Duels and hostility is not what this topic is about. I could care less if they were added or not.
Consentual hostility was specifically mentioned in the suggestion that you yourself stated was a middle ground. Please pay attention, I'm tired of repeating myself.
We have already discussed that negativity is an invalid argument because it's not the game that creates it or encourages it. It is the players that do. Furthermore negativity is subject to opinion which makes it even more invalid. The fact that it is to confusing is also an invalid argument.
It is a valid argument. Its just an argument that you don't agree with, and just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid.
You keep bringing up Diablo 2 when no one mentioned it. I never compared Diablo 3 PvP to Diablo 2 PvP because they are not the same exapecialy no without hostility. I would know I have played both of them.
I bring up Diablo 2 because the 'features' you guys keep asking for are essentially a return to Diablo 2's system. As I actually prefer the new system, I don't want to see a return to the old ungoverned one.
Diablo 3 is already set up to be a great eSports game all it need is rankings and custom areans and maybe a spectator mode. Which all of this can be done and more a lot easier than creating a new expansion (which they are going to do anyways).
No, Diablo 3 is not setup to be a great eSport. It doesn't even have PvP at all currently, how could you possibly think that? It doesn't have classes balanced for PvP, so any balance would be purely player~driven. Its developers declared openly that they have no intention of supporting eSports in any official manner...that itself says the game is not setup for eSports.
They have already stated that the game is finished, they finished weeks ago. All they are doing is server stress test which help the game as a whole. They have even stated that the only thing they are going to be working on in next few months is the PvP. We all know that they already gotten soo far since last Blizzcon. It is not like they are going to stop working on the PvP when it comes out either.
Yes, they are going to work on PvP. Have I said ANYTHING to the contrary? They have never stated they will be working on adding features to promote competitive PvP play via a player~driven PvP community? Nope, they haven't.
Sooner or later they will implement such features to make it an eSports anyway. They don't have to support it, the community will make it a great eSports without Blizzard.
Why would they? They specifically stated they have no desire to make the game into an eSport. There is no reason for them to. If you truly believe this though, why are you even complaining here? If they are going to add it...sit back and let it happen, no?
As a side note stop acting high and mighty by accusing everyone that disagrees with you as wrong or saying they avoided you question. The only fact there is, is that everything here is people's opinions and last time I checked opinion can't be right or wrong they can only agree or disagree.
Actually when people make comments like "Blizzard WILL do this.." when Blizzard specifically states they will not, they are wrong. If I'm accusing people they are wrong often, its probably because they are making comments that specifically go against Blizzard's statements. If you see this as acting high and mighty, I'm sorry?
As I said before, it can hardly be called a support. Few small, closed maps and tons of restriction for matchmaking (like gear score which will most likely not work anyway, inside the game). What I consider support is making what was available before without the known flaws, like forcing PvE players to participate in PvP.
Why are you so sure that they will not make thoes modes and your vision of PvP is the same as theirs? Could you provide me with official quote stating that it will never be implemented? All I know is that they do indeed consider custom games.
I don't believe I've stated that custom games will NEVER be implemented. They did however state that duels and hostility would not. Custom games they stated that the player~base itself is a good reason to NOT implement them. So it seems that Blizzard will be thinking long and hard about the benefits of adding them vs how it'll affect the community. Which, in my eyes, it'll affect the community negatively (and I believe Blizzard knows as such).
Now, as for support...how isn't it support? They are implementing official guidelines to playing PvP. Not giving support would be to not implement PvP at all. You need to clear your mind of Diablo 2 PvP and realize this IS A NEW GAME. You aren't entitled to Diablo 2 style PvP at all. This new style of PvP is one that the majority of players can jump right into and have fun. It doesn't need the features you proposed to be good because the whole point of it isn't being highly competitive. Its a new way to look at PvP that tries to just keep it fun and entertaining and that isn't a bad thing.
The problem is, so many old Diablo 2 players are fixated on the fact that they managed themselves in Diablo 2 (aka no support). Now that you're getting support (structure, matchmaking, etc), you feel like they are taking stuff away. However, that's not the case...they are actually giving you more SUPPORT for structured PvP. The side effect of giving more structured PvP is that now Blizzard manages PvP instead of the community. That is support, its just not support for a playstyle you might want.
They have no need to implement PvP at all, the game might be finished right now, yet it will be there. It's not a valid argument.
It's a perfectly valid argument. They had already put PvP to the side though, so your statement is wrong. PvP isn't the reason the game isn't out yet, so it wouldn't be 'finished' now if weren't doing PvP. The reality is, there is no need to implement the features you want in order for PvP to be good. The system they have proposed will be a fun system for the majority of players.
