and the like.
In WoW vanilla i capped my first character in 30 days (around 100 hours if i'm not mistaken). It was considered extremely fast compered to other mmorpg of it's time (i took like 2 years to cap a RO character).
Get someone who never played an MMO in his life, power level him to 85, and see what happens.
Sorry, inexperienced players are lousy in games at level 1 and at level 85. If people at 85 can't even CC you really have no argument here that they learned anything.
Learn anything it's not the same as learn everything. A player that level they character normally will most of the time be better then a power leveled player. I had the worst experience with power leveled people in WoW.. they just enter your clan, show how it's impossible to even do heroics with him and then quit the game after ruin everyone's game a hunderd times.
Do they know everything they need? Or course not. But they learn alot... much better then someone that uses searing pain all the time w/o knowing that this skill have a very specific function.
WoW is a broken game, nothing ever works out in it.
]
Some works, others not. Imo Raiding works great if you have time and a clan to do it.
They're excluded anyway. Either you have the WoTLK situation (everyone can do everything) or you have the Cata situation (game requires a tiny bit of skill). Blizz needs to decide where their game should go. On a personal level, though, I don't see why people bad at raids should be doing final raids instead of doing introductory raids or heroics or normals or w/e is appropriate.
Exclude potential and even good players just because they didn't played in the begnning of the expansion is ridicolous.
And the best raid time was in the end of TBC when attunaments where no longer needed. We just throwed one or two noobs in the raid and in time they learned how to play. Better then refusing someone just because most clans don't wanna run the old instances.
Then you need to decide if your game is about skill or about satisfying lazy people who can't bother do a few extra instances.
There is not a single thing in WoW that people don't QQ about ("clan logistics turned in hell" is nothing but QQ), it's really a matter of what defines your game and what doesn't.
Lazyness? Fucking god this is a freaking game. Noone in a game should pass 2 seconds doing something they don't want to.
Skill ? Not all no-attuned people are bad. Many just want to ignore those dungeons or was not playing when most of the clans were running it. Attunament =/= skill. And if a clan want to accept a single unskilled player and teach him instead of forcing all the other 24 run fruitless instaces it's up to the clan. I prefer the second option.
I disagree. WoW's team combat is extremely primitive, as well. Tanking is limited and many have labeled it as "easy", CC is repetitive, interrupts are repetitive, and DPS is very boring, the only thing that required any skill at all was healing.
Problem is, none of the stuff you're saying is worth anything if you know in advance exactly what you're going to do. And WoW is very limited in terms of encounter design due to the trinity.
Then we have to agree in disagree.
I never played any other role then DPS so i can't say tank/heal is easy or not. But to reach the highest DPS counters it requires more skill then any other western RPG game i've ever played (and i play everything on the hardest, allways). I usually changes rotation alot. It depends on so many factors. What kind of debuffs you want to use wich depends on your clan formation. The tank's competence wich depends on the healers skill. Almost anything that happens in your clan and in the fight provokes something that end up changing what you should do and what talents you should pick. To reach the optimal point you gotta learn how to take everything in consideration, even subjective stuff like the bahavior of your tema mates. Imo this is more complex then 99% of the SP RPGs out there.
WoW solo doesn't teach you everything you need but it teachs alot. Everytime I get a new skill on WoW i allways read it and use it a few times to learn how it works in pratice. The importance and limits of dots to dps. What is a interrupt skill and in wich situation you should use it. How to pull without aggroing more then you want to.
This is very minimal and, I assure you, does not require the amount of time it takes to level in WoW.
It would be 300x times more effective to stick a person into an instance at max level and let them play around with it. WoW is not so difficult that you need a 3-month bootcamp to "learn" your class. You really don't. You could learn your entire class in a day, and out-game guides are more effective than the game itself, which lacks the capacity to teach you anything important.
1. It would be 3000 times more frustrating. Start the game by reading through a list of 40 skills ? Start to play in group before even know what threat is ? Wipe your party 10 consecutives times and being kicked until you learn wtf is going on ? Hey i'm not saying WoWs leveling is perfect or anything, i'm only saying it has a reason to be there.
