That depends on the persons individual interpretation of self defense also though, I'm not going to condemn anyone.
That's exactly why I said what I said, I knew you'd turn it into "You hate the troops!" Self defense means different things to different people. I knew you'd go there.
I'm not going to be replying here anymore. You can swear up and down you don't hate Christianity but I know for a fact through other threads that you do, you've said it, you've even listed reasons why.
Which is fine, I don't care. I just think it's impractical and biased to use someone like Hitler as a example when you want to condemn Christianity when there are plenty of other people who more closely followed the bible, that were just as terrible. You just have the urge to associate Christianity with probably the most evil person in recent history.
That's fine though, nothing I say is going to change your view on it so I'm done.
So then, you agree that the passages you quoted have nothing to do with the conversation, or with whether or not Hitler's spiritual actions were in any way in opposition to his Christian faith? If Christians are taught to follow the New Testament instead of the Old Testament, then either you have some passages in the New Testament that says he cannot (Which I do not know of, and he may not of known of) or it is completely permissible in the Christian faith to play with wee gee boards and go see psychics and other such things.
The new testament talks about magic as well.
Acts 8:9-11 Now a certain man named Simon had previously practised magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he was someone great. 10All of them, from the least to the greatest, listened to him eagerly, saying, ‘This man is the power of God that is called Great.’ 11And they listened eagerly to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.
Talking to the sorcerer.
Acts 8:21 You have no part or share in this, for your heart is not right before God.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21envy,* drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Acts 19:18-19 Also many of those who became believers confessed and disclosed their practices. 19A number of those who practised magic collected their books and burned them publicly; when the value of these books* was calculated, it was found to come to fifty thousand silver coins. 20So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.
Revelations 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes,* so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practises falsehood.
There are plenty of instances too in the New Testament, I just happened to grab ones from the old the first time.
in the bible it says if you take away or add to the bible you are condemned. so basically so if your picking and choosing what to believe/not to believe or what books to be in then your automatically f*cked.
In the new or old testament? That's probably the old, which isn't exclusive to Christianity. If you followed only the old testament well you wouldn't be Christian since Jesus wasn't even born and other religions use it as well.
If that was the case we'd be murdering our brothers who aren't atheist or if your son is lazy you call him a drunk and have the town stone him to death. Also giants and unicorns are real.
Link that stuff was in the old testament, Christians are taught to follow the New Testament, where Jesus cleansed all food. Yes infact we do pick and choose that's what Christianity is. If you chose not to pick and choose then Christianity wouldn't exist. The old testament and new testament are vastly different.
Also doctors work with science not with supernatural mystic powers as far as I know. Whether that is against the bible is up to the branch of Christianity. You lump Christianity together like its all a 100% literal interpretation of the bible. There are varying degrees and different interpretations that's why there are so many branches.
And no I'm a vegan and had beef nachos for dinner.
Solomon wasn't Christian since Christianity didn't exist at the time, he was Jewish.
Lev. 19:26 "`Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. "`Do not practice divination or sorcery.
Lev. 19:26 " 31 "`Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God."
Lev. 20:6 "`I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people."
Deut. 4:19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars --all the heavenly array --do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Deut. 17:2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, 4and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.
Deut. 18:9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
Judg. 2:12 They forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They provoked the LORD to anger 13because they forsook him and served Baal and the Ashtoreths.
There are plenty more but if you're saying it has to be one of the ten commandments to count then that's ridiculous.
Chrsitianity like most other religions is about not worshiping another god, object, or being and not preying or putting faith into false things. Which Hitler did by putting his faith not in God (or not just God), and into sorcery/witchcraft/artifacts/demons/psychics all of the other stuff, which is in stark opposition to the overlying theme of a religion and Christianity.
I guess none of that matters though if you just want shock value by saying Hitler was a Christian. From now on I'm a vegan that eats meat.
Nope, but unlike the Hitler issue or the Praying issue, eating a hamburger is in absolute opposition to being Vegan.
