People, all of this is completely pointless. Asking for proof equals asking for logic.
Every single person out there with half logic is already atheist, unless they still need religion for something.
Religion addresses :
- the death problem : eternal life
- the loss problem (related to death) : everybody meets up there
- the origin of the universe problem : created
- the origin of life problem : created
- the meaning of life problem : pray/love
- the feeling of nothingness problem : the universe was created just for us humans
- the loneliness problem : God is always with you
- etc...
Every single human fear is addressed in a pretty tale, and you are still wondering why people believe ?
Answer : because there is at least one of these points for which they need religion to comfort them.
Next problem
This guy's got life figured out!! I wish I was more like him. Who needs self awareness and critical thinking when you have such conviction! Not this guy.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
No matter what the truth is, it is still the truth. The truth has always been the truth and always will be. No matter what we BELIEVE to be true. No matter what we want to be true. Since the beginning, the truth has been the truth before we could even conceive of such a perplexing issue. No matter how any of us feel, it does not matter.
So why bother worrying about who is right or wrong? I don't really care anymore what people believe. I mean, I'm interested, but my view of a person won't change based on their belief. They might be right, they might be wrong.
Whether they are or not, the answer has been the answer long before the question was posed.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Ya, it's hard for some to get past that initial thought on philosophy.
I blame this on language and the words with the emotional and historical and stereotypical attachments they hold.
It takes a pretty thorough understanding of the philosophy and the history of it's patrons to understand WHY they were doing what they were doing. It's not to say that we should ignore convention. They were human just as we are. When you examine philosophy at it's core, and then look at science and the puzzling questions that it raises it's clear as day that they fit together. They don't oppose one another at all. Philosophy isn't meant to pass judgement on anything. It's as objective as science. It merely asks the questions. And simply by asking questions, very smart people were able to come to conclusions that led to even more intriguing questions. There's a reason Descartes and Locke are still famous names.
And again, before you make that assumption, there is a lot of recent developments in the science behind understanding(rather, lack there of) consciousness. It's very subtle, but I'll point it out. To say that consciousness is merely a function is a leap of an assumption that has no substantial basis whatsoever in the field of science or convention. You're treating the topic in a manner that suites your understanding. But it's just not that easy. There's strong evidence that consciousness is not a thing confined within our body.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Personally, I was pretty religious as a well as a child. Being raised Jehovah's Witness I went door to door proselytizing. However as I grew older I became more aware of what I could and could not ever truly know. The existence of god being one of them. If it was to be on a spectrum, I am still closer to to the religious side. I know I can't know anything. But I can have good information from science. And I can have good inquisition from philosophy. From there I decided that I believe in consciousness. Ergo, I believe in the soul. Which in turn still leads me to believe in an afterlife of some sort of fashion.
This whole paragraph confuses me. You know you can't know anything? Why do you not think you can know anything? Is this a "there are no absolute truth's" type of mindset?
Also i don't understand how belief in consciousness leads to belief in a soul. Are you implying that a soul is a synonym for consciousness? If not what is the difference between the two and why does one lead to another? Just curious.
I think there are absolute truths by definition. But as far as having knowledge of anything other than math and a square having to be a square in order to be a square, there is no way to know that a solipsistic view on the universe isn't valid. If you think you know something, you have not explored what it means to know something.
Maybe go do some research of your own on consciousness and where it stands today in the scientific and philosophical fields! To keep things short, I will simply say that I believe consciousness to be the essence of a person that is a real thing. And I believe this. I do not know it. That's important to say because I want to stress that I don't think I know it in the slightest. I would elaborate on how I reached that conclusion if it wasn't in a stale thread. Maybe if it was framed in a way that was more compelling. Like a new thread.
@Linkx- Not pissed, just curious.
"Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up."
This is the most important quote from you. This alludes even more to what I was initially suggesting. You put yourself in the role of the bullied. Psychologically this makes perfect sense concerning your view on Christianity. While you may not think you are picking on anybody, you cannot deny that people tend to think that you do in fact have disdain for Christianity. In that quote you are showcasing yourself as a person who has been prosecuted by Christians. There's got to be something there. It seems like it has to be more personal than just a bunch of online arguments.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Like old times. These religious conversations are one of the true staples to the dfans family!
/hugz <3
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I'm sorry but what you say about your desires and what you actually say generally is very contradictory. There's nothing objective at all about your stance.
I think "a thirst for information" would be more appropriate than "a thirst for knowledge". It almost sounds like you went from one extreme to another. This may not be true, but the way you mock the religion presents this image of you(at least to me) that says you're a person with such an extreme view that you have zero respect for the Christian religion specifically. Which doesn't look like an objective stance at all. It looks more like you just picked a different side to be on, so you mock the other side.