2. You don't take 3 months to level a wow character. I took like 15 days last time and i'm not addicted at all.
3. And no, the avarage player can't learn his class in a day. Try to do a experiement, a get someone that never played a mmorpg in his life and give him level 85 wow character and see what happens.
No it doesn't, you can solo the game and never enter an instance.
The only way to ensure people actually learn something is to limit them from being able to join instances if they haven't finished preparatory instances.
They tryed it in TBC it didin't worked out. It only drove away people from instances, wich is the focus of the game and turned clan logistics in hell (you had to mobilise your whole clan to attune new members. After a while not attuned people were exclused from the raiding world and unable to get back).
WoW's mechanic is the standard pseudo-turn based mechanic, BW games are littered with those.
And BW are kinda weak in gameplay imo.
So does WoW. WoW, in fact, has poorer combat than most of these games because it limits a lot of things because of balance fearmongering + it has the trinity.
When it comes down to solo situations, WoW have really poor mechanics indeed. But WoW works very nice in terms of teamwork. For exemple: to achieve the max DPS with a warlock is actually very easy and unfun (in terms of skill. Just use the best rotation.). However you shouldn't unleash all your DPs all the time because of threat. To keep your damage in a good point is a much more cooler task and it constantly changes because it depends on your party (better tanks allows more DPS, stronger party menbers will decrease your need to risk yourself with strong skills and allows more focus on other tasks like debuffing his damage).
WoW solo doesn't teach you everything you need but it teachs alot. Everytime I get a new skill on WoW i allways read it and use it a few times to learn how it works in pratice. This teachs the difference between instant attacks and next swap attacks. The importance and limits of dots to dps. What is a interrupt skill and in wich situation you should use it. How to pull without aggroing more then you want to. Etc... Also the 1~85 leveling includes alot of 5 men runs that also teachs some basic concepts like threat, positioning, ccing, etc...
And single player game's does not have wow's mechanics. The ones that uses a familiar mechanic (free turns) have poor combat and only work because theres other aspects besides gameplay to catch your attention, like plot progression and exploration of new content. Maybe they should try to add those things in WoW... AoC's first 20 levels are great execly because theres interesting plot.
But i don't see how a 1x1 fight in WoW can ever be fun.
WoW's combat IS good. The problem is that the whole game is based on team work, so the solo part ends up being dumb.
I've no idea how to fix wow's solo fightning... I don't think it's possible to creat interesting monster fights for 10 different classes. WoW mechanics only works when you have access to all kinda of abilities, and to do that you need at least 3 players.
But why are standard mobs designed to be so pointless? My guess: to slow down the game and give people a reason to spend hours grinding. Everything to maximize playtime, which means lots of cash.
Even through this theory may have any base, this is not the main reaosn why WoW work that way.
The first 85 levels of wow is basically a tutorial. Each Wow class have like 40 skills. PEople need to time to learn how to use those skills, learn why they eist and when they should use then. The best wya to do that is unlock the skills one by one, so you get used to your skill list while you level up.
Right now the level speed of WoW is minimal. One can cap a character only in 10 days.
But I do agree that the monster are WAY to fucking dumb. Anyway WoW rules because it has the most fun and challenging raid system and raid is something that mmorpg players love.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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Dota, HoN and LoL are the definition noob hostility hehe
No.. It does not work fine. Imo those game are actually a exemple of how throwing the player in the multiplayer without any kinda of learning will NOT work.
In WoW vanilla i capped my first character in 30 days (around 100 hours if i'm not mistaken). It was considered extremely fast compered to other mmorpg of it's time (i took like 2 years to cap a RO character).
Learn anything it's not the same as learn everything. A player that level they character normally will most of the time be better then a power leveled player. I had the worst experience with power leveled people in WoW.. they just enter your clan, show how it's impossible to even do heroics with him and then quit the game after ruin everyone's game a hunderd times.
