I'm on a wide resolution and I think that the full width looks better still, so I guess that'll work. Would it be possible, though, to just make both the synergy and build boxes take up half the width so that they aren't different sizes? Because that makes it look weirder than anything else I think. Or would that cause problems with different resolutions?
Also, with the synergy box a little wider, there would be more separation between the "Receives From" and "Provides For" columns, which would make it look better and read easier I think.
Hmm, see, I was thinking of like a whole separate box for it to the right of the synergy box. Not just adding another section, if you will, to the synergy box. That way it'll fill in more.
I added it to the sandbox, though I'd like to have a little bit of separation between the two tables, if that's do-able. But otherwise, this is more the way I was picturing it.
I've hatched an idea for the blank space to the right of the synergy box. What do you think about another box titled something along the lines of "Builds Utilizing [skill]" and then linking to any/all builds that use that particular skill, either as a primary attack or an important synergy?
Those are the images that all the current skill pages use; browse through them and you'll see 'em.
What purpose do you think the colors serve? I know they differ between different "types" (fire, cold, poison/bone, etc.) but that info is already going to be present higher than these images on the page (in the tables) with the new design. What I'd like to see is to just make the skill in question white instead of grey. This is how it appears in game (when a skill becomes available) and I think it would be more than sufficient to set it apart from the other skills, without looking so gaudy.
The only other thing I've thought of is another partial line of skill progression, to get it up to 35-40 or so, and then the synergies to the right of that, since it wouldn't fill up the entire screen in that situation, but I don't know how well that would work with different resolutions.
Also, one other thing I was thinking of: do we really need the level requirements of the prereq spells listed? It seems fairly unnecessary to me...
Put both up there. It looks disorganized to me, I prefer the top-down list even though it isn't the same as the rest of the table. Also added some black background, in face it was that assymetry that caused it.
Hmm...I have to agree that the horizontal design looks a little messy, I just don't like the big blank space with the top-down list. I tried moving the tree image and the "skill" image up to fill some of it, and neither looks any good. I suppose I can live with the blank space to the right of it. :thumbsup: However, I definitely think it looks better without the black background in that blank space.
1.) The top part: For the most part I think it looks really good, but I have a few suggestions. First, I think the dividing lines between the spell name/description and the prerequisites should be removed. They're not really dividing anything that should be divided (i.e. "Prerequisites" from the prerequisites) and they won't line up neatly with the dividers on the bottom row. Right now, the divider between "Cold Spells" and the Required Level is just slightly misaligned with the divider above it, and it looks weird. Other skill trees that are longer will just make it look like a puzzle or something. Also, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think we should have the damage type in the top area. I think that should just be removed, and instead the table itself should say "[Type] Damage". Otherwise, I likes it.
2.) The skill progression tables look pretty good, but should we maybe look at doing alternating colors to improve readability? Also, a fairly minor thing, but maybe instead of "with maximum synergies" we should have "with all synergies maximized", since that's a little bit clearer.
3.) The synergies box: instead of having "recieves from" and "provides for" in their own columns, I think we should have them in their own rows, with the synergies listed horizontally (essentially like the prereqs at the top), which would look more in line with the rest of the design.
4.) Everything below the table I think looks very nice; I like how that turned out.
Well, obviously the Meteor isn't going to be falling across the entire screen, but how would it be done then? Would it just be an animation of the burning patch after it hits? Wouldn't it be a better representation of the skill if we had a screenshot that had a burning patch on the ground with a second meteor falling? Like I said, animations have the potential to be cool, but I think that we'll be better able to accurately represent what the skill actually does in a screenshot than with an animation. Plus, it's more fun and creative.
We should be consistent with the layout of the pages. All skills should have their skill icons in the same places, maybe inside the template but not necessarily.
Yeah, I suppose; maybe we could just have the skill icon above the screenshot in the picture cell for actives, and then obviously just the icon for passives.
A screenshot of the skill, or better yet an animation of it, could just as well fit below the actual template like the skill tree image.
An animation is something I thought of too, my only concern with it is that it might be too obnoxious/distracting. Otherwise, I would totally be down for it. For some skills, like Inferno, I think it would be fine, but things like projectiles and other skills that produce a lot of movement in one way or another I think would be annoying.
Right, the files will treat skill progression as if no prereqs have been acquired, but this may be overly complicated to incorporate.
Don't the equations in the files have expressions for synergy bonuses in them though? And if not, I'm sure we could do it manually. I mean it's not too difficult...if something has a 7% damage synergy bonus, for example, you just take the base damage and multiply it by 1.07. Cake.
That sounds like a great idea, which I think we should incorporate. I don't know how increased skill stats are calculated though, so unless anyone else does, this will have to be a future feature to incorporate at a later date.
I was hoping that could be found in the equations as well. <_<
I think it's a good idea (which is why I suggested it obviously :tongue:), but I'm a little concerned with it making the template cluttered. Do you think you'd be able to come up with something that'll look nice and not be too confusing to read for this?
Oh, also, the other thing I was thinking of was general information for each skill. Here's my take on what we have presently:
Class: I'm not sure this is entirely necessary. It should be pretty obvious.
Skill Tree: Fine with this.
Required Level: Fine with this.
Damage Type: Should be in the table. Currently, skills just say "Damage" and then list the damage of each skill level. We should just enter "[Type] Damage" in the cell to begin with (i.e. Magic Damage or Physical Damage, etc.)
Cast Delay: Should only be included on spells that actually have one.
Prerequisites: Already covered.
I think this info would look good in a cell that sits on top of the table and spans the entire length, or else outside the table entirely.
So a couple more points that I've come up with on this:
1.) I'm thinking it should be pretty easy to modify the monster design to accommodate the skills, though when I tried, it became clear that I'm not the man to do it. I'll start with the picture cell: I think we should keep that and add a screenshot of the skill in action (for active skills) and maybe just the skill icon for passive skills. For the rest, basically what I'm thinking is to have the top row of cells divided horizontally in two (sort of like the resistances area is now) with the top division being "Skill Level" and the bottom division subdivided (again, as with the different types of resistances) and numbered for each skill level. Then on the left side, to the right of the picture cell, we have the applicable stats (mana cost, damage, duration, life, what have you), each on their own row, with the stats obviously entered across under the skill level number. For prereqs and synergies, I'm thinking either their own cell on the bottom of the table or along the right side of it, or just completely outside of the table. Hope that wasn't too difficult to follow. :rolleyes:
2.) How are we planning to treat synergies? I'm assuming the files will treat the spells as though they have no points in any synergy, but I think that we should include the 1-point synergy bonus for all synergies that are also prereqs, since the spell will naturally have at least one point in its prereq(s) at all spell levels.
3.) This might start to get a little tricky, but I think for all spells that scale with difficulty (i.e. Golems, Bone Wall/Prison, etc.) we should have Normal/NM/Hell subdivisions for each skill level, so they will show accurate numbers for each difficulty level.
4.) If we decide to keep the skill tree image, I think a good idea for that would be to float:right it at the bottom of the page, underneath the skill tables, where the Description/Lore/References headers are. That way it won't interfere with the tables or force us to make the tables shorter, but will still be on the page.
Ha. I just checked skills.txt, and it's all there.
Wonderful :thumbsup: I was going to say something else about "or if it's directly from the game files," but I forgot.
Anyway, I can't seem to find any skill.txt in my D2 folder, but if we're able to figure out what all those variables mean and get all the formulae out, I'd be happy to crunch some numbers. :wallbash:
Why don't we do a table that has the information needed and ease of use so the viewers can do the math themselves? To see what I mean, take a look at a sample skill table in the link.
I don't think that's a good idea. It's not user-friendly to make them draw the conclusion(s) themselves. If we know what the skill progression is, why wouldn't we just do the math for the user and then put the numbers in the table?
EDIT: Also, it's probably not wise to assume that any or all skills will follow a formula for their progression, diminishing returns or no. That could (and most likely would) lead to abundant misinformation. Unless it's an official "here's how it works" from a blue, speculation isn't a good idea.
Really? I think the highlighting of the icons is good, especially the fact that they are different colors. Red for fire, blue for cold, green and white for poison and bone.
Yeah, like I said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, I just think it could be done better. As it is, it's certainly eye-catching, but I just think it looks goofy and gaudy. Unfortunately, I haven't come up with much in the way of alternatives, except perhaps just dimming/dulling the rest of the tree and highlighting the skill in question, sort of like on the Skill calc. I also thing we could make the thing smaller regardless.
One thing that might be cool, though I don't know if it's possible, is to make the individual pictures in each tree link to that skill page, so the tree has a little more functionality and is a little bit less of just dead space (for the most part). I know that'll have to be a whole design thing and not just link to an image, but...
Then we run into the problem of smaller resolutions. With the skill tree to the right, the space that can be utilized as 1024 pixels is often just about right. And the wider skills are greatly compressed on smaller resolutions.
A page-wide solution should be possible to achieve, especially given the success with the new monster template, but if we keep the skill tree image it might be a little tight. Unless we want to build on the height, but that generates weird pages for wide resolutions.
Yes, that's something I thought of, but I figured I'd leave that to the people who know more about it to solve.
at point 2 the arreat summit does not have the skill data to 40 and thus if we did do that we would have to do it by hand.
No, we will have to get it from the files. Will be much more time-consuming, as I don't know how all skills handle their damage progression. I know some are easy to figure out, but not if all are. It will take time to be sure.
It could also be pulled from the skill calc, assuming that 1.) It gets fixed someday and 2.)The information on it is correct (which I'm not sure it is 100%...I've pointed out to Superceb that Poison Nova's minimum damage exceeds its maximum damage beginning at Level 29, for instance).
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Also, with the synergy box a little wider, there would be more separation between the "Receives From" and "Provides For" columns, which would make it look better and read easier I think.
I added it to the sandbox, though I'd like to have a little bit of separation between the two tables, if that's do-able. But otherwise, this is more the way I was picturing it.
What purpose do you think the colors serve? I know they differ between different "types" (fire, cold, poison/bone, etc.) but that info is already going to be present higher than these images on the page (in the tables) with the new design. What I'd like to see is to just make the skill in question white instead of grey. This is how it appears in game (when a skill becomes available) and I think it would be more than sufficient to set it apart from the other skills, without looking so gaudy.
The only other thing I've thought of is another partial line of skill progression, to get it up to 35-40 or so, and then the synergies to the right of that, since it wouldn't fill up the entire screen in that situation, but I don't know how well that would work with different resolutions.
Also, one other thing I was thinking of: do we really need the level requirements of the prereq spells listed? It seems fairly unnecessary to me...
That's fine, it was definitely the prereq divider that was causing the problem I had, looks much better now.
Hmm...I have to agree that the horizontal design looks a little messy, I just don't like the big blank space with the top-down list. I tried moving the tree image and the "skill" image up to fill some of it, and neither looks any good. I suppose I can live with the blank space to the right of it. :thumbsup: However, I definitely think it looks better without the black background in that blank space.
1.) The top part: For the most part I think it looks really good, but I have a few suggestions. First, I think the dividing lines between the spell name/description and the prerequisites should be removed. They're not really dividing anything that should be divided (i.e. "Prerequisites" from the prerequisites) and they won't line up neatly with the dividers on the bottom row. Right now, the divider between "Cold Spells" and the Required Level is just slightly misaligned with the divider above it, and it looks weird. Other skill trees that are longer will just make it look like a puzzle or something. Also, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think we should have the damage type in the top area. I think that should just be removed, and instead the table itself should say "[Type] Damage". Otherwise, I likes it.
2.) The skill progression tables look pretty good, but should we maybe look at doing alternating colors to improve readability? Also, a fairly minor thing, but maybe instead of "with maximum synergies" we should have "with all synergies maximized", since that's a little bit clearer.
3.) The synergies box: instead of having "recieves from" and "provides for" in their own columns, I think we should have them in their own rows, with the synergies listed horizontally (essentially like the prereqs at the top), which would look more in line with the rest of the design.
4.) Everything below the table I think looks very nice; I like how that turned out.
Yeah, I suppose; maybe we could just have the skill icon above the screenshot in the picture cell for actives, and then obviously just the icon for passives.