I guess a good analogy would be a football player and a geek. You're more reminiscent of the football player who mocks the geek for not being macho like him. As opposed to the football player who knows what it's like to be on the other side. They're both football players, but one has this distinct and delusional sense of identity.
I'm not commenting on your side or your opinion. Rather, it's just strange to me that you claim objectivity when I see nothing of the sort.
Personally, I was pretty religious as a well as a child. Being raised Jehovah's Witness I went door to door proselytizing. However as I grew older I became more aware of what I could and could not ever truly know. The existence of god being one of them. If it was to be on a spectrum, I am still closer to to the religious side. I know I can't know anything. But I can have good information from science. And I can have good inquisition from philosophy. From there I decided that I believe in consciousness. Ergo, I believe in the soul. Which in turn still leads me to believe in an afterlife of some sort of fashion.
But. I know I can't know any of that. And, if none of that is true, that's ok. I'll have a wonderful eternal rest. I don't really know where I'm going with this honestly...I just don't understand all the animosity. People will be people. Of course they will willingly believe something they have no true knowledge of. That's no reason to pick on them. As a whole, we're not very intelligent.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I just gotta know, did a bunch of Christians bully you in elementary or something Linkx? You seem almost obsessed with slandering their name and reputation as a believable faith. I'm not saying your actions are wrong. I just find it interesting that you have such a...fervor hatred for them.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
For some reason, those people are usually inclined to fight to the death over their no god belief. Ironic.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
What I never understood was the rage some people had with religious folk.
Be intelligent and look at this from a different perspective.
They believe with all of their being that you will burn if they do not save you. They are trying to help, even if their efforts are misguided.
Yes it's annoying, but there's no reason to get flustered over it if you take the time to actually think about the dynamics of the situation.
Just ignore them and go about your business. No need to let it ruin your day. Be above it.
It's like getting angry over a stupid youtube comment. You mean there are dumb people in the world who will say stupid things?!? Shocking!
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
It's pretty funny when a new batch of users discovers old philosophy and religion threads as they rehash everything.
I assure you Prole did not create this thread to solve an internal struggle. He created it lol@people between his college lectures.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The statement wasn't referring to what people think. It was referring to what they claim to know.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
"An atheist has to know alot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions athesim is very stupid." - Carl Sagan
I figured since you guys (Proleteria and LinkX) get such rampant hard ons over Carl Sagan ... that I should just toss this one at ya.
Indeed. To claim such knowledge is laughable.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
That wasn't what you asked for though. You asked me what I "believed," about the origin of the universe. I don't believe anything about it. I have some certain bits of knowledge about various parts of what (current science) has assumed to be the original epoch of our universe, but even of that small part I (as is the rest of humanity) am currently still filling in blanks as theory and data form more knowledge.
I don't and do not have to believe in Quantum theory or BB Theory. They're plausible and rational explanations of observable phenomena that are backed up by empirical evidence. Assuming more empirical data were gathered that overturned both theories, I wouldn't place any stock in them. If I held beliefs in either theory, it would require me to consider them valid regardless of the data. That is completely irrational and counter to my nature.
i need to read the dictionary more when i talk to you because you take everything in its 100% literal definition. which i guess is how speach should be taken and its hard to not when its just words on a page and not in person. i just wanted your opinion on what you thought about it, not actually 100% believed to be true.
Words are symbols to represent ideas. To use them incorrectly leads people to think they "know" things. It leads to a lack of understanding and misrepresentation of the true meaning of these things. This is a bigger issue than most are aware of.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I never said it did. And those concepts are not about proving anything. They are about understanding.
To feel that you have knowledge of one thing over another is false. To prove anything as fact is just as difficult as proving the existence of god. This is primarily due to the scope of words like fact and truth by their very definition and accepting their implications in the fullest extent.
This is why I believe language to be flawed. I think one day we will advance in our means to communicate.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
You cannot PROVE anything. I doubt any of us are aware of reality. Whether you are right or wrong does not matter. There is no spoon.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
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This guy's got life figured out!! I wish I was more like him. Who needs self awareness and critical thinking when you have such conviction! Not this guy.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
This is how I look at it all in the big picture:
No matter what the truth is, it is still the truth. The truth has always been the truth and always will be. No matter what we BELIEVE to be true. No matter what we want to be true. Since the beginning, the truth has been the truth before we could even conceive of such a perplexing issue. No matter how any of us feel, it does not matter.
So why bother worrying about who is right or wrong? I don't really care anymore what people believe. I mean, I'm interested, but my view of a person won't change based on their belief. They might be right, they might be wrong.
Whether they are or not, the answer has been the answer long before the question was posed.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I blame this on language and the words with the emotional and historical and stereotypical attachments they hold.