As Richard Dawkins said, we can only look at his upbringing and his personal claims. For us to claim to know what was in his heart would be tantamount to claiming to know the mind of god.
Dealing with the occult is in direct opposition with the bible. I don't care what Richard Dawkins says, if you're dabbling in every piece of occult intelligence you can get your hands on, you're not Christian. If you molest a child, you're not Christian. This isn't to say you can't atone for your sins and become a Christian again but it's clear he didn't do that since he committed suicide.
You just like to use Hitler as a Christian scapegoat. "Look how bad Christianity is! Hitler was Christian!" Find someone who actually claimed to be Christian and at least somewhat practiced it. Pick Jim Jones, or the guy that founded the Heaven's Gate cult, Jeffrey Dahmer, David Berkowitz, Stalin, or Ted Bundy.
They all killed people, the bible, especially the old testament condones killing people under certain circumstances. It DOES NOT EVER condone worshiping false idols, trying to gain the power of god, trying to converse with supernatural beings and demons, or any of the other occult stuff Hitler was a part of. Don't make him the poster child of Christianity gone wrong just to suit your needs its a far, far stretch and there are plenty of other people that fit the bill.
We never came to a conclusion on Adolf Hitler's true views. And it is impossible to say that he felt this way or that way in his heart. The same argument could be used with Osama Bin Laden. He wasn't a "true Muslim", he just used Islam to further his goals. The Pope and the priests were not "true Catholics", they just used Catholicism to molest little children. Etc. All we can do is take his Catholic upbringing and his repeated use of Jesus and God in his books and speeches and accept that he made the claim that he was Christian, and furthermore Roman Catholic.
Therefore, he was Christian.
The Bible doesn't say commune with demons, try to contact aliens, cult rituals, prove the lineage of the Aryan race came from Atlantis and find magical artifacts.
The Quran, (as some people follow it) does say to kill in the name of God. A holy war. (as does the Bible.)
The bible doesn't say to have sex with young boys (only young girls ironically).
None of that is a good argument. I can claim I'm a cow if I eat hay and act like one, but then when I have a steak and a can of coke does that make me a cow still?
Or something a little less absurd. If I claim to be atheist, 100%, I do not accept the existence of God but then I pray, am I still an atheist?
If I'm a vegan but I eat hamburgers once a week, does that make me a vegan still?
When people say one thing and do another you're no longer in that group. When you are in a religion and you do things in STARK contrast to what that religion teaches, you're not really part of it. I believe he was RAISED Christian.
We already discussed that in this thread, Hitler would have worshipped a magic shoe if he thought it would give him power. He was tampering with all sorts of the occult in a attempt to gain power.
Well maybe I'm misunderstanding something, what other choice is there? A being created the initial matter/energy, or nothing created it. At least at this point I don't see there is another answer, until science progresses and possibly finds an answer other than that.
I don't think there is an answer right now, but that doesn't mean that we have the group of all possible answers in-hand. If you want to say "nothing," created the universe and be more poetic about it, you might suggest that the universe is eternal, just in diffirent forms. I feel that is just as plausible as any arguments of causality and does not insert ugly words like "nothing."
Hmm well I meant no prime source being. It could be eternal or it was created on it's own in some way. I didn't mean for nothing to sound offensive like I shrug off this belief completely. It's of course very possible. Like I said I just choose to believe in a being like you choose NOT to.
It seems like at the base level the more logic minded people will choose atheism and the more creative minded will choose a creator of some sort.
Not that either one is wrong or bad.
Perhaps I'm mistaken though. Was it logic that drove you ultimately to your beliefs? I agree logically there's no real reason to include God, but I also don't see a reason not to. We have choices. I don't subscribe myself to any singular God or being.
I believe in God and Heaven and Hell, but, I do not find this outcome to be the most interesting outcome. I actually find reincarnation to be quite facinating. As much as I may believe and want to go to heaven, in the end I think it would be a rather boring eternity. Same goes for hell.