The only possible reason I could see a NEED to add such features is to allow 3rd~party competitive play (aka eSport). The only reason those people need these features is so that they can setup ranking systems to give them some method to compare themselves to others, essentially fluffing their ego. Why is that needed as part of Diablo 3 at all?
They stated they want to support PvP, so there is alot of expectations from that alone. Giving less possibilities than in previous games of the series hardly can be called a support. It's called a restriction. eSport is just a part of PvP and it involve solid balance, tournaments, maybe spectator mode on top of that, and definitely some people that would want to watch that. Everything else are tools for PvP that may or may not be used to create eSport environment. Everything that was mentioned before is not a design that would support eSport, but PvP as a whole.
They ARE supporting PvP, however, they aren't supporting PvP in the way you want them to. You see it as a restriction because the previous games didn't really have a system. They just ad a tacked~on hostile mode, that Blizzard themselves stated was a bad idea. Now we're getting an official system that is integrated, has matchmaking, etc. For a lot of us, the new system gives us an environment that is exactly what we want.
No, they don't need to make it to keep the longevity. I specificaly said they would add to longevity, which is quite important difference that make this part of your post invalid, also answers your question.
It doesn't quite answer the question. They have no NEED to actually implement these features. They have a PvP system in the works already to offer PvP~based longevity. With the PvM gameplay and future expansions, the game will last many years already. There isn't any need to add features that would create confusion and not represent Blizzard well.
For the same reason they added map making tools for their strategy games. It adds to longevity of the game, it creates great environment for player creativity. Hostility was quite similar in Diablo 2. PvP wasn't supported much, but it was very open for creativity of players. This is precisely the reason why they shouldn't and most likely will not restrict PvP in Diablo 3 to simple random matchmaking arena.
There is a bit of a difference here. Blizzard specifically had that as an intent with those games. It wasn't like they designed the game stating they weren't going to support custom maps, but did it anyways. Here they have actually stated that they were not going to support eSport play. Adding the features needed for it, but continuing to stay they aren't supporting it... is akin to my analogy.
You keep talking like they need to add these features to keep the longevity of the game. The reality is, Inferno may very well take the majority of the community MONTHS to finish. This is with one character alone. This also doesn't include the fun challenge achievements, testing various builds, playing other classes, etc. By the time the game gets stale for the majority of the community they will likely have released an expansion. That means more content to master, possibly another class, etc.
So what reason do they NEED to add these features?
Woah, just... wait, what? I don't even... I can't... What? How is that similar?!
I'll admit it is an extreme analogy. However, the point it makes is that you'd no~one would ever do something like that without actually having the intention. Why would Blizzard add features they knew would be used for eSports and then go and say they don't support eSports.
For the last time I know what Blizzard has said and where they stand. I am telling you and Blizzard it would not be confusing. They give us our features such as rankings and privite arenas and just say "we don't support eSports. The players will make it one on their own.
I'm just going to comment on this part. This sounds a lot like putting a loaded gun on the table of a kindergarten class, saying "Don't touch it", and walking out for a couple hours. It creates a very mixed view as to the actual intentions. If Blizzard wanted to support that style of gameplay, they would. They wouldn't just do it half~way. Instead, they've stated that they do NOT want to support that style of play. Seems like them doing as you ask would be going against their statements.
Shut up with the "its to confusing" already. The only one that is confused is you. Blizzard can easily implement such PvP features without supporting eSports end point.
Second nobody said anything about hostility you are just giving us garbage to distract us.
Blizzard doesn't need to run "two games" all the have to do is give us our PvP features and never touch the PvP again. We will handle EVERYTHING else.
You are just an angry person that doesn't want to share.
They are giving you PvP features. You just are unable to accept them. As for the confusion comment, it was Blizzard that stated that implementing more competitively focused features would lead to confusion as to what level of support they giving PvP.
As for hostility, you didn't actually read the suggestion you stated yourself was a middle~ground did you? Right in the suggestion it asks to add 'hostility by consent', which is dueling or willful hostility...both of which Blizzard has stated they will never implement.
Blizzard would end up having to run 'two games' as they give people the impression that they are supporting eSports. Adding a large amount of features primarily focused on competitive play will create such an impression. In addition to creating the confusion, it will make Blizzard look bad due to half~implementing a competitive system. If it was as simple of an issue as you make it seem, why wouldn't they just do it?
As far as me being angry goes...I'm not? I have little to be angry about as Blizzard has stated their plans and their plans are what I want. If anyone is angry it seems to be you.