An animation is something I thought of too, my only concern with it is that it might be too obnoxious/distracting. Otherwise, I would totally be down for it. For some skills, like Inferno, I think it would be fine, but things like projectiles and other skills that produce a lot of movement in one way or another I think would be annoying.
Don't the equations in the files have expressions for synergy bonuses in them though? And if not, I'm sure we could do it manually. I mean it's not too difficult...if something has a 7% damage synergy bonus, for example, you just take the base damage and multiply it by 1.07. Cake.
I was hoping that could be found in the equations as well. <_<
I think it's a good idea (which is why I suggested it obviously :tongue:), but I'm a little concerned with it making the template cluttered. Do you think you'd be able to come up with something that'll look nice and not be too confusing to read for this?
Oh, also, the other thing I was thinking of was general information for each skill. Here's my take on what we have presently:
I think this info would look good in a cell that sits on top of the table and spans the entire length, or else outside the table entirely.
1.) I'm thinking it should be pretty easy to modify the monster design to accommodate the skills, though when I tried, it became clear that I'm not the man to do it. I'll start with the picture cell: I think we should keep that and add a screenshot of the skill in action (for active skills) and maybe just the skill icon for passive skills. For the rest, basically what I'm thinking is to have the top row of cells divided horizontally in two (sort of like the resistances area is now) with the top division being "Skill Level" and the bottom division subdivided (again, as with the different types of resistances) and numbered for each skill level. Then on the left side, to the right of the picture cell, we have the applicable stats (mana cost, damage, duration, life, what have you), each on their own row, with the stats obviously entered across under the skill level number. For prereqs and synergies, I'm thinking either their own cell on the bottom of the table or along the right side of it, or just completely outside of the table. Hope that wasn't too difficult to follow. :rolleyes:
2.) How are we planning to treat synergies? I'm assuming the files will treat the spells as though they have no points in any synergy, but I think that we should include the 1-point synergy bonus for all synergies that are also prereqs, since the spell will naturally have at least one point in its prereq(s) at all spell levels.
3.) This might start to get a little tricky, but I think for all spells that scale with difficulty (i.e. Golems, Bone Wall/Prison, etc.) we should have Normal/NM/Hell subdivisions for each skill level, so they will show accurate numbers for each difficulty level.
4.) If we decide to keep the skill tree image, I think a good idea for that would be to float:right it at the bottom of the page, underneath the skill tables, where the Description/Lore/References headers are. That way it won't interfere with the tables or force us to make the tables shorter, but will still be on the page.
Wonderful :thumbsup: I was going to say something else about "or if it's directly from the game files," but I forgot.
Anyway, I can't seem to find any skill.txt in my D2 folder, but if we're able to figure out what all those variables mean and get all the formulae out, I'd be happy to crunch some numbers. :wallbash:
I don't think that's a good idea. It's not user-friendly to make them draw the conclusion(s) themselves. If we know what the skill progression is, why wouldn't we just do the math for the user and then put the numbers in the table?
EDIT: Also, it's probably not wise to assume that any or all skills will follow a formula for their progression, diminishing returns or no. That could (and most likely would) lead to abundant misinformation. Unless it's an official "here's how it works" from a blue, speculation isn't a good idea.
Yeah, like I said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, I just think it could be done better. As it is, it's certainly eye-catching, but I just think it looks goofy and gaudy. Unfortunately, I haven't come up with much in the way of alternatives, except perhaps just dimming/dulling the rest of the tree and highlighting the skill in question, sort of like on the Skill calc. I also thing we could make the thing smaller regardless.
One thing that might be cool, though I don't know if it's possible, is to make the individual pictures in each tree link to that skill page, so the tree has a little more functionality and is a little bit less of just dead space (for the most part). I know that'll have to be a whole design thing and not just link to an image, but...
Yes, that's something I thought of, but I figured I'd leave that to the people who know more about it to solve.
It could also be pulled from the skill calc, assuming that 1.) It gets fixed someday and 2.)The information on it is correct (which I'm not sure it is 100%...I've pointed out to Superceb that Poison Nova's minimum damage exceeds its maximum damage beginning at Level 29, for instance).