Thats what im talking about :D, ive been avoiding reading this thread because of the massive amount of text in the debate.... but when it comes down to it, most people at diablo3.com are gamers, and we all turned out alright?...
right?
Riiiight....
Quote from "Murderface" »
look at it this way, a weirdo dosnt think himself a weirdo because he is one(goes for alot of things) so anybody could be a weirdo and not even know it. so if everyones a potential weirdo then are weirdos bad?
You're only a weido if you stray from the masses. And I don't think we are anymore. At least not in Sweden.
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problems are nonexistant they are only preceived, and so called problems have deep roots in society that if disturbed could cause more so called problems, but a problem to one person could be preceived by another to be a non problem and by the time people come to a conclusion on how to fix a problem it usually has already either evolved into somthing completly different or has resolved itself, so the people looking to fix the problem end up wasting time on an expired pipe dream while even more problems arise. this is the predicament you have to deal with when u add space and time it is called chaos, and chaos my friend is unresolvable (if we could only freeze time there would be no more problems)
So, based on this, what do you want us to do?
Quote from "Murderface" »
for example you see 3 or 4 happy comercials then u see a add for a govenor, you might start to equate this govenor with happiness, this wouldnt be immediate though it would take several times to sway your opinion (but thats why u see so many of them).
It would not surprise me if they did this. I'd actually be more surprised if they didn't try to utilize it.
Quote from "True-Saber" »
In one of the other communities there is a kid who is 12 trying to hang out with a community who is for the most part 17-25 and are always saying things like COO00000OOCKS!!! and such we don't want to corrupt him but it is pretty much too late we keep hinting to him that we won't let him in the community because he is to young but he just keeps coming back.
What I'm saying is that because of gaming he found/is trying to participate in a community that is completely inappropriate for his age and im guessing that he will be seen as weird by his friends
Which is once again more a lack of parenting than anything else.
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Interesting. I see what you mean, and it makes sense. Either society works as it should, and age restrictions fills no purpose, or society doesn't work, and then we have bigger problems to worry about.
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I always have difficulties understanding what age restriction got to do with someone not understanding all connections.
Problem is that you simply can't verify who understands something or how much someone needs to understand something before it can become available to them.
Because the brain, which obviously is what makes us capable of understanding all connections, doesn't come fully functional. It evolves as we live and eventually become stable or whatever you want to call it.
I'm not saying we should arrest 16 year old for playing games that only people 18 are "allowed" to play. I do not think however that having a 6 year old play Postal is a very wise decision in most cases either.
What I'm saying is based solely on what I've read and heard, I haven't done any research on this topic. It may turn out that a childs ability to comprehend these concepts are fully developed by the age of four, I don't know. But unless it is, precaution should be taken.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
I also find it funny how someone could possibly understand something better when its not available to them.
Of course they cannot, but understanding something can be highly subjective and twisted from what it actually is. If an individuals ability understand what they see isn't fully functional yet, someone else can make a decision for them
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
Furthermore, i find it undoubtefull that children would have more problems when it comes to what is real and what is not simply because children have a more vivid imagination.
It's not so much depending on their imagination, but it would stem from the same source. Kids have a vivid imagination, proably to make up for that they lack in explanation to the real world. And in the same way, they obviously lack an understanding of what pain, death and killing people means at an early age. Most of them anyway.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
Sure, children have it easyer to believe in fiction, but then again some adults believe in religion just the same, question is if letting kids play violent videogames would make them more dangerous because they have a vivid imagination, the answer "yes" seems to be pretty paradoxal to me.
The difference being that fiction is easily proved to be just fiction and easily discernable, while religion or any form of belief in a higher power is still not proven negative.
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I understand what you're saying, but thinking that anyone is able to really grasp the totality of whats going on in the news is just naivity, the only way we're able to deal with what we see there is by distancing us from what we see, if we don't then we would go mad imo.
I agree with you, there's no way we can know everything, but we can know more than what is merely shown us on the screen at the moment, which is what I think a child may not always do.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
The kid will never grasp the emotional strain of loosing a limb when blowing someones leg away in a videogame, its nothing different then me seeing the fires in California on the news. Adults who pretend children to not grasp those tragedies are nothing more then hypocrits, because they don't grasp it themselves, unless it happens to them.
The difference I see here is that, on the news, forestfires, murder etc. is always portrayed as something sad, and no parent ever encourages it. Video games however, are supposed to be fun, thus blowing up someones leg could be interpreted as teaching a child that's fun to do.