1) Put basic tools in place for the community to use in any way they wish but not officially supporting the PvP side of the game
- This would include making x arena maps, y game modes ( CTF, FFA, TvT DM, LMS) giving a wide range of options, implementing a "hostile by concent" in regular games so people can atleast hit eachother ( if both concenting to it ) in regular games.
- This will lead to 3rd party communities making their own rules for the games, 3rd party ladders and 3rd party tournaments all wich are self policing and where "overpowered" abilities will be banned and managed in a way to make the experience as balanced as it can for the members within that community.
- Release mod tools for PvP arenas and let the community create their own pvp maps
I'm curious if either of you stating this is a middle ground ACTUALLY read it. This option creates the EXACT confusion I was stating would happen. It gives people the impression that Blizzard is supporting competitive play when they clearly stated they would not be. It would take a large amount of development time to achieve, taking development time from other areas. It suggests implementing hostility which the majority of people are COMPLETELY against (and Blizzard has stated would NEVER be implemented). This isn't a compromise at all, its giving the competitive PvP players what they want without actually considering the ramifications at all.
Blizzard has openly stated they have no interest in managing two games (separate PvP and PvM featuresets, balance, etc). This is why the Arena mode is being designed as a casual system where people can just duke it out. Stop trying to shove something into the game that even the developers don't want.
The ONLY thing I could possibly think would be a viable 'middle ground' would be private Arenas. Same Arena rules as public, no customization, no extras, just Arena that you can invite people to. However, even that idea has turned sour in my mind due to my experience with the competitive PvP crowd here.
Not every game needs a ton of competitive options. You wouldn't go on a Farmville forum and demand they add competitive PvP with ladders, customization, etc...would you? Why do that kind of stuff here when clearly the developer's intent is casual?
There is no confusion at all, it is actually quite simple and straight forward.
Blizzard can tinker and play around with an officially supported casual version of PvP but at the same time give the option of creating private pvp games together with options to tweak the experience as the creator of that perticular "game" see fit.
This private game will not show up as an official blizzard arena game and cannot be joined via match making system.
Everyone is happy.
What you want on the other hand is to pigeonhole people wich I think takes away from the game without really benefiting either side of this argument / camp.
These private games could be setup within the range of options that blizzard provides, wich should not be a very resource heavy thing to accomondate since they themselves ( blizzard ) must have some sort of interface in place to work with "official match making arenas" to begin with.
Options such as:
Nummber of players
Duration of match
Map
Game mode: CTF, LMS, TvT, 1vsX, 1v1, 2v2 etc
switch teams randomly after x fights
'use map setting' like tools could be implemented aswell to further enhance and indirectly support the pvp side of the game without investing any time in it, let the communities develop for themselves. Remember Big game hunter ( BGH), one of the most played starcraft maps ever and also happend to be community created.
Think big using little manpower and resources. No confusion, no forced pvp elitism and no whine about pvp imbalance due to items, skills or other things relating to character balance wich also affect PvM balance.
I think the problem you have with this might be something your not conveying.
Do you even realize how long the options you just stated would actually take a large development company like Blizzard to actually do? Interface design alone could take a month or two through quality control. Its not some trivial task as you seem to think. It takes sizable effort.
In addition, you've failed to give a reason why these features would actually be worth the time investment as well. They go against the design that Blizzard has set forth, they would split the community between public and private PvP, etc. I've given reasons they shouldn't add it. It really is like going to a Pokemon forum and complaining that their next game isn't an FPS, because you want it to be. Diablo 3 isn't a competitive PvP game. Why is that so hard to grasp?
"So for me, if a community builds around it similar to the community that built around Diablo II, then I will feel like it’s a success. If that community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better, then to me that's worth continuing to work on the game. That’s success." - Jay Wilson, Director of Diablo 3
Ecut sits there and criticizes the Diablo 2 community and how bad they were and how they arn't welcomed in D3. Yet Jay Wilson, his idol is basing the games success on if Diablo 3's community can match up to Diablo 2's. Even uses such words as "community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better". You don't get that kind of a community if Blizzard holds everyones hands and doesn't give us the ability to craft it ourselves. You don't get that in "casual" arena where losses and wins apparently mean nothing to the mass majority. You don't get that in a predominantly PvM game.
I don't believe I've stated that the Diablo 2 community is bad, or how they aren't welcome. Specifically I stated that those (like yourself) that cannot come to terms with the fact that Diablo 3 is a new game, with a new design, and gameplay...maybe shouldn't buy it. If you're so fixated on the fact that Diablo 3 doesn't have what you loved about Diablo 2... then perhaps you should keep playing Diablo 2.
