I would really like to see consensual world PvP; it could be implemented as duels or some mutual toggle. I haven't seen any reasonable arguments against this feature.
Sorry, but it won't be happening. Blizzard outright stated that they will not be adding world PvP, neither as hostility or dueling.
That is a fail as well, no game lists. Hell even SC2 has game lists for non ranked games ha. A private arena where you could alter the rules on the fly would be the ideal thing however, if a game list is out of the question.
It's not 'fail', its different. In practice, not having game lists works very well. You can make a private game and invite friends, or you can join public games and be matched with other players around your level. It honestly plays out very well in practice.
A private Arena with an FFA option is the best option I can see for fully customized PvP matches. It'd be the exact same system as public Arena matches, but just let the creator invite...simple and effective. Since they could add a spectator system for private matches, it could actually allow for streaming/commentating on matches. All without really affecting PvM that much, seems like a win-win.
Pretty simple to code in an option to flag your game for PvP or not when creating a game. Allows all parties to have what they want and it doesn't take a ton of resources to code.
As far as ranking, it isn't needed or even wanted from the PvP community. They will make their own ranks regardless so anything on Bnet will be false and can be cheated anyway.
There are no game lists, so adding a PvP flag would also require adding a whole new game type, queue system, etc. Since Arena is the goal for PvP, it makes more sense for them to invest the time into Arena instead. Public / private PvP games would be the way to go. Private would let you invite the players before entering the chosen Arena. With a FFA Arena and private PvP games, players could duel and/or create their own rules for an Arena match.
Yeah that's good and all, although your point about not being able to kick people (at launch) doesn't hold much weight considering /duels would, if they were to be added, be patched in post-launch as well, probably hand in hand with kick options. And yeah if two friends joined your game and decided to dick around that could potentially make your life harder and maybe even prompt you to join a new game, so I guess so, but it seems like a bit of a hard hit to not allow town or world dueling for those who would like to duel without having to make a specific arena game.
I don't understand how dueling would be added to arena though. They'd have to add more side options other than just waiting in a queue like in wow arena, and build it more like starcraft in that you can create an arena game/map and allow people to join, with limiters and rules you set as to who can see the game/join such as friends or public or invite only, as well as respawn or what have you.
It'd be pretty easy to just have a private / public Arena system. Make a private game, you have to invite everyone. Make a public game and your team queues vs others. The wouldn't need a ton of options for Arena games either. Remember, Diablo 3 isn't about heavily competitive PvP. The PvP will (and in my opinion, should be) more casual. A simple method of public/private arena games minic the public/private PvM games nicely, while letting people duel or team vs team. Heck, you could even add spectator slots in private games to let people do commentating and streaming.
Sure, I don't personally want to see them devote a ton of resources towards competitive PvP...as it WILL hurt the development of PvM (WoW is a good example, or SC2 where the campaign suffered). That doesn't mean I'm against PvP completely. I'd love to have the ability to duel friends, other teams, etc. I just don't want to see an expectation of competitive balance, tons of options, etc for PvP. Blizzard has stated that their focus was PvM and its what a majority of us want to see more of.
I'd rather get a new event a month, then more PvP balance. Especially in a game where the goal is killing monsters and going through the story a million times. That really is the goal of Diablo 3. It may sound silly to enjoy running the content over and over like that...but it is what MANY of us want out of the game...and Blizzard listened.
It will be beneficial in that it will give people something else to do once the only alternative is to farm for more items. More forms of pvp mean more reasons to continue playing the game and gearing up for more people which means more money going to blizzard through expansion purchases and RMAH use.
Not everyone thinks the same way. Diablo 3 is a pvm game, but trust me when I say a year into retail *many* people will get bored of aimlessly farming items without a "reason" so to speak. There should probably be an incentive to keep these people around and fueling the game. People who like pvp aren't poison, they're good for the community too, they just prefer a different cup of tea than those like yourself. We're not talking about some 1-5% of players, there is a large, albeit the smaller of the two, fraction of players who like pvp and would appreciate more options.
I've already told you why /duel shouldn't disrupt people's monster slaying(as unlikely as that already was), because ultimately we will have the ability to control who joins our game. If some guy is increasing your difficulty without performing, simply get rid of them. If you're in a game with 3 friends who want to be douchebags, well, they're probably going to be douchebags with or without a way to duel spam and so you leave the game regardless.