It takes a pretty thorough understanding of the philosophy and the history of it's patrons to understand WHY they were doing what they were doing. It's not to say that we should ignore convention. They were human just as we are. When you examine philosophy at it's core, and then look at science and the puzzling questions that it raises it's clear as day that they fit together. They don't oppose one another at all. Philosophy isn't meant to pass judgement on anything. It's as objective as science. It merely asks the questions. And simply by asking questions, very smart people were able to come to conclusions that led to even more intriguing questions. There's a reason Descartes and Locke are still famous names.
And again, before you make that assumption, there is a lot of recent developments in the science behind understanding(rather, lack there of) consciousness. It's very subtle, but I'll point it out. To say that consciousness is merely a function is a leap of an assumption that has no substantial basis whatsoever in the field of science or convention. You're treating the topic in a manner that suites your understanding. But it's just not that easy. There's strong evidence that consciousness is not a thing confined within our body.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I think there are absolute truths by definition. But as far as having knowledge of anything other than math and a square having to be a square in order to be a square, there is no way to know that a solipsistic view on the universe isn't valid. If you think you know something, you have not explored what it means to know something.
Maybe go do some research of your own on consciousness and where it stands today in the scientific and philosophical fields! To keep things short, I will simply say that I believe consciousness to be the essence of a person that is a real thing. And I believe this. I do not know it. That's important to say because I want to stress that I don't think I know it in the slightest. I would elaborate on how I reached that conclusion if it wasn't in a stale thread. Maybe if it was framed in a way that was more compelling. Like a new thread.
@Linkx- Not pissed, just curious.
"Actually, reverse the roles. Religion is the football player, and I am the geek. The difference is that Atheists (the geeks) are finally starting to go to the gyms and bulk up."
This is the most important quote from you. This alludes even more to what I was initially suggesting. You put yourself in the role of the bullied. Psychologically this makes perfect sense concerning your view on Christianity. While you may not think you are picking on anybody, you cannot deny that people tend to think that you do in fact have disdain for Christianity. In that quote you are showcasing yourself as a person who has been prosecuted by Christians. There's got to be something there. It seems like it has to be more personal than just a bunch of online arguments.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
/hugz <3
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I think "a thirst for information" would be more appropriate than "a thirst for knowledge". It almost sounds like you went from one extreme to another. This may not be true, but the way you mock the religion presents this image of you(at least to me) that says you're a person with such an extreme view that you have zero respect for the Christian religion specifically. Which doesn't look like an objective stance at all. It looks more like you just picked a different side to be on, so you mock the other side.
I guess a good analogy would be a football player and a geek. You're more reminiscent of the football player who mocks the geek for not being macho like him. As opposed to the football player who knows what it's like to be on the other side. They're both football players, but one has this distinct and delusional sense of identity.
I'm not commenting on your side or your opinion. Rather, it's just strange to me that you claim objectivity when I see nothing of the sort.
Personally, I was pretty religious as a well as a child. Being raised Jehovah's Witness I went door to door proselytizing. However as I grew older I became more aware of what I could and could not ever truly know. The existence of god being one of them. If it was to be on a spectrum, I am still closer to to the religious side. I know I can't know anything. But I can have good information from science. And I can have good inquisition from philosophy. From there I decided that I believe in consciousness. Ergo, I believe in the soul. Which in turn still leads me to believe in an afterlife of some sort of fashion.
But. I know I can't know any of that. And, if none of that is true, that's ok. I'll have a wonderful eternal rest. I don't really know where I'm going with this honestly...I just don't understand all the animosity. People will be people. Of course they will willingly believe something they have no true knowledge of. That's no reason to pick on them. As a whole, we're not very intelligent.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Be intelligent and look at this from a different perspective.
They believe with all of their being that you will burn if they do not save you. They are trying to help, even if their efforts are misguided.
Yes it's annoying, but there's no reason to get flustered over it if you take the time to actually think about the dynamics of the situation.
Just ignore them and go about your business. No need to let it ruin your day. Be above it.
It's like getting angry over a stupid youtube comment. You mean there are dumb people in the world who will say stupid things?!? Shocking!
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I assure you Prole did not create this thread to solve an internal struggle. He created it lol@people between his college lectures.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Indeed. To claim such knowledge is laughable.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Words are symbols to represent ideas. To use them incorrectly leads people to think they "know" things. It leads to a lack of understanding and misrepresentation of the true meaning of these things. This is a bigger issue than most are aware of.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
To feel that you have knowledge of one thing over another is false. To prove anything as fact is just as difficult as proving the existence of god. This is primarily due to the scope of words like fact and truth by their very definition and accepting their implications in the fullest extent.
This is why I believe language to be flawed. I think one day we will advance in our means to communicate.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged