In my opinion only ignorant Christians take the bible at literal face value. Scientists and preachers both teach using metaphors. It's a simple way to make it so people can wrap their minds around concepts.
No. When a scientist says that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, that's not a metaphor. When a scientist says that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, that's not a metaphor.
And religion used to not be metaphors. The only reason they are now is because Science is learning about the universe. Religion has to backstep and say "Oh, haha, that seven day creation thing? We were kidding, it was actually a metaphor! Sorry for the miscommunication all these hundreds of years!"
Oh yes.... Science professors never use metaphors to explain scientific concepts to people just learning them? I guess all educators you encountered just assumed their students were on their same level.... damn what shitty teachers eh?
It is a fact that the flood never happened. It is a fact that creation as the Bible claims did not happen. It is a fact that the universe did not come into existence in 6 days. (Resting on the 7th.) These are facts, because we have evidnece that prove otherwise.
^^^And what evidence is that LinkX? And who is this 'we' you speak of? I've never seen any existence of your 'facts'. If it were so apparently clear that these events did not occur how come I've never seen evidence? Just saying...
Umpa and Wreaking Havoc make excellent and amusing points.
In my opinion only ignorant Christians take the bible at literal face value. Scientists and preachers both teach using metaphors. It's a simple way to make it so people can wrap their minds around concepts.
Please NEVER use literal statements as facts against religion.
So ignorant that they believe their ignorance is proof of knowledge. To once again quote Carl Sagan - "An atheist has to know alot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions athesim is very stupid."
As Carl Sagan (Yours - LinkX's apparent savior) said (whom btw was an agnostic ... not athiest): "The only way to disprove the existence of a god is to somehow prove an infinite universe." (which is just as impossible to prove as the concept of god itself).
I just wish you guys weren't bigger assholes than the christian extremists....
Premarital sex is DEFINATELY bad in all sects of Christianity, yet its practiced by staunch beliefers. Playing a video game is NOT the same as comitting a sin. The closest comparison you could come up with is comparing it to looking at pornography, but even that is not comparible. Pornography is normally for the goal of lusting over 2 other people engaging in sexual relations... and normally you wish you were one of those 2 (or several :-D) people doing the witnessed acts. Playing a video game does not wish you were doing that act in real life... or mean you believe in the religions of these games.
As for bringing up aethiests playing diablo ... Diablo originally had Christian over tones yes.... but that was shredded and replaced with a made up mythology / lore to appease to non Christian players. Several different religions believe in demons by the way... Think about the Djinns and Ifritis....
not trolling or anything. i honestly, truly and deeply wish i could kill hookers IRL like GTA.
I think you are gonna end up being a sociology / criminology case study in a few years. You'll end up being the next plot of criminal minds or dexter hahaha
coincidentally if you saw the last season of dexter they hint that the next killer is going to be the video game nerd guy...... >=D muahahah
No... i didn't see the most recent season yet... I'm on the last episode of the 2nd to last season.
Anyways - the point of my post was that video games are not necessarily a sin, and even if they were... they would really only be for those people that are adamant, staunch, conservative Christians.
I consider myself a Christian... others wouldn't. I have very liberal beliefs on God... but I am very certain there is one. However.. my definition of god is something more than the white bearded king.
Premarital sex is DEFINATELY bad in all sects of Christianity, yet its practiced by staunch beliefers. Playing a video game is NOT the same as comitting a sin. The closest comparison you could come up with is comparing it to looking at pornography, but even that is not comparible. Pornography is normally for the goal of lusting over 2 other people engaging in sexual relations... and normally you wish you were one of those 2 (or several :-D) people doing the witnessed acts. Playing a video game does not wish you were doing that act in real life... or mean you believe in the religions of these games.
As for bringing up aethiests playing diablo ... Diablo originally had Christian over tones yes.... but that was shredded and replaced with a made up mythology / lore to appease to non Christian players. Several different religions believe in demons by the way... Think about the Djinns and Ifritis....
not trolling or anything. i honestly, truly and deeply wish i could kill hookers IRL like GTA.