Many people actually like the new direction Blizzard has taken with Diablo 3 and don't want them to change gears and focus more on even further PvP additions. Blizzard isn't 'holding your hand', they are making a game that has more structured rules. You don't like that, and you lash out. Just because Blizzard didn't design the game FOR YOU doesn't make it a bad game design, or anything of the sort. It just means its a new game that you might not enjoy playing. Which means you stick with a game you do like instead... how is that a bad thing?
I did read your other quotes, but I won't reply to them since it will go nowhere as we see things diffrently.
On this note I can say that there is room for both worlds. You can have casual, ungoverned "meat grinder" kind of PvP in arenas via a matchmaking system for the people who like that. You can also have a more organized and rule/setting governed type of PvP that is supported and self policed by individual communities within the game itself.
What you are proposing is casualisation, wich initself is not a bad thing aslong as you leave options ( if cost and resource effective ) for those who wanna take things further, albeit on their own peril and governed/ran by themselves via 3rd party communities.
I can most definitely promise you that in a not very long time the people who did start pvping in a very casual way/manner ( and liked it, not all are going to ) will want to progress in some form, after they have gone through the more "blizz governed" casual pvp mini-game they might seek out further challenge, thats where 3rd party communities might come into play for them aswell.
As you say it will not be the first thing someone completly new to Diablo will seek out but it is a good way to add longevity to the game and will not cost blizzard any money, as long as the "tools" are provided for the community to develop for themselves. Think use-map settings in Starcraft, how many hours of insane fun have that iniative not brought the original SC community?
Also the whole idea behind letting the community run the pvp side of things ( could very well be alongside a more casualised blizzard sanctioned pvp ) is to avoid the stat padding of official ladders, rankings and all that sort that comes in "official this or that's" wake.
Another, almost even more important aspect is ofcourse the balance issues that probably will arise, certain item combinations together with certain skills and runes will be hard to balance, therefore a single community can agree upon not using x y z skills, items and so forth for the benefit of everyone INSIDE that perticular community without affecting the "more casual blizzard arena" or the PvM side of the game, aswell as beeing resource light on blizzard to further develop the PvM and casual arena side of the game.
It is a win win situation, and one that lets people participate to whatever degree they want.
What you're asking for is Blizzard throwing a lot of development effort into custom Arena games, when their overall goal is specifically to not focus development on competitive features. I think this is something that people forget to realize when saying "Blizzard SHOULD this.." is that it actually ISN'T in Blizzard's best interest to do as you suggest.
Their design for PvP is focused towards casual PvP. They've stated this multiple times. If they implement a feature~set that is focused towards competitive play, it muddles the focus of their design. It creates confusion as to how much support is supposed to be offered, etc.
I'm a bit curious... why is there such a NEED to add competitive PvP into a game that it's developers have already said wasn't their goal? Why do those that are more competitive seem to be entitled to having it in a new game? I know that people liked it in Diablo 2. However, that isn't a goal with Diablo 3 and why should it be? It isn't like Diablo 2 is going away...
Or, they could just do as they are doing... and offer support for PvP in a structured fashion that keeps the PvP side of the game casual. Considering that Blizzard has stated themselves that the primary focus of the game is PvM, it seems that sticking with a more casual approach to PvP would be a good route to go.
In addition, by going this route they encourage those that wouldn't participate at all in PvP to actually play it. Those same people wouldn't likely participate in community~balanced PvP. Structured, but casual PvP seems to be the option that will make the MOST people happy in the long run and is probably the reason Blizzard has chosen that route.
ecutruin: So you came here trolling to disorganize the discussion, because you didn't like what it might bring? Now that's nice of you.
So, having an opinion that is counter to your opinion and stating it means I'm trolling? You want a competitive environment, I don't. I've explained why I don't. That somehow makes me a troll? Seems more like trolling when people continually make threads stating Blizzard should make the game competitive when Blizzard themselves said they have NO intention of doing so. They even made a comment to state that the way a competitive environment would affect the players is enough of a reason NOT to add private Arenas.
I would say to anyone who claims Diablo as a franchise is a PvE game they need to go back to WoW. For those who think it is only a PvP game they need to go back to LoL or wait for GW2. Diablo has both pvp and pve/pvm and thats what makes it great.
It's not that Diablo is a PvM only game, it's that the design of the game has always been focused around PvM. This is something Blizzard themselves has stated and has been a driving focus behind Diablo 3. So yes, PvM matters more when it comes to the development of Diablo 3 then PvP does. That's a fact.
The question is how far Blizzard should go when supporting the PvP side of Diablo 3. In my opinion they can do 3 things:
~snip~
I read your three options, but you're missing an option that Blizzard themselves has stated they can do. They can make a casual Arena system that focuses away from highly competitive play. This allows them to ignore heavy balancing changes specifically for PvP as its not aimed at tournament play. A simple matchmaking system that matches people based on wins, gear, levels, etc allows for a better experience for all involved. All of the options you offered assume that Blizzard HAS to go competitive or not at all. When Blizzard themselves already gave their plan.