I do not believe that to be the case with regularly intelligent people, because we can link blowing people up to what we see in other media and perfectly well realise that's not something you do in the real world. What I doubt is if a child at a young age is capable of making and understanding all those connections. Therefore there should be an age restriction, but violence in video games in themselves do not make teenages go berserk. Unless like you say something isn't clicking right, in which case something else is bound to tick off.
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I'm with you now. So, going back to the argument on whether video games creates killers, you're saying kids won't go haywire just because they're playing a game where they blow people's heads off, right? It takes something forced upon them which has shaped them into becoming "susceptible", for lack of better word.
Now, doesn't that require the individual in question to be able to grasp what they're actually seeing and/or chosing? You know what you're seeing when you turn on the news, you're old enough to grasp the totality of it. But a kid can choose something without really knowing what they are choosing, they don't have all the facts and knowledge, so letting them have any game they want at 6 might not be the smartest decision still.
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I'll have to go through this again, because I'm not catching on to what you're saying.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
I believe in the argument that each person is in essence the same and could potentionally become a killer because of bad outside influence of other individuals and their "moralvalues" and "taboos" and their societies "issues", or the person could have geneticaldefects, either way, "censoring" whatever media because of such potentional problems is futile.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
Firstly, i literally stipulated that a person DOES NOT become a killer because of what that person chooses to see.
I still don't see what you mean. You're saying everyone could potentially become a killer because of outside influences from other individuals, and then you tell me in the next post an individual does not become a killer based on what they see. (I assume that by "see" you mean the same as being affected by the environment, perhaps that's not correct?)
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Nobody needs to define anything when man can just shoot every creature in the world and still survive. That's intelligence. Man is the only creature that can defeat a creature stronger, bigger, more dexterous than it is. Do you know any other creature like that?
They all do it by instincts only. And as far as I can see elephants have not advanced any farther than they were 50000 years ago or whenever did they came to be.
Pleasure is a chemical setup in the brain. That's pretty much it. Difference is, animals don't look for it. They just do what their setup tells them to do. They have no love, no loyalty, nothing, absolute instinct. They don't live, they "do". They are like programs. Programmed to do something. While two humans can be very, very different, animals are all the same no matter how you raise them or what do you do to them sooner or later their instincts wake up and they eat ya.
What does that make dogs trained by their trainers then? Can they not show loyalty towards their owners? If not, then how can you even train animals to do anything if instict is all they go by?
Second, just because we can't tell the difference between two individual animals is't proof that they're identical. The brains of animals follow the same pattern ours do. They're born with genetical pro's and con's, and the environment then shapes them into the animals they are. The cannot simply be
Third, merely going on instict seems to me a good way to die. Insects and other minor life probably do, but then agin the only have to eat, reproduce and then die.
Large mammals to me must have more than instincts. Being able to judge a situation based on the facts available and then make a decision regardin what to do is necessary in nature. Assume there's been a flood, and 100 jaguars are stuck in different trees, all surrounded by water. They all have land close by though. I would wager that some of the jaguars will jump down from their tree into the water and try to swim to land, while others will sit still and wait until hunger drives them from there. Some will have judged the situation differently. Perhaps their tree was weak, perhaps the piece of land was too far away. Either way, it's exacly the same thing humans would do. Some would probably sit, while some would swim. But the way i see it, it doesn't fit into the idea of instinct. Instincs cannot possibly work for every possibly situation an animal can be in. They have to adapt to different situations, and thus have to think.
Another example are flies bashing against the window. they never learn, they continue to fly into it until they die. Now a mammal may do the same because they can't see the window, but they won't continue to jump into the same window over and over again. Thus they have learned, and all is not instinct. And to learn, you need to be able to process information selectively and utilize it. Thus active thinking which goes beyond instincs.
Quote from "Thasador" »
LOL...you forget about domestic cats. I was watching the animal planet and Cats and Humans are the only ones that kill when they dont even need too. My ole cat killed everything that moved...even my albino praying mantis i found.
Same here, our cats would bring dead mice and just lay them down outside our door without eating them.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
I don't believe in the argument that each person is different and therefor you have to protect all because one person could have the personality to be negatively influenced by for example the fiction that is games and that could influence that person to for example kill. I believe in the argument that each person is in essence the same and could potentionally become a killer because of bad outside influence of other individuals and their "moralvalues" and "taboos" and their societies "issues", or the person could have geneticaldefects, either way, "censoring" whatever media because of such potentional problems is futile.