I think you are gonna end up being a sociology / criminology case study in a few years. You'll end up being the next plot of criminal minds or dexter hahaha
holy shit 855 posts on this, nearly as many pages that are in the new testament
im a catholic by birth, havent really practiced it as an adult no see im caught in the middle, i beleive in science, i beleive in evolution
but same time i do now and again think about a higher being, but that higher being is Mr Bill Murray
so yes my god is Bill Murray
I, too, am a man of science and adhere to scientific theory and factual approaches to life's questions. Based on true scientific method it is impossible to disprove the existence of anything, for that would require simultaneous observation of everything in every place at every point in time. Someone who approaches the existence of god, gods, or even alien life must do so with the realization that lack of evidence in no way proves lack of existence.
It is interesting that you state you "believe" in evolution--meaning you have faith in it. Evolution is still a theory, unproven, because it isn't possible TO prove it since none of us are capable of observing anything for millennia. The fossil record is suggestive, but not proof.
This thread's title is an interesting one. The OP must think himself an impressive force to be reckoned with within the realm of philosophy to demand that the metaphysical be demonstrated to him through HTML--that or he is a massive troll.
God is personal, ethereal, and has no objective measure but ony that which is felt inside, that which guides an individual's morals, their veiw of "good" and "evil".
The OP is searching for proof to settle an internal struggle. He/she does not wish to acknowledge the nagging thought that persists, the deep feeling that there is more to life than that which we can see/feel/touch/taste/or hear. As such the OP seeks to prove all others as inferior to elevate themselves and to quiet their own thoughts. I cannot help you there, OP, for discredit those who believe in God all you will, unfortunately for you, it is impossible to use science to disprove His/Her existence.
Atheism is a faith all it's own, but instead of believing in something that gives hope and a moral compass, it is a belief in nothing.
It has been said that those that believe in nothing will fall for anything.
I doubt you'll go back and read Proletaria (OP)'s posts but he made this whole thread as some sort of silly play thing for himself. Several times over the course of this thread he tells us that we cannot prove there is a god... but when asked for him to disprove him, he simply states thats not what this thread is about. He "wants to see if anyone has any good proof."
holy shit 855 posts on this, nearly as many pages that are in the new testament
im a catholic by birth, havent really practiced it as an adult no see im caught in the middle, i beleive in science, i beleive in evolution
but same time i do now and again think about a higher being, but that higher being is Mr Bill Murray
so yes my god is Bill Murray
ok let me ask you this and im not really an atheist, but for the people who do beleive in god (if you have a faith, i wont judge you) why do you play wow and diablo?
surely games like this will go against your beliefs and what you stand for
same for the atheists, diablo means devil, entity, spirit, but atheists dont beleive in spirits god, the devil and supernatural beings
but hye its a game and its ok...im not saying you are wrong, im just saying
Thats a rather silly post -
Premarital sex is DEFINATELY bad in all sects of Christianity, yet its practiced by staunch beliefers. Playing a video game is NOT the same as comitting a sin. The closest comparison you could come up with is comparing it to looking at pornography, but even that is not comparible. Pornography is normally for the goal of lusting over 2 other people engaging in sexual relations... and normally you wish you were one of those 2 (or several :-D) people doing the witnessed acts. Playing a video game does not wish you were doing that act in real life... or mean you believe in the religions of these games.
As for bringing up aethiests playing diablo ... Diablo originally had Christian over tones yes.... but that was shredded and replaced with a made up mythology / lore to appease to non Christian players. Several different religions believe in demons by the way... Think about the Djinns and Ifritis....
"An atheist has to know alot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions athesim is very stupid." - Carl Sagan
I figured since you guys (Proleteria and LinkX) get such rampant hard ons over Carl Sagan ... that I should just toss this one at ya.
Why does anyone need an explanation for any of this? You will believe what you want because you are given free will to do so. Which by the way was given to all of us by God the creator of all things. I choose to believe in God. You choose not to believe in God. There is no inbetween, you either believe or you do not. Now believe that your choice is correct and leave the rest of the world to die in misery as there is nothign you can to save them.
I am not a good christian as I do not have the patience to save people from eternal damnation which is a task commanded to all that believe by God himself. I will have failed as a chiristian and may one day join all those that turn from God in the eternal burning blazes of hell.