At the end of the day, if you play Diablo for the PvE only then this game is not for you. If you play Diablo only for the sake of PvP then this game is not for you. ( Beauty is though, that with a cleverly and seperated pvm and pvp both camps can be happy )
This statement is kinda false. Considering that the primary development goal of the game is PvM. This game is most definitely for people that want to just play PvM. However, the second part is true. It is a PvM focused game, and as such you are unable to really effectively 'just PvP'.
Wait.. what? How thoes quotes are complaints? The first one is a valid question that is not insulting anyone and the other might be a misunderstanding of what Blizzard said. Why are you complaining about people asking questions and talking about eSport in a thread that was made for that purpose.
No, the first quote was the original poster attempting to get people on his side, and the second quote was telling those same people to complain as well because Blizzard will change their mind if more complain. That is how most of the PvP threads here go. Notice, I don't tend to post in threads that are theory~crafting class builds and such..
The reality is Blizzard took a heavy handed approach to PvP that angered those that were addicted to Diablo 2 PvP. Those people are coming here and trying to incite more people to get angry in the hope that Blizzard will listen to their complaints and alter their plans. Some of us DO NOT WANT THAT.
I want what Blizzard has promised and announced. I want a casual and fun Arena system that keeps the focus away from highly competitive play. So when people post threads like this one attempting to incite Blizzard to change it...I am against that and will post my opinion and thoughts on the issue as well.
The funny thing is.. I'll post a reply citing Blizzard statements, personal experiences, other posts, etc.. and just try explain WHY I feel things should stay (or try explain WHY Blizzard might have made some of their decisions)...and I get replies that attack me, call me a PvM fanboy, a carebear, a noob, etc.
All because I have a different opinion? Yet.. I'm suppose to just accept that these same people should have a game mode just for them? A place where they teach others to act just like they do and feel justified in doing so because 'they're pro and I'm a noob". No thanks. I'd rather encourage co~op and casual play and give less reasons for people to act like that. Sure, some still will.. but if it has no place to flourish, it won't be encouraged.
So you're saying that we are not allowed to theorize about how this game would play out as an e-sport just because currently it's highly unlikely that it's gonna happen? Why hasn't this topic been closed so far than?
Except that isn't what is happening. What is happening generally (and why I end up posting to many of the threads) is what people are complaining that Blizzard isn't supporting their way of playing. They in~turn bash Blizzard, and various aspects of the community because they are not getting their way. When someone comes in and says something counter to their viewpoint, we get badgered, insulted, etc.. just for actually liking the direction that Blizzard has gone.
Sure, theory~craft away...but don't start your thread with "How many people want Diablo to be an eSport?" and make claims like "I know the said they wouldn't do it but they also said that if there was enough of us who wants Diablo 3 to be an eSport they would do it". That isn't theory~crafting. It's complaining that Diablo 3 isn't focusing on eSport features and encouraging others to complain more as well.
Exactly my point. I have no problem with your opinion, unless you try to make it a fact (that competitive community is negative) because it's based on your experiences.
I would very much like to see a competitive community in Diablo 3. Is that an answer you were looking for?
That isn't an answer to "Do you want all the negativity (created by the clash between casual and competitive) as part of the Diablo 3 community?". The question I asked was a yes or no question and answering it with something other then that isn't actually answering the question....It's just making a side comment.
Well, when I first posted in this forum my opinion on PvP you answered to me that I shouldn't play the game because it's not for me, even though I haven't stated that the game would be bad without competitive aspects. Here you go, one example of negativity to a new user.
You clearly do not look for agreement when you are publicly stating that the people you are talking to are bringing negativity to the community. You are insulting a lot of people.
This is also precisely what I see in ecutruin posts. I would like to see reason and logic other than "I don't accept thoes answers because they are not the answers I want".
Hrm...If you cannot enjoy the game without a strong competitive environment, then maybe the game isn't for you...that's not an attack, that's just explaining that Diablo 3 isn't catered towards a highly competitive environment. It's not meant to either, kind of end of story.
I do want to find a middle ground. If I didn't, I wouldn't be attempting to discuss the issues. I am looking forward to Arena and what it'll offer for the community. From playing the Beta, the game will be awesome.
I've given reason and logic. You avoided my question and instead of answering it, you tried to say the negative environment doesn't exist. Where~as my question was posed with reference to it existing. I've also explained where I've gotten my opinions from, and such opinions are based on my experience here on the forums, in other games, from other posters, etc. It is not a baseless opinion and either you have not experienced the same situations, or choose to ignore it.