Personally I will rarely ever use the public quest features. I've not liked public PvM ever since my prior experiences when I learned people play at different paces, and they get different things out of the game. Take serious sam SE for instance. I'm fascinated with ancient egypt etc and so I like to take my time and find all the secrets and kill every last monster, but there were often other players who would rocket jump over walls and rush to the final boss as quickly as possible. I will be, for the most part, playing by myself, with friends, and family- and rarely ever allow people to fill in the gaps even when they are there.
I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but I asked if anyone could point out where blizzard suggested we will be able to duel specific people (ie friends) in arena, seeing as how multiple people have stated it as a fact that we will be able to... though I myself have not seen such a statement.
On /duel. Blizzard said they have a method to kick players, but won't be rolling it into launch. This means we WON'T have a means to kick people from public games at launch. In addition, if you and your friend duel in a public game me and another are in, how do we kick you? Vote kick wouldn't work. There are no 'named' games...so we cannot make game specifically for dueling, except for private games (negating the point of dueling in world vs dueling in arena). So, how will /duel benefit the game?
As for the issue of extending the life of the game...you know what would extend the life of the game as well? More PvM content. They could easily add additional random events, quests, etc on a monthly or bi-monthly bases to add more replay to the game. In fact, as the majority of players prefer PvM (as you say yourself), this direction would appeal to more of the community as well. Now, that doesn't mean I don't think PvP should get some love...but I don't see a need for all these competitive features such as public stats, ladders, etc.
P.S. - Blizzard hasn't specifically stated we WILL be able to duel. Jay did say he wanted to have a duel feature, however. Since Arena is their focus for PvP, it only makes sense for said duel capability to be implemented via the Arena system.
Seriously guys, who is afraid of /duel. That's beyond sad, I'm sorry.
Please explain how it'd be a positive feature for the game and community, instead of insulting other posters. We've explained WHY its not beneficial to the community. You've not actually given good reasons it could be good for the community. It's not about being 'afraid' at all. It's about not wanting to be pestered for duels in the middle of a PvM run. Also, due to the way that Diablo 3 is balanced, having two players stop to duel basically puts advancement to a halt...likely causing those two extra players to leave and make a new game. This will create a void between those that like PvP and those that like PvM... the same way that it happened in Diablo 2. Am I missing something?...do you have a reason that'll actually be a positive?...I'd love to hear it!
Blizzard has already stated a desire to implement duels as part of PvP. This will likely be in the form of queuing vs your friend the same way you queue vs Arena. Granted, they haven't made any official announcements as to how the new PvP system will work completely...but they do know that people want duels and have said they want to offer a way to do so.
Except at this point I really couldn't care about pvp in diablo 3. I have other games that make more sense to play for those times I would like to go all out. You can't be serious when you talk about dueling distracting from monster slaying in public games. First off it takes two, second if you're going to bother joining a quest/public game you probably won't stand around town spamming duels, and even if you do feel like a douche and want to waste a spot in other peoples game, they should (eventually) add a way to kick useless players by vote from games. I thought I read somewhere that kicking players is in the works. So assuming the "community" has power what kind of person they do or do not play with, I really don't understand how it could possibly be an issue.
The only thing I really want in the game that we aren't being given now, in terms of pvp, is consensual /duel so that I have a way to dick around with my friends/family when we are bored.
And please don't take my calling out a generous fraction of wow players crybabies as a personal attack against anyone in this thread lol. Common now >:]
If you're not going to join public games to duel. Then why do you need in-world duels at all? Its very likely that Arena will have team vs team and duels. This means you could very easily duel your friends. Why do you need it in-world? What benefit does it offer overall? I'm curious as many people have said to bring hostility back, in various ways....or complained that without hostility PvP would suck...but none of them have really explained WHY. They also haven't explained WHY it'd benefit the community as a whole, making it a good idea for Blizzard to actually do.
It's not like it'd take that many resources to add a "duel" or "spar" feature, where there is a mutual agreement between players and a countdown. I've already accepted that diablo 3 isn't a pvp focused game. I've already experienced what *most* people can, and can not tolerate in terms of pvp in an RPG and it's quite sad, so I've given up on it despite my heart of hearts wishing we still could *organize* group pvp vs specific teams/players. I doubt you'll be able to 1v1 in an arena, for instance. I wonder if there will even be a 2v2.
I mean people couldn't even hack having their win/lose rate shown in sc2. Only a few % of all players get to see it in masters and in GM, because it scares them too much to have a precise record. Personally I would have preferred individual match records vs each race and league etc.
Then there's the fact that itemized pvp, especially with each new skill/level cap/item will chance the balance, even if they were to manage balancing it after launch, with future patches it'd change each time just like it has in wow, and people would roll the Flavor of the Month class/team comps with the cookie cutter items and lololol to victory.
I really have given up on the idea of competitive or even grief-like pvp in d3, because of my experience in wow, despite having trod all over gladiator and duelist every season I cared to try, despite the 2-3 years of world pvp and early on battlegrounds I wreaked havoc in, because I've seen what it turns into when you throw 5 million crybabies and the above points into the mix.
A mid-game duel option would be ruining the fun of the other two people in the game while they wait for the duel to finish. Not a wise option to be honest. The game is designed in such a way that you need 3-4 players to beat some of the monster pulls if you have 4 people in the game. This means that if you want to duel me in a public game, we hold up everyone else in order to kill each other.
No, Arena is the best place for PvP in Diablo 3. The game was tuned around PvM and the only place for PvP to fit in at this point is a separate Arena. I don't really see how you could possibly think otherwise, either.
I love how you insult those that don't want gief-PvP by calling them crybabies. Yet, it seems like the PvP crowd are the ones complaining. The PvM crowd here seems to only attempt to explain WHY your desires for PvP would be BAD for the game. This isn't a game that is designed around PvP. Its not supposed to have competitively balanced PvP with a ton of statistics and PvP features. This is a single player online game that gives you the option to play through or trade with other players. As an added BONUS they are adding a integrated Arena system that will offer matchmaking and tweaks to balance some abilities towards PvP. Despite getting a full PvP system in a PvM focused game, we still see a ton of complaints from PvP people...but us PvM players are the crybabies?
I haven't posted insults, used derogatory terms, etc...why must the other side use them? Could you perhaps try to give a good reason why your desired PvP features would be good for a PvM focused game and it's community?
So, I've still not seen ANYONE post a reason why statistics need to be public. Those that want statistics keep saying they want them to track their own progress. Personal stats are something that I and others like me are perfectly fine with. If any of you PvP focused players (note, I'm not using insults) can explain WHY public stats are needed for you to enjoy the game, I'd love to hear it.
Just because the game has more of a focus to casual gaming does not mean you cannot compete. You'll race friends and strangers to get to lvl 60 first, have more PvP wins, get better gear, do MF runs faster, etc. There will be competition, to say otherwise is just silly.
However, Blizzard has stated quite specifically that they are not looking at a highly competitive environment for PvP. This has been stated and the topic beaten to death. World PvP doesn't foster anything beneficial over arena really (other then benefiting griefers). I could see them adding an in-world arena where players could go and be flagged for PvP. This would allow them to duel with their own rules, while keeping it separate.
Team vs Team will likely be added to Arena. Duels will likely be added to Arena. What else do you need for it to be 'fun'?
Blizzard isn't neglecting PvP, they are just not copying Diablo 2 and calling it a new game. Instead, they are taking the time to implement an integrated system for PvP that separates it from the core design of the game...PvM.
I don't know about PoE - but there's a pretty big gap in the market for an arpg with a strong pvp element. Kind of strange how those players are totally abandoned.
They aren't 'totally abandoned'. In fact, Blizzard is giving PvP more development in Diablo 3 then it has in any of the previous Diablo games. Arena allows for multiple types of structured PvP. Now that Blizzard has pushed it till after launch, they can give it a good amount of focus on it's own and make sure that its very fun. It's not going to be some super balanced, hardcore PvP. Its going to be casual, fun, fast paces, hack and slash PvP.
Honestly, I have no idea how you could say that Blizzard has abandoned PvP. This is a PvM focused game, that they will be devoting months of time integrating a full PvP system into. How is that abandoning?
In my mind. Basic PvP would just be a 1v1 duel scenario in an arena server with a friend. Something akin to that.
You might have a point though. I did assume they had a basic system on circumstantial evidence (videos of players running around in arenas killing each other will do this) - and that it was Blizzards policy of 100% polished mechanics that stopped even the basics being added to the game.
Yeah... I really don't see how they wouldn't have a basic system operational.
Sorry, but you're making assumptions again. PvP has yet to be fully part of Diablo 3 yet at all from what I understand. They had an experimental version of PvP that was team elimination that they showcased at Blizzcon. Since then though, they've announced a change towards a point-based team deathmatch style play.
That system is still being designed from what I understand, as they focused their development team on getting the release ready. So, they had no system to just plug into the game. PvP has been last on the to-do list for Diablo 3 from all evidence I can find, so it makes sense that they don't have it ready.
As far as a Friend vs Friend, I assume that'll actually be part of the PvP patch. Seems quite silly to not let you duel your friends, and they've said they want to have a means to duel as well.
Genesis:
I'd like to know where you got information that they had basic PvP functionality working currently? They had a previous Arena system that they showcased back at Blizzcon, but they don't have some kind of world-PvP system from what I understand. The Arena system has changed quite a bit from its previous incarnation from what I understand (point-based team deathmatch instead of elimination), and I'm sure the matchmaking system wasn't complete back at Blizzcon either.
Sorry, but it won't be happening. Blizzard outright stated that they will not be adding world PvP, neither as hostility or dueling.
It's not 'fail', its different. In practice, not having game lists works very well. You can make a private game and invite friends, or you can join public games and be matched with other players around your level. It honestly plays out very well in practice.
A private Arena with an FFA option is the best option I can see for fully customized PvP matches. It'd be the exact same system as public Arena matches, but just let the creator invite...simple and effective. Since they could add a spectator system for private matches, it could actually allow for streaming/commentating on matches. All without really affecting PvM that much, seems like a win-win.
There are no game lists, so adding a PvP flag would also require adding a whole new game type, queue system, etc. Since Arena is the goal for PvP, it makes more sense for them to invest the time into Arena instead. Public / private PvP games would be the way to go. Private would let you invite the players before entering the chosen Arena. With a FFA Arena and private PvP games, players could duel and/or create their own rules for an Arena match.
It'd be pretty easy to just have a private / public Arena system. Make a private game, you have to invite everyone. Make a public game and your team queues vs others. The wouldn't need a ton of options for Arena games either. Remember, Diablo 3 isn't about heavily competitive PvP. The PvP will (and in my opinion, should be) more casual. A simple method of public/private arena games minic the public/private PvM games nicely, while letting people duel or team vs team. Heck, you could even add spectator slots in private games to let people do commentating and streaming.
Sure, I don't personally want to see them devote a ton of resources towards competitive PvP...as it WILL hurt the development of PvM (WoW is a good example, or SC2 where the campaign suffered). That doesn't mean I'm against PvP completely. I'd love to have the ability to duel friends, other teams, etc. I just don't want to see an expectation of competitive balance, tons of options, etc for PvP. Blizzard has stated that their focus was PvM and its what a majority of us want to see more of.
I'd rather get a new event a month, then more PvP balance. Especially in a game where the goal is killing monsters and going through the story a million times. That really is the goal of Diablo 3. It may sound silly to enjoy running the content over and over like that...but it is what MANY of us want out of the game...and Blizzard listened.
On /duel. Blizzard said they have a method to kick players, but won't be rolling it into launch. This means we WON'T have a means to kick people from public games at launch. In addition, if you and your friend duel in a public game me and another are in, how do we kick you? Vote kick wouldn't work. There are no 'named' games...so we cannot make game specifically for dueling, except for private games (negating the point of dueling in world vs dueling in arena). So, how will /duel benefit the game?
As for the issue of extending the life of the game...you know what would extend the life of the game as well? More PvM content. They could easily add additional random events, quests, etc on a monthly or bi-monthly bases to add more replay to the game. In fact, as the majority of players prefer PvM (as you say yourself), this direction would appeal to more of the community as well. Now, that doesn't mean I don't think PvP should get some love...but I don't see a need for all these competitive features such as public stats, ladders, etc.
P.S. - Blizzard hasn't specifically stated we WILL be able to duel. Jay did say he wanted to have a duel feature, however. Since Arena is their focus for PvP, it only makes sense for said duel capability to be implemented via the Arena system.
Please explain how it'd be a positive feature for the game and community, instead of insulting other posters. We've explained WHY its not beneficial to the community. You've not actually given good reasons it could be good for the community. It's not about being 'afraid' at all. It's about not wanting to be pestered for duels in the middle of a PvM run. Also, due to the way that Diablo 3 is balanced, having two players stop to duel basically puts advancement to a halt...likely causing those two extra players to leave and make a new game. This will create a void between those that like PvP and those that like PvM... the same way that it happened in Diablo 2. Am I missing something?...do you have a reason that'll actually be a positive?...I'd love to hear it!