It matters because athiests believe they are "enlightened" and that they need to share this "enlightenment" with the rest of the world. Since most things can be proven with science (and most educated religious people these days believe god used science as a means to an end), they use science as a means to brush off all "religious evidence." Athiests, as you can tell by what Proleteria, Necrodrac and LinkX have been doing this whole thread... can be just as preachy as religious whack jobs. They just do it in a different form.
It boils down to the fact that if god uses/used science to govern/create the universe, you simply cannot prove that he exists without discovering indisputable metaphysical evidence. However, on the other side of the coin... being that science could very well have been created by god, athiests CANNOT disprove his/its existence either.
If god does not require an origin, then neither does the Universe.
Occams Razor.
God you keep fucking avoiding it LinkX. You are just as narrow minded as the christian zealot.
The universe requires an origin because the laws within the universe apply to it. God does not because the laws of the universe DO not apply to it. DONE DEAL. Stop using your flawed logic.
Well since no one corrected me I guess it's true. I'm Jesus Christ!
Well for all we know you could be. The bible does specify the return of Jesus Christ... and he isn't going to be the same personality or body that he was in 0 AD.
theoretically we can move faster than light, and enter null space-time, which would make us enter god realm, where laws dont apply. just cause something is in null time-space it still must have an origin even if we dont understand it.
ppl just try to overcomplicated things, always coming up with new theories to make god inaccessible, cause that's what god is suppose to be? well ofc, if it was accessible, it wouldnt be godly right? but the there's always new theories to make him inaccessible, but all the theories are just theories, and made up by man.
i think this is the same thing as what some scientists do. as an example i made earlier, there's this guy that discovered quasicrystals, but his superiors pretty much threw him out, cause his theory was *impossible* but then he got noble price for his discovery.
Religious ppl are like those superiors, that always wanna claim this or that is impossible, for whatever reason.
in case of religion you always wanna maintain the impossibility, cause otherwise you'd loose your religion. cause if god was tangible it would be scientific and not religious. but why do you wanna believe in whatever, just to believe?
if god is tangible, so be it. if it isnt, so be it. just dont apply overcomplicated rules, to keep it inaccessible.
D&D and DMs are man made concepts. and if you wanna have god as a DM, then DMs have a origin, and a world of their own. which we theoretically could visit, since there's the multiverse, and unknown planes in D&D. which theoretically could lead back to the DM.
Making god inaccessible is just a way to make humans powerless and insignificant. puppets to dance for god, which is ridiculous. and if god is this inaccessible, overpowered god, and humans so insignificant etc, what's our purpose?
a perfect god doesnt need us. it's us that need god, which just makes god our man made invention, to give ourselves a destination after death.
but it just over complicates stuff, and alienate ppl from each other.
if god was real and wanted something from us, he'd make sure everyone knew without a doubt, which isnt the case. so there's this plethora of gods, and all religions think their god/gods are the true god/gods, while everyone else is wrong. then make up stories, so you can punish the non-believers. if god is so concerned about it, he can just show himself. but then christians over complicate stuff again, and say you have been warned in this 2000year old book, read it, or burn in hell for your ignorance.
im wondering too, why ppl want the bible to be true, since it's so full of rape, murder and punishment. sounds more like satanism to me.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of what I said AT ALL. I will however... take the time to restate this one more time:
Time is mechanic/ dimension that is part of our universe. Everything that we see and know... is dependent on time. The universe, the big bang, even you and I ... require an origin as we fall within the realm of time. We as humans always attempt to say that god must have an origin due to the fact that we think with what we know. We are trying to apply time to something that existed before the dimension of time (god).
Your statement about how DM's are man made creations is junk. You didn't take from the metaphor what was presented to you.... and instead tried to apply concepts from our universe to it. I will restate this directly so hopefully you get it: Dungeon Masters in D&D are not subject to whatever laws or rules they implement into the world they are building, because the world they are building is not their reality. Time is part of our reality, and for all we know (and we literally will NEVER know) god is outside of time.
If you seriously take the time to read the genesis laid out in the bible (I am not saying the bible is right... I am just using this as a way to look at creation metaphors), you would see that 7 day metaphor could very easily fit to explain the big bang, the bible even states that god is outside of time.
You understand the fundamental concept of mainstream string theory i'm assuming, correct?
I have mixed feelings about String Theory. People like Michio Kaku make it sound a lot more romantic then it really is. (Not to say he's wrong or bad, I absolutely love the guy.)