Do they know everything they need? Or course not. But they learn alot... much better then someone that uses searing pain all the time w/o knowing that this skill have a very specific function.
]
Some works, others not. Imo Raiding works great if you have time and a clan to do it.
Exclude potential and even good players just because they didn't played in the begnning of the expansion is ridicolous.
And the best raid time was in the end of TBC when attunaments where no longer needed. We just throwed one or two noobs in the raid and in time they learned how to play. Better then refusing someone just because most clans don't wanna run the old instances.
Lazyness? Fucking god this is a freaking game. Noone in a game should pass 2 seconds doing something they don't want to.
Skill ? Not all no-attuned people are bad. Many just want to ignore those dungeons or was not playing when most of the clans were running it. Attunament =/= skill. And if a clan want to accept a single unskilled player and teach him instead of forcing all the other 24 run fruitless instaces it's up to the clan. I prefer the second option.
Then we have to agree in disagree.
I never played any other role then DPS so i can't say tank/heal is easy or not. But to reach the highest DPS counters it requires more skill then any other western RPG game i've ever played (and i play everything on the hardest, allways). I usually changes rotation alot. It depends on so many factors. What kind of debuffs you want to use wich depends on your clan formation. The tank's competence wich depends on the healers skill. Almost anything that happens in your clan and in the fight provokes something that end up changing what you should do and what talents you should pick. To reach the optimal point you gotta learn how to take everything in consideration, even subjective stuff like the bahavior of your tema mates. Imo this is more complex then 99% of the SP RPGs out there.
1. It would be 3000 times more frustrating. Start the game by reading through a list of 40 skills ? Start to play in group before even know what threat is ? Wipe your party 10 consecutives times and being kicked until you learn wtf is going on ? Hey i'm not saying WoWs leveling is perfect or anything, i'm only saying it has a reason to be there.
2. You don't take 3 months to level a wow character. I took like 15 days last time and i'm not addicted at all.
3. And no, the avarage player can't learn his class in a day. Try to do a experiement, a get someone that never played a mmorpg in his life and give him level 85 wow character and see what happens.
They tryed it in TBC it didin't worked out. It only drove away people from instances, wich is the focus of the game and turned clan logistics in hell (you had to mobilise your whole clan to attune new members. After a while not attuned people were exclused from the raiding world and unable to get back).
And BW are kinda weak in gameplay imo.
When it comes down to solo situations, WoW have really poor mechanics indeed. But WoW works very nice in terms of teamwork. For exemple: to achieve the max DPS with a warlock is actually very easy and unfun (in terms of skill. Just use the best rotation.). However you shouldn't unleash all your DPs all the time because of threat. To keep your damage in a good point is a much more cooler task and it constantly changes because it depends on your party (better tanks allows more DPS, stronger party menbers will decrease your need to risk yourself with strong skills and allows more focus on other tasks like debuffing his damage).
And single player game's does not have wow's mechanics. The ones that uses a familiar mechanic (free turns) have poor combat and only work because theres other aspects besides gameplay to catch your attention, like plot progression and exploration of new content. Maybe they should try to add those things in WoW... AoC's first 20 levels are great execly because theres interesting plot.
But i don't see how a 1x1 fight in WoW can ever be fun.
I've no idea how to fix wow's solo fightning... I don't think it's possible to creat interesting monster fights for 10 different classes. WoW mechanics only works when you have access to all kinda of abilities, and to do that you need at least 3 players.
Even through this theory may have any base, this is not the main reaosn why WoW work that way.
The first 85 levels of wow is basically a tutorial. Each Wow class have like 40 skills. PEople need to time to learn how to use those skills, learn why they eist and when they should use then. The best wya to do that is unlock the skills one by one, so you get used to your skill list while you level up.
Right now the level speed of WoW is minimal. One can cap a character only in 10 days.
But I do agree that the monster are WAY to fucking dumb. Anyway WoW rules because it has the most fun and challenging raid system and raid is something that mmorpg players love.