Consentual hostility was specifically mentioned in the suggestion that you yourself stated was a middle ground. Please pay attention, I'm tired of repeating myself.
It is a valid argument. Its just an argument that you don't agree with, and just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid.
I bring up Diablo 2 because the 'features' you guys keep asking for are essentially a return to Diablo 2's system. As I actually prefer the new system, I don't want to see a return to the old ungoverned one.
No, Diablo 3 is not setup to be a great eSport. It doesn't even have PvP at all currently, how could you possibly think that? It doesn't have classes balanced for PvP, so any balance would be purely player~driven. Its developers declared openly that they have no intention of supporting eSports in any official manner...that itself says the game is not setup for eSports.
It is support when they implement PvP in an official manner. They are not supporting the type of PvP you want, quite a different thing.
Yes, they are going to work on PvP. Have I said ANYTHING to the contrary? They have never stated they will be working on adding features to promote competitive PvP play via a player~driven PvP community? Nope, they haven't.
Why would they? They specifically stated they have no desire to make the game into an eSport. There is no reason for them to. If you truly believe this though, why are you even complaining here? If they are going to add it...sit back and let it happen, no?
Actually when people make comments like "Blizzard WILL do this.." when Blizzard specifically states they will not, they are wrong. If I'm accusing people they are wrong often, its probably because they are making comments that specifically go against Blizzard's statements. If you see this as acting high and mighty, I'm sorry?
I don't believe I've stated that custom games will NEVER be implemented. They did however state that duels and hostility would not. Custom games they stated that the player~base itself is a good reason to NOT implement them. So it seems that Blizzard will be thinking long and hard about the benefits of adding them vs how it'll affect the community. Which, in my eyes, it'll affect the community negatively (and I believe Blizzard knows as such).
Now, as for support...how isn't it support? They are implementing official guidelines to playing PvP. Not giving support would be to not implement PvP at all. You need to clear your mind of Diablo 2 PvP and realize this IS A NEW GAME. You aren't entitled to Diablo 2 style PvP at all. This new style of PvP is one that the majority of players can jump right into and have fun. It doesn't need the features you proposed to be good because the whole point of it isn't being highly competitive. Its a new way to look at PvP that tries to just keep it fun and entertaining and that isn't a bad thing.
The problem is, so many old Diablo 2 players are fixated on the fact that they managed themselves in Diablo 2 (aka no support). Now that you're getting support (structure, matchmaking, etc), you feel like they are taking stuff away. However, that's not the case...they are actually giving you more SUPPORT for structured PvP. The side effect of giving more structured PvP is that now Blizzard manages PvP instead of the community. That is support, its just not support for a playstyle you might want.
It's a perfectly valid argument. They had already put PvP to the side though, so your statement is wrong. PvP isn't the reason the game isn't out yet, so it wouldn't be 'finished' now if weren't doing PvP. The reality is, there is no need to implement the features you want in order for PvP to be good. The system they have proposed will be a fun system for the majority of players.
The only possible reason I could see a NEED to add such features is to allow 3rd~party competitive play (aka eSport). The only reason those people need these features is so that they can setup ranking systems to give them some method to compare themselves to others, essentially fluffing their ego. Why is that needed as part of Diablo 3 at all?
They ARE supporting PvP, however, they aren't supporting PvP in the way you want them to. You see it as a restriction because the previous games didn't really have a system. They just ad a tacked~on hostile mode, that Blizzard themselves stated was a bad idea. Now we're getting an official system that is integrated, has matchmaking, etc. For a lot of us, the new system gives us an environment that is exactly what we want.
It doesn't quite answer the question. They have no NEED to actually implement these features. They have a PvP system in the works already to offer PvP~based longevity. With the PvM gameplay and future expansions, the game will last many years already. There isn't any need to add features that would create confusion and not represent Blizzard well.
There is a bit of a difference here. Blizzard specifically had that as an intent with those games. It wasn't like they designed the game stating they weren't going to support custom maps, but did it anyways. Here they have actually stated that they were not going to support eSport play. Adding the features needed for it, but continuing to stay they aren't supporting it... is akin to my analogy.
You keep talking like they need to add these features to keep the longevity of the game. The reality is, Inferno may very well take the majority of the community MONTHS to finish. This is with one character alone. This also doesn't include the fun challenge achievements, testing various builds, playing other classes, etc. By the time the game gets stale for the majority of the community they will likely have released an expansion. That means more content to master, possibly another class, etc.
So what reason do they NEED to add these features?