If string theory, or something similiar to it really is true... then why couldn't "god" be able to be a "living conciousness" that is essentially "part of the universe" ?
We would still be subject to the laws of the Universe. Just because the laws change doesn't mean that you can ignore them.
Likewise, any supernatural being would also be subject to the laws in exactly the same fashion.
I am not denying that they would still be subject to he laws. However, think about the most recent Tron Movie. Think about how the creator made a near copy (except in god's case exact) of himself in the universe he created. This copy had the knowledge and the power to manipulate his reality, but was created by his "god" from the other reality.
Otherwise, as I understand about string theory... the governing laws of the universe (relativity, quantum dynamics, etc) are all dependant on these vibrating dimensions . If a being can gain the ability to manipulate the frequencies of these dimensions... he can manipulate the laws of the universe and therefore not adhere to them.
LinkX ... by continuing to bring up Deism versus Theism are you simply trying to infer that in order for God to interact with the universe, he must therefore adhere to the laws of the universe?
No, I am infering that you have given no proof that a THEISTIC god exists.
And no, I will straight up say that for any being, god or mortal, to interact with a physical object, it must be at least temporarily physical and temporarily in the realm that the physical object exists in.
You understand the fundamental concept of mainstream string theory i'm assuming, correct?
Depending on the particular theory, the universe is made up of an infinite (or near it) amount of micro folding dimensions. These dimensions "vibrate", and depending on the frequency of these vibrations determines everything in the universe including: light, quantums, quarks, gravity, etc.
If string theory is true and the universe as we know it is made up, and the laws of the universe are designing through these vibrating dimensions... then theoretically if mankin spent 100,000,000 years researching it... we might someday achieve the ability to manipulate these dimensions. By doing so we could store the information that is our conciousness in a free floating form ... processing information directly from the universe... theoretically we could manipulate the universe to our will... and quite literally be everywhere at once.
If string theory, or something similiar to it really is true... then why couldn't "god" be able to be a "living conciousness" that is essentially "part of the universe" ?
What if the Diest god in making the universe transplanted his conciousness... or a copy of it within the universe?
I dont believe there is a God. I don't care if you believe there is a God or not. As long as you don't try to convince me there is one (or 2 or a thousand), we'll get along just fine. Leave God out of all your conversations with me and around me. Otherwise, believe whatever you want. It doesn't affect me in any way. I just don't care.
Interesting thread to post this in... considering the topic name is " Prove to me that your God exists."
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Oh yes.... Science professors never use metaphors to explain scientific concepts to people just learning them? I guess all educators you encountered just assumed their students were on their same level.... damn what shitty teachers eh?
In my opinion only ignorant Christians take the bible at literal face value. Scientists and preachers both teach using metaphors. It's a simple way to make it so people can wrap their minds around concepts.
Please NEVER use literal statements as facts against religion.
So ignorant that they believe their ignorance is proof of knowledge. To once again quote Carl Sagan - "An atheist has to know alot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions athesim is very stupid."
As Carl Sagan (Yours - LinkX's apparent savior) said (whom btw was an agnostic ... not athiest): "The only way to disprove the existence of a god is to somehow prove an infinite universe." (which is just as impossible to prove as the concept of god itself).
I just wish you guys weren't bigger assholes than the christian extremists....
No... i didn't see the most recent season yet... I'm on the last episode of the 2nd to last season.
Anyways - the point of my post was that video games are not necessarily a sin, and even if they were... they would really only be for those people that are adamant, staunch, conservative Christians.
I consider myself a Christian... others wouldn't. I have very liberal beliefs on God... but I am very certain there is one. However.. my definition of god is something more than the white bearded king.
I think you are gonna end up being a sociology / criminology case study in a few years. You'll end up being the next plot of criminal minds or dexter hahaha
I doubt you'll go back and read Proletaria (OP)'s posts but he made this whole thread as some sort of silly play thing for himself. Several times over the course of this thread he tells us that we cannot prove there is a god... but when asked for him to disprove him, he simply states thats not what this thread is about. He "wants to see if anyone has any good proof."