Wait, you're saying that everyone could be a killer depending on what they see, and then you proceed to say we shouldn't censor what could possibly turn people into these killers?
We have to ask ourselves where these bad influences come from. The way I see it, they have to come from the enviroment following your reasoning. If that's the case, it should be, theoretically speaking, possible to engineer a whole society into whatever a ruler wants. Regulate the enviroment and you gradually change the inhabitants. So if violence in gaming, which is a factor of the enviroment, is censored, wouldn't that at least lead to a reduction of bad influences?
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Not necessarily, whether it turns out to be bad or not is a combination of upbringing and genetical composition. Some people are simply bound to react to visual violence in a different way, whether or not their parents do a "good" job.
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I believe that at birth, everyone is mentally the same unless they have some mental disabilities, and if such mental disablities do exist they are, at most, insinuated, but not created by, violence.
That I do not believe. Everyone has a brain with minor differences within it. DNA does not make all brains identical at creation, merely similar in that they all are capable of utilizing the same funcions such as learning, memorizing, logical thinking etc. But that does not make is identical. Every kid grows up with different starting conditions. Some are simply smarter and will forever remain so. Others are naturally better at playing instruments. These skills can be trained to be sure, and forgotten, or not used, but the starting point and maximum point remains different for all persons. (In today's society, who knows what advance physics will be able to do in the future.)
Quote from "Equinox" »
Because I don't remember it. Because I have no evil thoughts on that subject. Because I don't want to kill anybody. Because I am still scared of blood and wounds in real life. And a lot of other indications of "normality". I am not crazy.
Just because you don't remember it consciously is hardly proof for me. Watching gory movies at an early age does affect you, in the same way as everything in your surroundings always affect you. Your brain stores it all (or parts of it all anyway) and there it remains. It doesn't make you crazy, but it does make you a different person from everybody else.
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Sianoq, you just have to explain to that kid of yours that TV is not real. I always knew that and TV could not scare me. Documentary videos always scared me a lot more because they were real. The farthest it went was nightmares from movies like Poltergeist and Videodrome (but those are not gore, those are suspence and surrealism) but I the nightmares that I got on my own were a lot worse. Movies with a lot of gore went by unnoticed. I remember there was something in it but it didn't look like anything I would concentrate my attention on... Sex was certainly skipped all the time. I may remember "this was there" but it was never identified.
I'm wondering whether it works to explain something to all kids. I can agree with you that it's a matter of making the kid understand that it is not real, but whether or not that can be done through conversation I question.
Quote from "Equinox" »
I believe that a child does not view violence the way you think they view it. They have some sort of their own opinion about it, so it often affects them less than it affects teens or some adults. How am I different from any kids? I'm not.
Hypothetical question: How would you know whether or not you are different from any other kid? I would say everyone is different from every other kid, otherwise they'd be the same person.
Quote from "Equinox" »
(I saw one, tho, in a cinema, in fact, didn't affect me AT ALL)
How would you know that it didn't? How can you ever make an objective statement about yourself, when the only judge is what you're trying to evaluate?
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Simple answer, don't watch tv. Television is entertainment, if you are above it then find a different medium.
Television exists to provide it's viewers with information, now the quality of that information can be disputed. To some extent I agree with Doppelganger, there's too much focus on stories rather than facts most of the time, but if not taken to the extreme I find it to be quite enjoyable to watch.
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Im not saying FPSs dont have good story, because some do, but it seems like a lot of them are your basic click click bang bang no real point to them sorts of games.
Less talk=More time blowing up skulls. Nuff said
Quote from "Siaynoq" »
What bugs me a lot about the Hisory Channel is the way they constantly dramatize what they're talking about.
Obviously an attempt to make people interested in documentaries. It can get annoying sometimes, but if they improved upon it, it could really become a good element of the shows.
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We watched History Channel videos in our history class, I think they were quite good.
It's authentic and all, I'll give you that. But sometimes, especially when it comes to programs about WW2 there's an awful lot of flagwaving and praising of the American army/navy/air force. There's no shortage of shows dealing with the paranormal either, like the Loch Ness monster, Ailen sightings, mysterious cow deaths, doomsday dates etc. Quite fun to watch, indeed, but I question the scientific worth of them.
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You're only a weido if you stray from the masses. And I don't think we are anymore. At least not in Sweden.
It would not surprise me if they did this. I'd actually be more surprised if they didn't try to utilize it.
Which is once again more a lack of parenting than anything else.
I'm not saying we should arrest 16 year old for playing games that only people 18 are "allowed" to play. I do not think however that having a 6 year old play Postal is a very wise decision in most cases either.