Yeah but reincarnation involves a higher power too doesn't it? Either way it's definitely interesting.
I can't fathom why you would assume it's simply god or nothing, but I thank you for giving an honest answer. I truly appreciate it.
Well maybe I'm misunderstanding something, what other choice is there? A being created the initial matter/energy, or nothing created it. At least at this point I don't see there is another answer, until science progresses and possibly finds an answer other than that.
What makes it the most interesting and appealing choice for me? I dunno think of it like a mystery, because that's what life is. At the end of reading a good mystery book or story, you find out who was behind it all (usually) and that's a satisfying conclusion. If I played my way through for example Diablo 3, only to find out it was nothing. There was absolutely no entity behind the story or the demons, it'd be a let down. It's just a more entertaining idea to me personally I suppose. It makes for a better story.
Agreed ^^ I believe in the Roman catholic God, which do you believe in Dae?
None in specific, I just prefer to think that there is a greater being not necessarily even a caring one.
The world just seems to fit together so perfect for me to want to believe it was all chance and chaos.
@pro, Yes I realize it's illogical and it's unnecessary to add any god or... source being into the equation but I just like to believe that. It's just a preference I guess. Maybe it's just the mystery of such a being and wondering what it was like that's intriguing.
Well I think I've explained my thoughts before, but to steer it back on topic I'll post again.
To me it comes down to the very basics. I look at the world and see how advanced everything is from the structure of atoms to DNA to earthworms to the perfect conditions that allowed life to exist on Earth.
Now when I ask myself was this all an accident? I just can't believe yes it was. I know it's possible but to me for some reason it seems more possible that some being created all this in one way or another.
Could be an alien, could be a god, could be the flying spaghetti monster if you want to be cynical about it. I just think at the base level rather than matter and energy being created out of nothing, something created the matter and energy at the very least. The world just seems far too complex down to every last detail for it to have been chance. Of course there is still the chance of that.
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Wise ElderThat's exactly why I said what I said, I knew you'd turn it into "You hate the troops!" Self defense means different things to different people. I knew you'd go there.
I'm not going to be replying here anymore. You can swear up and down you don't hate Christianity but I know for a fact through other threads that you do, you've said it, you've even listed reasons why.
Which is fine, I don't care. I just think it's impractical and biased to use someone like Hitler as a example when you want to condemn Christianity when there are plenty of other people who more closely followed the bible, that were just as terrible. You just have the urge to associate Christianity with probably the most evil person in recent history.
That's fine though, nothing I say is going to change your view on it so I'm done.
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Wise ElderThe new testament talks about magic as well.
Talking to the sorcerer.
There are plenty of instances too in the New Testament, I just happened to grab ones from the old the first time.
Yup unicorns.
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Wise ElderIn the new or old testament? That's probably the old, which isn't exclusive to Christianity. If you followed only the old testament well you wouldn't be Christian since Jesus wasn't even born and other religions use it as well.
If that was the case we'd be murdering our brothers who aren't atheist or if your son is lazy you call him a drunk and have the town stone him to death. Also giants and unicorns are real.
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Wise ElderAlso doctors work with science not with supernatural mystic powers as far as I know. Whether that is against the bible is up to the branch of Christianity. You lump Christianity together like its all a 100% literal interpretation of the bible. There are varying degrees and different interpretations that's why there are so many branches.
And no I'm a vegan and had beef nachos for dinner.
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Wise ElderThere are plenty more but if you're saying it has to be one of the ten commandments to count then that's ridiculous.
Chrsitianity like most other religions is about not worshiping another god, object, or being and not preying or putting faith into false things. Which Hitler did by putting his faith not in God (or not just God), and into sorcery/witchcraft/artifacts/demons/psychics all of the other stuff, which is in stark opposition to the overlying theme of a religion and Christianity.
I guess none of that matters though if you just want shock value by saying Hitler was a Christian. From now on I'm a vegan that eats meat.