Thats a rather silly post -
Premarital sex is DEFINATELY bad in all sects of Christianity, yet its practiced by staunch beliefers. Playing a video game is NOT the same as comitting a sin. The closest comparison you could come up with is comparing it to looking at pornography, but even that is not comparible. Pornography is normally for the goal of lusting over 2 other people engaging in sexual relations... and normally you wish you were one of those 2 (or several :-D) people doing the witnessed acts. Playing a video game does not wish you were doing that act in real life... or mean you believe in the religions of these games.
As for bringing up aethiests playing diablo ... Diablo originally had Christian over tones yes.... but that was shredded and replaced with a made up mythology / lore to appease to non Christian players. Several different religions believe in demons by the way... Think about the Djinns and Ifritis....
I figured since you guys (Proleteria and LinkX) get such rampant hard ons over Carl Sagan ... that I should just toss this one at ya.
It matters because athiests believe they are "enlightened" and that they need to share this "enlightenment" with the rest of the world. Since most things can be proven with science (and most educated religious people these days believe god used science as a means to an end), they use science as a means to brush off all "religious evidence." Athiests, as you can tell by what Proleteria, Necrodrac and LinkX have been doing this whole thread... can be just as preachy as religious whack jobs. They just do it in a different form.
It boils down to the fact that if god uses/used science to govern/create the universe, you simply cannot prove that he exists without discovering indisputable metaphysical evidence. However, on the other side of the coin... being that science could very well have been created by god, athiests CANNOT disprove his/its existence either.
God you keep fucking avoiding it LinkX. You are just as narrow minded as the christian zealot.
The universe requires an origin because the laws within the universe apply to it. God does not because the laws of the universe DO not apply to it. DONE DEAL. Stop using your flawed logic.
Well for all we know you could be. The bible does specify the return of Jesus Christ... and he isn't going to be the same personality or body that he was in 0 AD.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of what I said AT ALL. I will however... take the time to restate this one more time:
Time is mechanic/ dimension that is part of our universe. Everything that we see and know... is dependent on time. The universe, the big bang, even you and I ... require an origin as we fall within the realm of time. We as humans always attempt to say that god must have an origin due to the fact that we think with what we know. We are trying to apply time to something that existed before the dimension of time (god).
Your statement about how DM's are man made creations is junk. You didn't take from the metaphor what was presented to you.... and instead tried to apply concepts from our universe to it. I will restate this directly so hopefully you get it: Dungeon Masters in D&D are not subject to whatever laws or rules they implement into the world they are building, because the world they are building is not their reality. Time is part of our reality, and for all we know (and we literally will NEVER know) god is outside of time.
If you seriously take the time to read the genesis laid out in the bible (I am not saying the bible is right... I am just using this as a way to look at creation metaphors), you would see that 7 day metaphor could very easily fit to explain the big bang, the bible even states that god is outside of time.
I am not denying that they would still be subject to he laws. However, think about the most recent Tron Movie. Think about how the creator made a near copy (except in god's case exact) of himself in the universe he created. This copy had the knowledge and the power to manipulate his reality, but was created by his "god" from the other reality.
Otherwise, as I understand about string theory... the governing laws of the universe (relativity, quantum dynamics, etc) are all dependant on these vibrating dimensions . If a being can gain the ability to manipulate the frequencies of these dimensions... he can manipulate the laws of the universe and therefore not adhere to them.
You understand the fundamental concept of mainstream string theory i'm assuming, correct?
Depending on the particular theory, the universe is made up of an infinite (or near it) amount of micro folding dimensions. These dimensions "vibrate", and depending on the frequency of these vibrations determines everything in the universe including: light, quantums, quarks, gravity, etc.
If string theory is true and the universe as we know it is made up, and the laws of the universe are designing through these vibrating dimensions... then theoretically if mankin spent 100,000,000 years researching it... we might someday achieve the ability to manipulate these dimensions. By doing so we could store the information that is our conciousness in a free floating form ... processing information directly from the universe... theoretically we could manipulate the universe to our will... and quite literally be everywhere at once.
If string theory, or something similiar to it really is true... then why couldn't "god" be able to be a "living conciousness" that is essentially "part of the universe" ?
What if the Diest god in making the universe transplanted his conciousness... or a copy of it within the universe?
Interesting thread to post this in... considering the topic name is " Prove to me that your God exists."