What I'm saying is based solely on what I've read and heard, I haven't done any research on this topic. It may turn out that a childs ability to comprehend these concepts are fully developed by the age of four, I don't know. But unless it is, precaution should be taken.
Of course they cannot, but understanding something can be highly subjective and twisted from what it actually is. If an individuals ability understand what they see isn't fully functional yet, someone else can make a decision for them
It's not so much depending on their imagination, but it would stem from the same source. Kids have a vivid imagination, proably to make up for that they lack in explanation to the real world. And in the same way, they obviously lack an understanding of what pain, death and killing people means at an early age. Most of them anyway.
The difference being that fiction is easily proved to be just fiction and easily discernable, while religion or any form of belief in a higher power is still not proven negative.
The difference I see here is that, on the news, forestfires, murder etc. is always portrayed as something sad, and no parent ever encourages it. Video games however, are supposed to be fun, thus blowing up someones leg could be interpreted as teaching a child that's fun to do.
I do not believe that to be the case with regularly intelligent people, because we can link blowing people up to what we see in other media and perfectly well realise that's not something you do in the real world. What I doubt is if a child at a young age is capable of making and understanding all those connections. Therefore there should be an age restriction, but violence in video games in themselves do not make teenages go berserk. Unless like you say something isn't clicking right, in which case something else is bound to tick off.
Now, doesn't that require the individual in question to be able to grasp what they're actually seeing and/or chosing? You know what you're seeing when you turn on the news, you're old enough to grasp the totality of it. But a kid can choose something without really knowing what they are choosing, they don't have all the facts and knowledge, so letting them have any game they want at 6 might not be the smartest decision still.
I still don't see what you mean. You're saying everyone could potentially become a killer because of outside influences from other individuals, and then you tell me in the next post an individual does not become a killer based on what they see. (I assume that by "see" you mean the same as being affected by the environment, perhaps that's not correct?)
Second, just because we can't tell the difference between two individual animals is't proof that they're identical. The brains of animals follow the same pattern ours do. They're born with genetical pro's and con's, and the environment then shapes them into the animals they are. The cannot simply be
Third, merely going on instict seems to me a good way to die. Insects and other minor life probably do, but then agin the only have to eat, reproduce and then die.
Large mammals to me must have more than instincts. Being able to judge a situation based on the facts available and then make a decision regardin what to do is necessary in nature. Assume there's been a flood, and 100 jaguars are stuck in different trees, all surrounded by water. They all have land close by though. I would wager that some of the jaguars will jump down from their tree into the water and try to swim to land, while others will sit still and wait until hunger drives them from there. Some will have judged the situation differently. Perhaps their tree was weak, perhaps the piece of land was too far away. Either way, it's exacly the same thing humans would do. Some would probably sit, while some would swim. But the way i see it, it doesn't fit into the idea of instinct. Instincs cannot possibly work for every possibly situation an animal can be in. They have to adapt to different situations, and thus have to think.
Another example are flies bashing against the window. they never learn, they continue to fly into it until they die. Now a mammal may do the same because they can't see the window, but they won't continue to jump into the same window over and over again. Thus they have learned, and all is not instinct. And to learn, you need to be able to process information selectively and utilize it. Thus active thinking which goes beyond instincs.
Same here, our cats would bring dead mice and just lay them down outside our door without eating them.
Wait, you're saying that everyone could be a killer depending on what they see, and then you proceed to say we shouldn't censor what could possibly turn people into these killers?
We have to ask ourselves where these bad influences come from. The way I see it, they have to come from the enviroment following your reasoning. If that's the case, it should be, theoretically speaking, possible to engineer a whole society into whatever a ruler wants. Regulate the enviroment and you gradually change the inhabitants. So if violence in gaming, which is a factor of the enviroment, is censored, wouldn't that at least lead to a reduction of bad influences?
Just because you don't remember it consciously is hardly proof for me. Watching gory movies at an early age does affect you, in the same way as everything in your surroundings always affect you. Your brain stores it all (or parts of it all anyway) and there it remains. It doesn't make you crazy, but it does make you a different person from everybody else.
Hypothetical question: How would you know whether or not you are different from any other kid? I would say everyone is different from every other kid, otherwise they'd be the same person.
How would you know that it didn't? How can you ever make an objective statement about yourself, when the only judge is what you're trying to evaluate?
Obviously an attempt to make people interested in documentaries. It can get annoying sometimes, but if they improved upon it, it could really become a good element of the shows.