Blizzard has already stated a desire to implement duels as part of PvP. This will likely be in the form of queuing vs your friend the same way you queue vs Arena. Granted, they haven't made any official announcements as to how the new PvP system will work completely...but they do know that people want duels and have said they want to offer a way to do so.
If you're not going to join public games to duel. Then why do you need in-world duels at all? Its very likely that Arena will have team vs team and duels. This means you could very easily duel your friends. Why do you need it in-world? What benefit does it offer overall? I'm curious as many people have said to bring hostility back, in various ways....or complained that without hostility PvP would suck...but none of them have really explained WHY. They also haven't explained WHY it'd benefit the community as a whole, making it a good idea for Blizzard to actually do.
A mid-game duel option would be ruining the fun of the other two people in the game while they wait for the duel to finish. Not a wise option to be honest. The game is designed in such a way that you need 3-4 players to beat some of the monster pulls if you have 4 people in the game. This means that if you want to duel me in a public game, we hold up everyone else in order to kill each other.
No, Arena is the best place for PvP in Diablo 3. The game was tuned around PvM and the only place for PvP to fit in at this point is a separate Arena. I don't really see how you could possibly think otherwise, either.
I love how you insult those that don't want gief-PvP by calling them crybabies. Yet, it seems like the PvP crowd are the ones complaining. The PvM crowd here seems to only attempt to explain WHY your desires for PvP would be BAD for the game. This isn't a game that is designed around PvP. Its not supposed to have competitively balanced PvP with a ton of statistics and PvP features. This is a single player online game that gives you the option to play through or trade with other players. As an added BONUS they are adding a integrated Arena system that will offer matchmaking and tweaks to balance some abilities towards PvP. Despite getting a full PvP system in a PvM focused game, we still see a ton of complaints from PvP people...but us PvM players are the crybabies?
I haven't posted insults, used derogatory terms, etc...why must the other side use them? Could you perhaps try to give a good reason why your desired PvP features would be good for a PvM focused game and it's community?
Just because the game has more of a focus to casual gaming does not mean you cannot compete. You'll race friends and strangers to get to lvl 60 first, have more PvP wins, get better gear, do MF runs faster, etc. There will be competition, to say otherwise is just silly.
However, Blizzard has stated quite specifically that they are not looking at a highly competitive environment for PvP. This has been stated and the topic beaten to death. World PvP doesn't foster anything beneficial over arena really (other then benefiting griefers). I could see them adding an in-world arena where players could go and be flagged for PvP. This would allow them to duel with their own rules, while keeping it separate.
Team vs Team will likely be added to Arena. Duels will likely be added to Arena. What else do you need for it to be 'fun'?
Blizzard isn't neglecting PvP, they are just not copying Diablo 2 and calling it a new game. Instead, they are taking the time to implement an integrated system for PvP that separates it from the core design of the game...PvM.
This...is Diablo 3 a game primarily focused on PvM. This isn't PoE...so...what relevance does PoE have here?
They aren't 'totally abandoned'. In fact, Blizzard is giving PvP more development in Diablo 3 then it has in any of the previous Diablo games. Arena allows for multiple types of structured PvP. Now that Blizzard has pushed it till after launch, they can give it a good amount of focus on it's own and make sure that its very fun. It's not going to be some super balanced, hardcore PvP. Its going to be casual, fun, fast paces, hack and slash PvP.
Honestly, I have no idea how you could say that Blizzard has abandoned PvP. This is a PvM focused game, that they will be devoting months of time integrating a full PvP system into. How is that abandoning?
Sorry, but you're making assumptions again. PvP has yet to be fully part of Diablo 3 yet at all from what I understand. They had an experimental version of PvP that was team elimination that they showcased at Blizzcon. Since then though, they've announced a change towards a point-based team deathmatch style play.
That system is still being designed from what I understand, as they focused their development team on getting the release ready. So, they had no system to just plug into the game. PvP has been last on the to-do list for Diablo 3 from all evidence I can find, so it makes sense that they don't have it ready.
As far as a Friend vs Friend, I assume that'll actually be part of the PvP patch. Seems quite silly to not let you duel your friends, and they've said they want to have a means to duel as well.
I'd like to know where you got information that they had basic PvP functionality working currently? They had a previous Arena system that they showcased back at Blizzcon, but they don't have some kind of world-PvP system from what I understand. The Arena system has changed quite a bit from its previous incarnation from what I understand (point-based team deathmatch instead of elimination), and I'm sure the matchmaking system wasn't complete back at Blizzcon either.
So...how what PvP system are you speaking of?