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Wise ElderDealing with the occult is in direct opposition with the bible. I don't care what Richard Dawkins says, if you're dabbling in every piece of occult intelligence you can get your hands on, you're not Christian. If you molest a child, you're not Christian. This isn't to say you can't atone for your sins and become a Christian again but it's clear he didn't do that since he committed suicide.
You just like to use Hitler as a Christian scapegoat. "Look how bad Christianity is! Hitler was Christian!" Find someone who actually claimed to be Christian and at least somewhat practiced it. Pick Jim Jones, or the guy that founded the Heaven's Gate cult, Jeffrey Dahmer, David Berkowitz, Stalin, or Ted Bundy.
They all killed people, the bible, especially the old testament condones killing people under certain circumstances. It DOES NOT EVER condone worshiping false idols, trying to gain the power of god, trying to converse with supernatural beings and demons, or any of the other occult stuff Hitler was a part of. Don't make him the poster child of Christianity gone wrong just to suit your needs its a far, far stretch and there are plenty of other people that fit the bill.
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Wise ElderThe Bible doesn't say commune with demons, try to contact aliens, cult rituals, prove the lineage of the Aryan race came from Atlantis and find magical artifacts.
The Quran, (as some people follow it) does say to kill in the name of God. A holy war. (as does the Bible.)
The bible doesn't say to have sex with young boys (only young girls ironically).
None of that is a good argument. I can claim I'm a cow if I eat hay and act like one, but then when I have a steak and a can of coke does that make me a cow still?
Or something a little less absurd. If I claim to be atheist, 100%, I do not accept the existence of God but then I pray, am I still an atheist?
If I'm a vegan but I eat hamburgers once a week, does that make me a vegan still?
When people say one thing and do another you're no longer in that group. When you are in a religion and you do things in STARK contrast to what that religion teaches, you're not really part of it. I believe he was RAISED Christian.
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Wise ElderMisleading.
We already discussed that in this thread, Hitler would have worshipped a magic shoe if he thought it would give him power. He was tampering with all sorts of the occult in a attempt to gain power.
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Wise ElderHmm well I meant no prime source being. It could be eternal or it was created on it's own in some way. I didn't mean for nothing to sound offensive like I shrug off this belief completely. It's of course very possible. Like I said I just choose to believe in a being like you choose NOT to.
It seems like at the base level the more logic minded people will choose atheism and the more creative minded will choose a creator of some sort.
Not that either one is wrong or bad.
Perhaps I'm mistaken though. Was it logic that drove you ultimately to your beliefs? I agree logically there's no real reason to include God, but I also don't see a reason not to. We have choices. I don't subscribe myself to any singular God or being.
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Wise ElderYeah but reincarnation involves a higher power too doesn't it? Either way it's definitely interesting.
Well maybe I'm misunderstanding something, what other choice is there? A being created the initial matter/energy, or nothing created it. At least at this point I don't see there is another answer, until science progresses and possibly finds an answer other than that.
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Wise ElderNone in specific, I just prefer to think that there is a greater being not necessarily even a caring one.
The world just seems to fit together so perfect for me to want to believe it was all chance and chaos.
@pro, Yes I realize it's illogical and it's unnecessary to add any god or... source being into the equation but I just like to believe that. It's just a preference I guess. Maybe it's just the mystery of such a being and wondering what it was like that's intriguing.
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Wise ElderTo me it comes down to the very basics. I look at the world and see how advanced everything is from the structure of atoms to DNA to earthworms to the perfect conditions that allowed life to exist on Earth.
Now when I ask myself was this all an accident? I just can't believe yes it was. I know it's possible but to me for some reason it seems more possible that some being created all this in one way or another.
Could be an alien, could be a god, could be the flying spaghetti monster if you want to be cynical about it. I just think at the base level rather than matter and energy being created out of nothing, something created the matter and energy at the very least. The world just seems far too complex down to every last detail for it to have been chance. Of course there is still the chance of that.