I'll admit it is an extreme analogy. However, the point it makes is that you'd no~one would ever do something like that without actually having the intention. Why would Blizzard add features they knew would be used for eSports and then go and say they don't support eSports.
I'm just going to comment on this part. This sounds a lot like putting a loaded gun on the table of a kindergarten class, saying "Don't touch it", and walking out for a couple hours. It creates a very mixed view as to the actual intentions. If Blizzard wanted to support that style of gameplay, they would. They wouldn't just do it half~way. Instead, they've stated that they do NOT want to support that style of play. Seems like them doing as you ask would be going against their statements.
They are giving you PvP features. You just are unable to accept them. As for the confusion comment, it was Blizzard that stated that implementing more competitively focused features would lead to confusion as to what level of support they giving PvP.
As for hostility, you didn't actually read the suggestion you stated yourself was a middle~ground did you? Right in the suggestion it asks to add 'hostility by consent', which is dueling or willful hostility...both of which Blizzard has stated they will never implement.
Blizzard would end up having to run 'two games' as they give people the impression that they are supporting eSports. Adding a large amount of features primarily focused on competitive play will create such an impression. In addition to creating the confusion, it will make Blizzard look bad due to half~implementing a competitive system. If it was as simple of an issue as you make it seem, why wouldn't they just do it?
As far as me being angry goes...I'm not? I have little to be angry about as Blizzard has stated their plans and their plans are what I want. If anyone is angry it seems to be you.
I'm curious if either of you stating this is a middle ground ACTUALLY read it. This option creates the EXACT confusion I was stating would happen. It gives people the impression that Blizzard is supporting competitive play when they clearly stated they would not be. It would take a large amount of development time to achieve, taking development time from other areas. It suggests implementing hostility which the majority of people are COMPLETELY against (and Blizzard has stated would NEVER be implemented). This isn't a compromise at all, its giving the competitive PvP players what they want without actually considering the ramifications at all.
Blizzard has openly stated they have no interest in managing two games (separate PvP and PvM featuresets, balance, etc). This is why the Arena mode is being designed as a casual system where people can just duke it out. Stop trying to shove something into the game that even the developers don't want.
The ONLY thing I could possibly think would be a viable 'middle ground' would be private Arenas. Same Arena rules as public, no customization, no extras, just Arena that you can invite people to. However, even that idea has turned sour in my mind due to my experience with the competitive PvP crowd here.
Not every game needs a ton of competitive options. You wouldn't go on a Farmville forum and demand they add competitive PvP with ladders, customization, etc...would you? Why do that kind of stuff here when clearly the developer's intent is casual?
Do you even realize how long the options you just stated would actually take a large development company like Blizzard to actually do? Interface design alone could take a month or two through quality control. Its not some trivial task as you seem to think. It takes sizable effort.
In addition, you've failed to give a reason why these features would actually be worth the time investment as well. They go against the design that Blizzard has set forth, they would split the community between public and private PvP, etc. I've given reasons they shouldn't add it. It really is like going to a Pokemon forum and complaining that their next game isn't an FPS, because you want it to be. Diablo 3 isn't a competitive PvP game. Why is that so hard to grasp?
I don't believe I've stated that the Diablo 2 community is bad, or how they aren't welcome. Specifically I stated that those (like yourself) that cannot come to terms with the fact that Diablo 3 is a new game, with a new design, and gameplay...maybe shouldn't buy it. If you're so fixated on the fact that Diablo 3 doesn't have what you loved about Diablo 2... then perhaps you should keep playing Diablo 2.
Many people actually like the new direction Blizzard has taken with Diablo 3 and don't want them to change gears and focus more on even further PvP additions. Blizzard isn't 'holding your hand', they are making a game that has more structured rules. You don't like that, and you lash out. Just because Blizzard didn't design the game FOR YOU doesn't make it a bad game design, or anything of the sort. It just means its a new game that you might not enjoy playing. Which means you stick with a game you do like instead... how is that a bad thing?
What you're asking for is Blizzard throwing a lot of development effort into custom Arena games, when their overall goal is specifically to not focus development on competitive features. I think this is something that people forget to realize when saying "Blizzard SHOULD this.." is that it actually ISN'T in Blizzard's best interest to do as you suggest.
Their design for PvP is focused towards casual PvP. They've stated this multiple times. If they implement a feature~set that is focused towards competitive play, it muddles the focus of their design. It creates confusion as to how much support is supposed to be offered, etc.
I'm a bit curious... why is there such a NEED to add competitive PvP into a game that it's developers have already said wasn't their goal? Why do those that are more competitive seem to be entitled to having it in a new game? I know that people liked it in Diablo 2. However, that isn't a goal with Diablo 3 and why should it be? It isn't like Diablo 2 is going away...
In addition, by going this route they encourage those that wouldn't participate at all in PvP to actually play it. Those same people wouldn't likely participate in community~balanced PvP. Structured, but casual PvP seems to be the option that will make the MOST people happy in the long run and is probably the reason Blizzard has chosen that route.
So, having an opinion that is counter to your opinion and stating it means I'm trolling? You want a competitive environment, I don't. I've explained why I don't. That somehow makes me a troll? Seems more like trolling when people continually make threads stating Blizzard should make the game competitive when Blizzard themselves said they have NO intention of doing so. They even made a comment to state that the way a competitive environment would affect the players is enough of a reason NOT to add private Arenas.
It's not that Diablo is a PvM only game, it's that the design of the game has always been focused around PvM. This is something Blizzard themselves has stated and has been a driving focus behind Diablo 3. So yes, PvM matters more when it comes to the development of Diablo 3 then PvP does. That's a fact.
I read your three options, but you're missing an option that Blizzard themselves has stated they can do. They can make a casual Arena system that focuses away from highly competitive play. This allows them to ignore heavy balancing changes specifically for PvP as its not aimed at tournament play. A simple matchmaking system that matches people based on wins, gear, levels, etc allows for a better experience for all involved. All of the options you offered assume that Blizzard HAS to go competitive or not at all. When Blizzard themselves already gave their plan.
This statement is kinda false. Considering that the primary development goal of the game is PvM. This game is most definitely for people that want to just play PvM. However, the second part is true. It is a PvM focused game, and as such you are unable to really effectively 'just PvP'.
No, the first quote was the original poster attempting to get people on his side, and the second quote was telling those same people to complain as well because Blizzard will change their mind if more complain. That is how most of the PvP threads here go. Notice, I don't tend to post in threads that are theory~crafting class builds and such..
The reality is Blizzard took a heavy handed approach to PvP that angered those that were addicted to Diablo 2 PvP. Those people are coming here and trying to incite more people to get angry in the hope that Blizzard will listen to their complaints and alter their plans. Some of us DO NOT WANT THAT.
I want what Blizzard has promised and announced. I want a casual and fun Arena system that keeps the focus away from highly competitive play. So when people post threads like this one attempting to incite Blizzard to change it...I am against that and will post my opinion and thoughts on the issue as well.
The funny thing is.. I'll post a reply citing Blizzard statements, personal experiences, other posts, etc.. and just try explain WHY I feel things should stay (or try explain WHY Blizzard might have made some of their decisions)...and I get replies that attack me, call me a PvM fanboy, a carebear, a noob, etc.
All because I have a different opinion? Yet.. I'm suppose to just accept that these same people should have a game mode just for them? A place where they teach others to act just like they do and feel justified in doing so because 'they're pro and I'm a noob". No thanks. I'd rather encourage co~op and casual play and give less reasons for people to act like that. Sure, some still will.. but if it has no place to flourish, it won't be encouraged.
Except that isn't what is happening. What is happening generally (and why I end up posting to many of the threads) is what people are complaining that Blizzard isn't supporting their way of playing. They in~turn bash Blizzard, and various aspects of the community because they are not getting their way. When someone comes in and says something counter to their viewpoint, we get badgered, insulted, etc.. just for actually liking the direction that Blizzard has gone.
Sure, theory~craft away...but don't start your thread with "How many people want Diablo to be an eSport?" and make claims like "I know the said they wouldn't do it but they also said that if there was enough of us who wants Diablo 3 to be an eSport they would do it". That isn't theory~crafting. It's complaining that Diablo 3 isn't focusing on eSport features and encouraging others to complain more as well.
That isn't an answer to "Do you want all the negativity (created by the clash between casual and competitive) as part of the Diablo 3 community?". The question I asked was a yes or no question and answering it with something other then that isn't actually answering the question....It's just making a side comment.
Hrm...If you cannot enjoy the game without a strong competitive environment, then maybe the game isn't for you...that's not an attack, that's just explaining that Diablo 3 isn't catered towards a highly competitive environment. It's not meant to either, kind of end of story.
I do want to find a middle ground. If I didn't, I wouldn't be attempting to discuss the issues. I am looking forward to Arena and what it'll offer for the community. From playing the Beta, the game will be awesome.
I've given reason and logic. You avoided my question and instead of answering it, you tried to say the negative environment doesn't exist. Where~as my question was posed with reference to it existing. I've also explained where I've gotten my opinions from, and such opinions are based on my experience here on the forums, in other games, from other posters, etc. It is not a baseless opinion and either you have not experienced the same situations, or choose to ignore it.